Aragon's Reasoning

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message

> Tony wrote:
>
>> After Frodo is stabbed at Weathertop, Aragon concludes the the Nazgul have
>> chosen to withdraw because they believe that Frodo will succumb to the
>> spell of
>> their knife. However, is this a reasonable assumption? Wouldn't the
>> Nazgul expect the ring to be stolen from Frodo by another member of his
>> company: a member who would then leave the area as quickly as possible?
>
> "Succumb" didn't mean "die" - as Gandalf said later, he was "fading". I
> think eventually he'd have just slipped on the ring and gone off to hand it
> to the nearest Wraith.

Hi Derek,

Since Nazgul could logically deduce that Frodo would be in a weakened state,
fading as you say, the Nazgul could assume that Frodo would be vulnerable to
others, and likely to have the ring stolen from him. The new ring bearer thief
would likely quickly exit the area. Therefore it would not appear prudent for
the Nazgul to simply fall back and just wait for Frodo to become a wraith as
Aragon concluded they would.
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In message
"Tony" spoke these staves:
>
> After Frodo is stabbed at Weathertop, Aragon concludes the the
> Nazgul have chosen to withdraw because they believe that Frodo
> will succumb to the spell of their knife. However, is this a
> reasonable assumption?

While writing _The Lord of the Rings_, Tolkien wrote several versions
of a story he caled 'The Hunt for the Ring'. This details the hunt
more from the perspective of Sauron and the Ringwraiths -- my
impression is that it is meant simply as a help for himself in
writing the main story. Regardless of why he wrote it, there is a
lengthy excerpt from it in Hammond and Scull's _Reader's Companion_
where the incident at Weathertop is described from the Witch-king's
perspective.

IDHTBIFM, but as I recall it, there are a number of points that
should be considered (I might be adding points from elsewhere also,
and I hope that others will correct me where my memory fails).

a) The Ringwraiths' main 'weapon' was the terror they caused. Against
people like Aragorn that didn't fear them, they didn't have any
special powers
b) They were surprised already that it wasn't Aragorn that had the
Ring, since they perceived that he was a formidable foe
c) Frodo had resisted them far more strongly than they expected.
c1) By stabbing out against the Witch-king
c2) By calling upon Elbereth
d) The blades from the Barrow did pose a real threat to the Witch-
king personally -- he realized that his task might be personally
dangerous to him
e) Frodo calling upon Elbereth did have some kind of effect, striking
fear in the Ringwraiths and showing him to be associated with the
Elves

Finally it should be remembered that the Witch-king expected Frodo to
succumb to the Morgul-wound in a couple of days at most, and he was
confident that he could prevent anyone from going anywhere in the
meantime. That Frodo should be able to resist the wound for nearly
two weeks must have been an even greater surprise to the Nazgûl than
to Gandalf; it would not have been something that entered their
calculations.

The subject has been discussed several times here, but discussions
prior to the release of the _Reader's Companion_ (in 2005, IIRC) will
miss some essential information. There's a thread here, where most
points also are summarized:
<http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.books.tolkien/browse_frm/thr
ead/6d504cf49566bd7>
<http://preview.tinyurl.com/747pun>

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo
- /The Fellowship of the Ring/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
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"Troels Forchhammer" wrote

<snip>
>
> Finally it should be remembered that the Witch-king expected Frodo to
> succumb to the Morgul-wound in a couple of days at most, and he was
> confident that he could prevent anyone from going anywhere in the
> meantime. That Frodo should be able to resist the wound for nearly
> two weeks must have been an even greater surprise to the Nazgûl than
> to Gandalf; it would not have been something that entered their
> calculations.
>

Thank you very much for pointing me towards these pertinent quotations. It
would be reasonable to assume that the Witch-king was confident that he could
prevent anyone from escaping since the Nazgul were on horse back and Frodo's
group was not. However, it would be presumptuous for the Witch-king to assume
that all he would have to do is wait for Frodo to succumb to his knife wound,
and then have Frodo to hand him the ring. I believe that Aragon incorrectly
attributed this farfetched notion to the Witch-king.

