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Hans

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Since: Apr 30, 2004
Posts: 11



(Msg. 16) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:35 pm
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It was the SAME X-Mas party! No mention of the fantastic chips and giving out
spuds like they were lumps of coal. The stories need to harmonized.


Uri David Akavia wrote:
> You mean the fact that potatoes are a rarity in "When the Chips are Down",
> and in "Here Comes Santa Claus", after, after the Uptimer boys had
> organized a "let's get everybody to like potatoes", an event which
> succeeded (getting people to ask about seeds in preparation for growing
> them), then potatoes are being given as X-Mas gifts, at the specific
> request of a popular Uptimer (Julie). (All of which happens one year after
> they got the GV population to like potatoes)
>
> Gee, I can really see the flaws in that.
>
> You can argue that convincing people to like potatoes wouldn't have
> worked. You can argue that people wouldn't have accepted X-Mas (it
> existed, but not as a big gifting holiday) but you'd be on shaky ground.
> If people managed to accept the existence of GV, what's so hard about
> deciding to bring gifts, to humor one of these strange uptimers?
>
> Sheesh.
>
> On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 07:04:39 +0000, Hans wrote:
>
>
>>Potatoes as X-Mas gifts... before X-mas was in wide use or a custom.
>>
>>
>
>

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drorer

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Since: Mar 14, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 17) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 5:35 pm
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<Hans.TakeThisOut@Kill-All-Spammers.com> wrote in message
news:r7wkc.58133$%y3.54650@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
> It was the SAME X-Mas party! No mention of the fantastic chips and giving out
> spuds like they were lumps of coal. The stories need to harmonized.
>
Too true! Which only points out the fact that DW and EF both need strong editors, which
Baen seems unable to provide.
At this point in their careers both authors need to back off from their contract
commitments and start attending writing workshops!
Obviously I don't care for any of EF's writing so far and feel that DW's writing is
slipping. Both have the potential to be good authors, however, if they continue to forge
ahead without learning anything about character development or story development, both
will eventually fade away due lack of reader interest and declining book sales. It may
take a while but considering the expense of printing books, a publishing house will not
subsidize a writer who's books do not sell!

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phillies

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Since: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 74



(Msg. 18) Posted: Fri Apr 30, 2004 7:21 pm
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On Fri, 30 Apr 2004, David wrote:
 > Obviously I don't care for any of EF's writing so far and feel that DW's
 > writing is slipping. Both have the potential to be good authors,
 > however, if they continue to forge ahead without learning anything about
 > character development or story development, both will eventually fade
 > away due lack of reader interest and declining book sales. It may take a
 > while but considering the expense of printing books, a publishing house
 > will not subsidize a writer who's books do not sell!

However, you are not the only customer, and I gather that sales are doing
well. Indeed, I gather that if the authors could double their production
rate, sales would do even better.

George<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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uridavid

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Since: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 38



(Msg. 19) Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 1:22 am
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On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 17:35:19 +0000, Hans wrote:

> It was the SAME X-Mas party! No mention of the fantastic chips and
> giving out spuds like they were lumps of coal. The stories need to
> harmonized.
>
>
Let's see -
In the "Chips" Larry mentions that it starts right after campaigning
series, Hans was badly wounded a few months earlier, and so forth.
Conclusion, these happens as soon as the Americans have landed in Germany
- just after the ring of fire (December 1632 or possibly 1631).

In "Santa" the first paragraph says
When Julie Mackay initially proposed it, the First Annual Grantville
Christmas party seemed a bit of unnecessary fuss to Mike Stearns. Not to
mention that it was a misnomer: it would actually be the second Christmas
since the Ring of Fire. In December of 1632, Mike had vastly more
important things to think about, not the least of which was the future of
their infant United States in war-torn Europe. ...Julie, heading toward
motherhood herself in the coming new year,

So the story "Santa" takes place at least 1 year after the "Chips". She
met Alex Mackay a few months after they arrived, it took a few months for
them to get together, and it (usually) takes several months until a
pregnant woman is an expectant mother.
Yes, they do contradict each other on the existence of a Christmas party,
a problem which can be easily resolved - the first one was simply
Christmas, the second one was a Christmas party. However, if you insist,
this is a contradiction. The stories don't take place in the same time.

