Apollo Ship designs

On Nov 8, 9:38 pm, Ben H <cataphractla....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 8:09 pm, "rlbell.ns...@gmail.com" <rlbell.ns....RemoveThis@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 8, 9:23 am, Ben H <cataphractla....RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 8, 9:04 am, Offbreed <offbreed_....RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Ben H wrote:
> > > > > It just suddenly occurred to me that the Star Kingdom now has the
> > > > > ability to engage enemies close to the hyper barrier while RMN ships
> > > > > are still close enough to a planet that any attempt to fire on an RMN
> > > > > ship could be construed as a violation of the Eridani Act. I can't
> > > > > imagine the Manties actually doing it, but you know, as a last ditch
> > > > > maneuver, it might work out okay. If nothing else, the enemy's Tac
> > > > > officer is going to be alot more conservative when drawing up
> > > > > targeting solutions.
> > > > > Has the Wizard made any mention of this?
>
> > > > That's going to annoy the people on the planet.
>
> > > It doesn't seem to be the thing to do around Alliance planets, but if
> > > say the Manties were to capture the starsystem of Some Foreign Power,
> > > the Foreign Power Space Navy could be given pause if the Manties took
> > > up a position in the high orbital. What could the FPSN do at that
> > > point? Unless of course they were Frontier Security...
>
> > The RMN would be wise not give an enemy fleet such a bad set of
> > alternatives. There is the terrible possibilty of the fleet commander
> > deciding to be hung as a ram, instead of a sheep. Formidable as the
> > defences of Manticore Home System are, they are hopelessly inadequite
> > to defend the system against an attacker hellbent on violating the
> > Eridani Edict. A single cruiser coming out of hyper and unloading its
> > magazines of single drive missiles on ballistic courses to Manticore,
> > Sphinx, and Gryphon will lay waste to vast tracts of the planets.
> > Without the grav signature of the impeller, or emissions from the
> > seeker, missiles are virtually undetectable at interplanetary
> > distance, so stopping any of them will be a problem. They will be
> > going at at 90+% of lightspeed, and only lightspeed sensors can detect
> > them.
>
> > The unstated reasoning behind the edict is that there is no way to
> > prevent the ploughing under of a complete biosphere by relativistic
> > missiles, so the Eridani Edict is in place to keep the M in MAD.
>
> As I said, this wouldn't be a tactic for use in home systems.
> But let me provide a hypothetical situation (to all you people who
> whine that the Peeps aren't the enemy anymore... NYEH!) :
> The Manties assemble a division of BBs with Apollo capabilities and
> launch them on a raid of the Chantilly system. The system defenses are
> picked off from range by the BBs, who then move in on the orbitals.
> The system defenders did however manage to get a courier off. Next
> thing you know a couple of divisions of SDs arrive.
> The SDs are now faced both with potential violations of the Eridani
> act, along with nuking their own planet.
> The Manties however are in the position where civilian casualties of a
> foreign democratic power are ultimately the responsibility of said
> civilians for allowing their government to engage in acts of war
> against another sovereign power. If the Chantilly system planet gets
> toasted, that's a shame, but its not like the _Manties_ did it. Oh,
> and the whole time the SDs are wrangling with the decision of whether
> or not to fire, they're inside the Manties missle envelope.


The RMN does not want to play that game, because the peeps have more
hulls and can play the same game at any alliance planet outside of
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