Have you actually read the books before bitching?
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uridavid

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Since: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 38



(Msg. 20) Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 1:41 am
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On Sun, 02 May 2004 01:22:04 +0300, Uri David Akavia wrote:

> Have you actually read the books before bitching?

Yes, they could have been edited better, but the timeline sequence is
clear, and the problems aren't with the fan stories anymore than the
professional stories.
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brian_mcdonald

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Since: Sep 02, 2003
Posts: 23



(Msg. 21) Posted: Sun May 02, 2004 5:07 am
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On Fri, 30 Apr 2004 15:28:24 -0400, "David" <drorer.TakeThisOut@fuse.net> wrote:

It may
>take a while but considering the expense of printing books, a publishing house will not
>subsidize a writer who's books do not sell!
>
>
the only real flaw with your argument is that their sales appear to be
doing just fine.
i personally like the datadumps and historical backgrounders so count
me in for the duration.
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drorer

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Since: Mar 14, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 22) Posted: Mon May 03, 2004 8:59 pm
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"George D. Phillies" <phillies.TakeThisOut@WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0404301620580.6063-100000@ccc3.wpi.edu...
>
Indeed, I gather that if the authors could double their production
> rate, sales would do even better.
>
> George
>
Sales might do better in the short run, however, the drop-off in quality (which is already
evident) would eventually cause their reader base to fall off.
Quantity, of a lesser quality, is not better.
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wuggadad1

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Since: Jan 05, 2004
Posts: 4



(Msg. 23) Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 2:50 pm
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<Hans.RemoveThis@Kill-All-Spammers.com> wrote:

 > You're right! ... Sorta! Actually everything is crap... first Big Bang
 > crap and then super nova crap ... several super nova craps actually.
 >
 > However as far and the 1632 series is concerned... It has proven to be
 > thoughtless to an unbelievable extreme!
 >
 > It is totally unbelievable that you have someone who SHOULD have died from
 > hypothermia resurrected and acting as a spy. (Get this straight! There
 > were NO boats in the area after the sea battle that could have rescued
 > anyone as ALL ships had been scared off and headed south!

The ships did not immediately flee. It is reasonable that at least some
attempt was made to pick up their own sailors from the destroyed boats,
even if they were fleeing. And Eddie could have ended up fairly close
to one of the ships.

There were a lot of unlikely things that happened, on both sides. The
odds of downing the plane were low, the odds of the rockets being that
effective were low. So what?

Unlikely things _do_ happen in war. And why not complain about the
completely unbelievable premise, the alien art sculpture that affects
reality.

Or complain about other unlikely survivors, like Honor Harrington
surviving the crash of her shuttle in Honor in Exile. Why not
complain about what shenanigans David Weber went through so that Honor
could make her dramatic appearance in Trevor's Star after escaping
from Cerberus?

Duh! It is a _story_! Implausible and unlikely events happen that
the characters respond to.

Michael Sandy<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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drorer

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Since: Mar 14, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 24) Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:29 pm
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"Michael Sandy" <wuggadad.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1gdb9yf.indnmxy7ptcqN%wuggadad@comcast.net...
 > <Hans.RemoveThis@Kill-All-Spammers.com> wrote:
 >
  > Duh! It is a _story_! Implausible and unlikely events happen that
 > the characters respond to.
 >
 > Michael Sandy

There is that thing called "suspension of disbelief" and certain authors under discussion
tend to call upon it to an excessive degree!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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all_games1

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Since: Jan 06, 2004
Posts: 87



(Msg. 25) Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 7:29 pm
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"David" <drorer.RemoveThis@fuse.net> wrote in message
news:40994eb1$0$82216$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net...
> > Duh! It is a _story_! Implausible and unlikely events happen that
> > the characters respond to.
>
> There is that thing called "suspension of disbelief" and certain authors
under discussion
> tend to call upon it to an excessive degree!

It's the nature of fiction to require a lot of supended disbelief...that's
why it's fiction. The more outre the fiction, the more you have to
disbelieve.

Andrew L
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phillies

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Since: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 74



(Msg. 26) Posted: Wed May 05, 2004 10:56 pm
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On Wed, 5 May 2004, Michael Sandy wrote:

 > <Hans RemoveThis @Kill-All-Spammers.com> wrote:
 >
  > > You're right! ... Sorta! Actually everything is crap... first Big Bang
  > > crap and then super nova crap ... several super nova craps actually.
  > >
  > > However as far and the 1632 series is concerned... It has proven to be
  > > thoughtless to an unbelievable extreme!
  > >
  > > It is totally unbelievable that you have someone who SHOULD have died from
  > > hypothermia resurrected and acting as a spy. (Get this straight! There
  > > were NO boats in the area after the sea battle that could have rescued
  > > anyone as ALL ships had been scared off and headed south!

This is not quite accurate for the simple reason that prior to leaving
the area it was necessary for the Danish Fleet to turn around. Depending
on bearings relative to the winds thiw would require either turning across
the wind and possible being left in irons or making a very large turn in
the other direction, with a need to rest the sails every 45 degrees or
so. Square riggers do ot turn like modern small sailboats. Now, the
Danes were better than the 18th century Turks, who had at least one major
ship capsize while trying to reverse course--or so I have read--but we are
talking the better fraction of an hour, during which time putting boats
over to rescue survivors would have occurred.


 >
 > The ships did not immediately flee. It is reasonable that at least some
 > attempt was made to pick up their own sailors from the destroyed boats,
 > even if they were fleeing. And Eddie could have ended up fairly close
 > to one of the ships.
 >
 > There were a lot of unlikely things that happened, on both sides. The
 > odds of downing the plane were low, the odds of the rockets being that
 > effective were low. So what?
 >
 > Unlikely things _do_ happen in war. And why not complain about the
 > completely unbelievable premise, the alien art sculpture that affects
 > reality.
 >
 > Or complain about other unlikely survivors, like Honor Harrington
 > surviving the crash of her shuttle in Honor in Exile. Why not
 > complain about what shenanigans David Weber went through so that Honor
 > could make her dramatic appearance in Trevor's Star after escaping
 > from Cerberus?
 >
 > Duh! It is a _story_! Implausible and unlikely events happen that
 > the characters respond to.
 >
 > Michael Sandy
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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drorer

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Since: Mar 14, 2004
Posts: 33



(Msg. 27) Posted: Fri May 07, 2004 4:57 pm
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"Andrew Lannon" <ALL_games.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:109itev2f7uom77@corp.supernews.com...
> "David" <drorer.RemoveThis@fuse.net> wrote in message
> news:40994eb1$0$82216$a0465688@nnrp.fuse.net...
> > > Duh! It is a _story_! Implausible and unlikely events happen that
> > > the characters respond to.
> >
> > There is that thing called "suspension of disbelief" and certain authors
> under discussion
> > tend to call upon it to an excessive degree!
>
> It's the nature of fiction to require a lot of supended disbelief...that's
> why it's fiction. The more outre the fiction, the more you have to
> disbelieve.
>
> Andrew L
>
You mean like your getting the point!
One can suspend disbelief, however, when the author invokes dus ex machina too heavily,
disbelief unsuspends.
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eflint

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Since: Oct 14, 2003
Posts: 13



(Msg. 28) Posted: Sat May 08, 2004 5:16 am
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 > <Hans.DeleteThis@Kill-All-Spammers.com> wrote:
 >
  > > You're right! ... Sorta! Actually everything is crap... first Big Bang
  > > crap and then super nova crap ... several super nova craps actually.
  > >
  > > However as far and the 1632 series is concerned... It has proven to be
  > > thoughtless to an unbelievable extreme!
  > >
  > > It is totally unbelievable that you have someone who SHOULD have died
from
  > > hypothermia resurrected and acting as a spy. (Get this straight! There
  > > were NO boats in the area after the sea battle that could have rescued
  > > anyone as ALL ships had been scared off and headed south!


I normally stay out of these discussions, because I think people have the
right to express their dislike for something I write without me trying to
argue with them about it. I do, however, get annoyed when a critic claims
something is a "fact" which is nothing of the sort. With regard to the
specific issue of whether Eddie could have been rescued, the novel
specifically and clearly establishes that most of the Danish ships remained
in the area for some time after the Outlaw collided with the one Danish
warship, and some of them were engaging in rescue operations. I've copied
below the relevant passage from chapter 47.

Someone can still argue that it's highly unlikely that Eddie would survive
the episode, and I would not argue the point -- in fact, the novel ALSO
makes that quite clear. Simpson is astonished when he discovers that Eddie
survived, since the odds against that happening were extremely high.