On Nov 8, 9:38 pm, Ben H <cataphractla... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 8, 8:09 pm, "rlbell.ns...@gmail.com" <rlbell.ns... RemoveThis @gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Nov 8, 9:23 am, Ben H <cataphractla... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 8, 9:04 am, Offbreed <offbreed_... RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Ben H wrote:
> > > > > It just suddenly occurred to me that the Star Kingdom now has the
> > > > > ability to engage enemies close to the hyper barrier while RMN ships
> > > > > are still close enough to a planet that any attempt to fire on an RMN
> > > > > ship could be construed as a violation of the Eridani Act. I can't
> > > > > imagine the Manties actually doing it, but you know, as a last ditch
> > > > > maneuver, it might work out okay. If nothing else, the enemy's Tac
> > > > > officer is going to be alot more conservative when drawing up
> > > > > targeting solutions.
> > > > > Has the Wizard made any mention of this?
>
> > > > That's going to annoy the people on the planet.
>
> > > It doesn't seem to be the thing to do around Alliance planets, but if
> > > say the Manties were to capture the starsystem of Some Foreign Power,
> > > the Foreign Power Space Navy could be given pause if the Manties took
> > > up a position in the high orbital. What could the FPSN do at that
> > > point? Unless of course they were Frontier Security...
>
> > The RMN would be wise not give an enemy fleet such a bad set of
> > alternatives. There is the terrible possibilty of the fleet commander
> > deciding to be hung as a ram, instead of a sheep. Formidable as the
> > defences of Manticore Home System are, they are hopelessly inadequite
> > to defend the system against an attacker hellbent on violating the
> > Eridani Edict. A single cruiser coming out of hyper and unloading its
> > magazines of single drive missiles on ballistic courses to Manticore,
> > Sphinx, and Gryphon will lay waste to vast tracts of the planets.
> > Without the grav signature of the impeller, or emissions from the
> > seeker, missiles are virtually undetectable at interplanetary
> > distance, so stopping any of them will be a problem. They will be
> > going at at 90+% of lightspeed, and only lightspeed sensors can detect
> > them.
>
> > The unstated reasoning behind the edict is that there is no way to
> > prevent the ploughing under of a complete biosphere by relativistic
> > missiles, so the Eridani Edict is in place to keep the M in MAD.
>
> As I said, this wouldn't be a tactic for use in home systems.
> But let me provide a hypothetical situation (to all you people who
> whine that the Peeps aren't the enemy anymore... NYEH!) :
> The Manties assemble a division of BBs with Apollo capabilities and
> launch them on a raid of the Chantilly system. The system defenses are
> picked off from range by the BBs, who then move in on the orbitals.
> The system defenders did however manage to get a courier off. Next
> thing you know a couple of divisions of SDs arrive.
> The SDs are now faced both with potential violations of the Eridani
> act, along with nuking their own planet.
> The Manties however are in the position where civilian casualties of a
> foreign democratic power are ultimately the responsibility of said
> civilians for allowing their government to engage in acts of war
> against another sovereign power. If the Chantilly system planet gets
> toasted, that's a shame, but its not like the _Manties_ did it. Oh,
> and the whole time the SDs are wrangling with the decision of whether
> or not to fire, they're inside the Manties missle envelope.


I bet that the Eridani Edict only applies if you lay waste to someone
else's planet. I would also bet that Apollo missiles damaged enough
to be unable to engage a target will still do a number on a planet
(that expanding ball of plasma that is inneffectual against a sidewall
is still at 0.97c, so the tactic can be employed against the RMN by
staying close in to the planet.

The Eridani Edict seems to allow for collateral damage. In At All
Costs, the planetary defences do not join the fun to encourage the RHN
to not fire at them. If firing back at them would cause the RHN to
violate the Edict, this would not have been a concern.
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:01:21 -0500, "Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@biteme2.com>
wrote:

>
>"Ben H" <cataphractlance.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:1194583081.048352.40750@57g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...
>> On Nov 8, 8:09 pm, "rlbell.ns...@gmail.com" <rlbell.ns....DeleteThis@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>> On Nov 8, 9:23 am, Ben H <cataphractla....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > On Nov 8, 9:04 am, Offbreed <offbreed_....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > Ben H wrote:
>>> > > > It just suddenly occurred to me that the Star Kingdom now has the
>>> > > > ability to engage enemies close to the hyper barrier while RMN
>>> > > > ships
>>> > > > are still close enough to a planet that any attempt to fire on an
>>> > > > RMN
>>> > > > ship could be construed as a violation of the Eridani Act. I can't
>>> > > > imagine the Manties actually doing it, but you know, as a last
>>> > > > ditch
>>> > > > maneuver, it might work out okay. If nothing else, the enemy's Tac
>>> > > > officer is going to be alot more conservative when drawing up
>>> > > > targeting solutions.
>>> > > > Has the Wizard made any mention of this?
>>>
>>> > > That's going to annoy the people on the planet.
>>>
>>> > It doesn't seem to be the thing to do around Alliance planets, but if
>>> > say the Manties were to capture the starsystem of Some Foreign Power,
>>> > the Foreign Power Space Navy could be given pause if the Manties took
>>> > up a position in the high orbital. What could the FPSN do at that
>>> > point? Unless of course they were Frontier Security...
>>>
>>> The RMN would be wise not give an enemy fleet such a bad set of
>>> alternatives. There is the terrible possibilty of the fleet commander
>>> deciding to be hung as a ram, instead of a sheep. Formidable as the
>>> defences of Manticore Home System are, they are hopelessly inadequite
>>> to defend the system against an attacker hellbent on violating the
>>> Eridani Edict. A single cruiser coming out of hyper and unloading its
>>> magazines of single drive missiles on ballistic courses to Manticore,
>>> Sphinx, and Gryphon will lay waste to vast tracts of the planets.
>>> Without the grav signature of the impeller, or emissions from the
>>> seeker, missiles are virtually undetectable at interplanetary
>>> distance, so stopping any of them will be a problem. They will be
>>> going at at 90+% of lightspeed, and only lightspeed sensors can detect
>>> them.
>>>
>>> The unstated reasoning behind the edict is that there is no way to
>>> prevent the ploughing under of a complete biosphere by relativistic
>>> missiles, so the Eridani Edict is in place to keep the M in MAD.
>>
>> As I said, this wouldn't be a tactic for use in home systems.
>> But let me provide a hypothetical situation (to all you people who
>> whine that the Peeps aren't the enemy anymore... NYEH!) :
>> The Manties assemble a division of BBs with Apollo capabilities and
>> launch them on a raid of the Chantilly system. The system defenses are
>> picked off from range by the BBs, who then move in on the orbitals.
>> The system defenders did however manage to get a courier off. Next
>> thing you know a couple of divisions of SDs arrive.
>> The SDs are now faced both with potential violations of the Eridani
>> act, along with nuking their own planet.
>> The Manties however are in the position where civilian casualties of a
>> foreign democratic power are ultimately the responsibility of said
>> civilians for allowing their government to engage in acts of war
>> against another sovereign power. If the Chantilly system planet gets
>> toasted, that's a shame, but its not like the _Manties_ did it. Oh,
>> and the whole time the SDs are wrangling with the decision of whether
>> or not to fire, they're inside the Manties missle envelope.
>>
>
>It sounds to me like you're describing a futuristic "human shield" tactic.
>Well, maybe not a "shield" exactly, but sort of like trying to fight a
>battle
>in the middle of an urban area, where civilian casualties become difficult
>to avoid in many pitched battles.
>
>This sort of situation sounds like something that the RMN would try to
>avoid, although with the above scenario, I suppose that there may be times
>when it occurs even when you are not intending to use it.

Yeah, it's a version of human shield tactics. Despicable.
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:26:29 -0000, "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com"
<rlbell.nsuid.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>I bet that the Eridani Edict only applies if you lay waste to someone
>else's planet. I would also bet that Apollo missiles damaged enough
>to be unable to engage a target will still do a number on a planet
>(that expanding ball of plasma that is inneffectual against a sidewall
>is still at 0.97c, so the tactic can be employed against the RMN by
>staying close in to the planet.

Some time back we were working out the effect of Ghost Rider missiles.
At burnout they carry 1/10 the energy of the dinosaur killer. *PER
MISSILE*.