So what? War is _full_ of things happening against the odds. And while
history books normally don't concentrate on all the oddball stuff, that is
in fact typically what _fiction_ about wars concentrates on. That's
inherent in the nature of story-telling, for Pete's sake. People usually
aren't interested in hearing about humdrum routine events when they want to
be entertained.

Eric

PS. My critic can't even keep his points of the compass straight. Even if
it were true that all the Danish ships had been immediately "scared off" --
which it isn't, as the passage quoted below makes crystal clear -- they
certainly wouldn't have "headed south." South was... Wismar, where they
just got driven off from. They retreated where they came from, which was to
the northwest.

"Hans! Hans, damn it-talk to me!" Jesse half-shouted into the
microphone as he pushed his own aircraft as hard as he could towards the
clouds of smoke rising from the sea.

There was no answer, and Jesse's jaw clenched tight.

He didn't have a complete picture of what was happening, but the
radioed reports from Louie Tillman had told him enough. Eddie and Larry's
initial strike had been far more successful than Jesse had ever allowed
himself to hope... only to disintegrate into disaster. The Outlaw was
gone-that much Tillman knew for certain-and with it both of the boys. But
that wasn't what frightened Jesse, because there was nothing he could do
about it. It was too late for that. But Louie had also reported Hans'
insane, low-level attack on the Danish ship which had destroyed the Outlaw.
Hans hadn't reported. In fact, he had yet to transmit a single word.

"Hans, I know you can fucking well hear me!" Jesse snapped. "Now answer
me!"

Silence. But he was close enough now to see the smoke and wreckage to
which the invasion force had been reduced. Some of the Danes had already put
about, clawing back towards Luebeck and away from the demons which had
ravaged them. Others looked as if they were trying to continue towards
Wismar, and a few of them were engaged in frantic rescue operations, trying
to snatch men from the icy waters before hypothermia killed them. But most
of them seemed to be milling around in confusion, still shocked and confused
by what had happened. He could see the remaining speedboats hovering between
the invaders and Wismar, and even as he watched one of the brigs which had
been holding its course turned away rather than face them.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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uridavid

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Since: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 38



(Msg. 29) Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:47 am
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On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:52:46 +0000, Hans wrote:

 > Not to have collected all computers and computer equipment and supplies
 > and secured them in a high security site is short sighted to the nth
 > degree. This is non replaceable technology that was designed as
 > throw-away goods!

I've thought about this sentence and I have a question for the newsgroup.

Let's ignore personal property laws.

What can you do with computers that you can't do with a pen and a piece of
paper (if you know the algorithm)?

I mean, for example, it seems to me that having a computer print out
accurate sinus tables (for those of you in the group who don't remember
what they are - simple 2d tables containing sinus values for various
angles), and writing down the algorithm that was used to calculate it, is
far more useful than using Excel to calculate sinus whenever you need it.
Same for creating graphs - just write down the statistical algorithms for
determining where the line should be and do your calculations. And so on
for accounting and so forth.

If you manage to get printing from a computer to metal printing plates,
this might be important, to salvage irreplaceable images.

But what do you need computers for in 163x?

Yours,

Uri David<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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mchase

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Since: Sep 07, 2003
Posts: 24



(Msg. 30) Posted: Mon May 10, 2004 1:47 am
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On Sun, 09 May 2004 22:47:23 +0300, Uri David Akavia wrote:

 > On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 09:52:46 +0000, Hans wrote:

 > What can you do with computers that you can't do with a pen and a piece
 > of paper (if you know the algorithm)?

Nothing, but it is a lot faster so you can run a lot of calculations in a
short enough time for the results to be useful.

 > But what do you need computers for in 163x?

For text, they are mostly useful if you want to search a large corpus in a
reasonable time. Spreadsheets are very helpful if you want to try many
sets of values in a reasonable amount of time.

We put men on the moon using sliderules and building-sized computers with
days and weeks needed for some of the calculations. They could now be done
on my laptop in a few minutes or less once they are set up.

--
Mac :})
** I usually forward private questions to the appropriate mail list. **
Ask Smarter: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html" target="_blank">http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html</a>
Give a hobbit a fish and he eats fish for a day.
Give a hobbit a ring and he eats fish for an age.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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