How are you getting .97c for Apollo, though?
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

On Fri, 9 Nov 2007 13:01:21 -0500, "Fred Burton" <fburton.TakeThisOut@biteme2.com>
wrote:


>>> The unstated reasoning behind the edict is that there is no way to
>>> prevent the ploughing under of a complete biosphere by relativistic
>>> missiles, so the Eridani Edict is in place to keep the M in MAD.
>>
>> As I said, this wouldn't be a tactic for use in home systems.
>> But let me provide a hypothetical situation (to all you people who
>> whine that the Peeps aren't the enemy anymore... NYEH!) :
>> The Manties assemble a division of BBs with Apollo capabilities and
>> launch them on a raid of the Chantilly system. The system defenses are
>> picked off from range by the BBs, who then move in on the orbitals.
>> The system defenders did however manage to get a courier off. Next
>> thing you know a couple of divisions of SDs arrive.
>> The SDs are now faced both with potential violations of the Eridani
>> act, along with nuking their own planet.
>> The Manties however are in the position where civilian casualties of a
>> foreign democratic power are ultimately the responsibility of said
>> civilians for allowing their government to engage in acts of war
>> against another sovereign power. If the Chantilly system planet gets
>> toasted, that's a shame, but its not like the _Manties_ did it. Oh,
>> and the whole time the SDs are wrangling with the decision of whether
>> or not to fire, they're inside the Manties missle envelope.
>>
>
>It sounds to me like you're describing a futuristic "human shield" tactic.
>Well, maybe not a "shield" exactly, but sort of like trying to fight a
>battle
>in the middle of an urban area, where civilian casualties become difficult
>to avoid in many pitched battles.
>
>This sort of situation sounds like something that the RMN would try to
>avoid, although with the above scenario, I suppose that there may be times
>when it occurs even when you are not intending to use it.
>
>


even successful missile defense is going to leave a lot of mass flying
about in generally the direction of the planet at very high speeds. it
wouldn't take much junk raining down at C frac speeds to trash a
planet and given how many missiles are going to be used there's gonna
be a LOT of junk.
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:26:29 -0000, "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com"
<rlbell.nsuid RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>On Nov 8, 9:38 pm, Ben H <cataphractla... RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:

>I bet that the Eridani Edict only applies if you lay waste to someone
>else's planet. I would also bet that Apollo missiles damaged enough
>to be unable to engage a target will still do a number on a planet
>(that expanding ball of plasma that is inneffectual against a sidewall
>is still at 0.97c, so the tactic can be employed against the RMN by
>staying close in to the planet.
>
>The Eridani Edict seems to allow for collateral damage. In At All
>Costs, the planetary defences do not join the fun to encourage the RHN
>to not fire at them. If firing back at them would cause the RHN to
>violate the Edict, this would not have been a concern.


The Eridani Edict doesn't apply if the planet's resisting either, so
if the orbital defences are hot then I guess a case could be made that
Sphinx would have brought its fate on itself.
--
John Fairhurst
e: john RemoveThis @johnsbooks.co.u
W: http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk
q: http://www.johnsbooks.co.uk/Quiz
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:30:49 GMT, John Fairhurst
<John.DeleteThis@Johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:26:29 -0000, "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com"
><rlbell.nsuid.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:


>>The Eridani Edict seems to allow for collateral damage. In At All
>>Costs, the planetary defences do not join the fun to encourage the RHN
>>to not fire at them. If firing back at them would cause the RHN to
>>violate the Edict, this would not have been a concern.
>
>
>The Eridani Edict doesn't apply if the planet's resisting either, so
>if the orbital defences are hot then I guess a case could be made that
>Sphinx would have brought its fate on itself.

Either there is some wiggle room in "heat of battle" situations, or
there are more rules than we have been openly told of in canon.
On more than one occasion, the RMN has not fired at mobile forces
hiding behind an inhabited planet for fear of Eridani violations. As
noted above, the RMN did not use the fixed defenses against an
invading force that was in the process of slaughtering most of their
entire Navy.
As I said, either there is some wiggle room (and they realized that it
*would* be read against them in all situations) in the condition set,
or there are different conditions for mobile and fixed forces.
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

J'hn1 <jhn1@comcastnet> wrote
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:30:49 GMT, John Fairhurst
> <John.RemoveThis@Johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote:

> >The Eridani Edict doesn't apply if the planet's resisting either, so
> >if the orbital defences are hot then I guess a case could be made
that
> >Sphinx would have brought its fate on itself.
>
> Either there is some wiggle room in "heat of battle" situations, or
> there are more rules than we have been openly told of in canon.
> On more than one occasion, the RMN has not fired at mobile forces
> hiding behind an inhabited planet for fear of Eridani violations. As
> noted above, the RMN did not use the fixed defenses against an
> invading force that was in the process of slaughtering most of their
> entire Navy.

> As I said, either there is some wiggle room (and they realized that
it
> *would* be read against them in all situations) in the condition set,
> or there are different conditions for mobile and fixed forces.

Your mistake, I think, is conflating discussion of a particular example
such as the "High Orbitals" with what the Eridani Edict actually
covers.

Moreover, DW has pointed out that indiscriminate attacks against
civilians are not allowed ever, not even after a refusal to surrender.

The textev and infodumps seem to have the keywords 'planets',
'indiscriminate' and 'civilian population'.

Thus hitting a planet without aiming, however this occurs, is a
violation unless there are no civilians (as in the private commercial
planet case perhaps).

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Harrington/hh_expanding_upon_the_er
idani_edict.htm

http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/Harrington/hh_masada_and_the_edict.
htm

You can use kinetic weapons and nukes provided their use doesn't amount
to indiscriminate use against the population (and this applies to civil
war also). Thus McQueen's aka 'Admiral Cluster Bomb' methods did not
violate the Eridani Edict since they were used against military targets
and rebels out in the streets and fighting. Same for a planet that does
not surrender after space forces hold its high orbitals, anyone in arms
and resisting is a legitimate target.

[WoH Ch 35 ] About the only clear and unambiguous foreign policy
principle the League maintained was the Eridani Edict's prohibition
against the unrestricted use of what were still called "weapons of mass
destruction" against inhabited planets

EoH indeed uses "Planetary Bombardment".

--
Mike D
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

test


On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 14:07:29 +0100, J'hn1 <jhn1@comcastnet> wrote:

>On Mon, 19 Nov 2007 19:30:49 GMT, John Fairhurst
><John DeleteThis @Johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:26:29 -0000, "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com"
>><rlbell.nsuid DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>The Eridani Edict seems to allow for collateral damage. In At All
>>>Costs, the planetary defences do not join the fun to encourage the RHN
>>>to not fire at them. If firing back at them would cause the RHN to
>>>violate the Edict, this would not have been a concern.
>>
>>
>>The Eridani Edict doesn't apply if the planet's resisting either, so
>>if the orbital defences are hot then I guess a case could be made that
>>Sphinx would have brought its fate on itself.
>
>Either there is some wiggle room in "heat of battle" situations, or
>there are more rules than we have been openly told of in canon.
>On more than one occasion, the RMN has not fired at mobile forces
>hiding behind an inhabited planet for fear of Eridani violations. As
>noted above, the RMN did not use the fixed defenses against an
>invading force that was in the process of slaughtering most of their
>entire Navy.
>As I said, either there is some wiggle room (and they realized that it
>*would* be read against them in all situations) in the condition set,
>or there are different conditions for mobile and fixed forces.
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

Test, test, testing....

This is a test of the nn <n.RemoveThis@ther.net> testing net, if we had information of
the official nature it would be following, but we don't so it won't.

This concludes the testing of the nn <n.RemoveThis@ther.net> testing net.

Terry

On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:27:07 GMT, nn <n.RemoveThis@ther.net> wrote:

>test
>
>
--

Terry FitzSimons
FITZSIMONS.RemoveThis@MINTEL.NET(Small Letters Only)
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs 

On 2008-04-27, Terry FitzSimons <fitzsimons RemoveThis @mintel.net>
allegedly proclaimed to alt.books.david-weber:
>>test
>
> Test, test, testing....
>
> This is a test of the nn <n RemoveThis @ther.net> testing net, if we had information of
> the official nature it would be following, but we don't so it won't.
>
> This concludes the testing of the nn <n RemoveThis @ther.net> testing net.
>
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2008 14:27:07 GMT, nn <n RemoveThis @ther.net> wrote:

Test grade: F

Gym "*.test newsfroups exist for a reason..." Quirk

--
Capt. Gym Z. Quirk (Known to some as Taki Kogoma) quirk @ swcp.com
Just an article detector on the Information Supercollider.
 >> Stay informed about: Apollo Ship designs