In contrast, it would be reasonable for the Nazgul to assume that someone would
steal or take the ring from Frodo. It would also be incumbent on Aragon to
prevent Frodo from giving the ring to the Nazgul by taking it himself. In
addition, the Nazgul could not be completely confident that mounted support
would not arrive to rescue the ring and its bearer. For example, Gandalf had
been at Weathertop a few days previous, and both Elves and Rangers patrolled the
area.

To conclude, Aragon made an accurate prediction about the behavior of the
Nazgul, but his explanation for this behavior was unconvincing.
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Tony wrote:

> However, it would be presumptuous for the Witch-king to
> assume that all he would have to do is wait for Frodo to succumb to his
> knife wound,
> and then have Frodo to hand him the ring.

It's a pretty common failing of all of Sauron's minions (in fact of Evil in
general, both in Tolkien and other mythology) that they attribute to others
what they see in themselves. The Wraiths know that they couldn't do
anything else in Frodo's situation. "Presumptuous" doesn't seem right -
"short-sighted" is more like it.

> In contrast, it would be reasonable for the Nazgul to assume that someone
> would steal or take the ring from Frodo.

It wouldn't be in the _Ring's_ interest - therefore, the Ring would protect
itself as always, and Frodo would put on the Ring and simply disappear.

> It would also be incumbent on Aragon to
> prevent Frodo from giving the ring to the Nazgul by taking it himself. In

Only if he could find it.

> addition, the Nazgul could not be completely confident that mounted
> support
> would not arrive to rescue the ring and its bearer. For example, Gandalf
> had been at Weathertop a few days previous, and both Elves and Rangers
> patrolled the area.

They thought they'd driven off Gandalf, and if they could drive him off, who
else could be a threat? fwiw, I've seen no indication that the Rangers
patrolled in either groups or on horseback, and as the only person to
encounter the group was Glorfindel, alone, I guess they were right to believe
no mounted party would be coming out of Rivendell. (I've never been quite
sure whether Glorfindel was the only person searching for them, or whether
other individuals were searching other routes, but in any case Rivendell
could not afford to send out groups).
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Derek Broughton wrote:

(snip)

> They thought they'd driven off Gandalf, and if they could drive him off, who
> else could be a threat? fwiw, I've seen no indication that the Rangers
> patrolled in either groups or on horseback, and as the only person to
> encounter the group was Glorfindel, alone, I guess they were right to believe
> no mounted party would be coming out of Rivendell. (I've never been quite
> sure whether Glorfindel was the only person searching for them, or whether
> other individuals were searching other routes, but in any case Rivendell
> could not afford to send out groups).
>

Glorfindel himself says there were other searchers:

There are few even in Rivendell that can ride openly against the
Nine; but such as there were, Elrond sent out north, west, and
south. It was thought that you might turn far aside to avoid
pursuit, and become lost in the Wilderness.

It was my lot to take the Road, and I came to the Bridge of
Mitheithel, and left a token there, nigh on seven days ago.
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"Derek Broughton" wrote

<snip>

>
> They thought they'd driven off Gandalf, and if they could drive him off, who
> else could be a threat? fwiw, I've seen no indication that the Rangers
> patrolled in either groups or on horseback, and as the only person to
> encounter the group was Glorfindel, alone, I guess they were right to believe
> no mounted party would be coming out of Rivendell.

Hi Derek,

You mean the Rangers patrolled on foot most of the time? That seems like hard
work. They were mounted when they traveled to Rohan to meet Aragon, so they
were no strangers to horses. On the other hand, Aragon's pseudonym was
"Strider." This suggests he walked quite a bit, and he certainly was in great
shape - capable of running huge distances.
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Tony wrote:

> "Derek Broughton" wrote
>
> <snip>
>
>> They thought they'd driven off Gandalf, and if they could drive him off,
>> who
>> else could be a threat? fwiw, I've seen no indication that the Rangers
>> patrolled in either groups or on horseback, and as the only person to
>> encounter the group was Glorfindel, alone, I guess they were right to
>> believe no mounted party would be coming out of Rivendell.
>
> You mean the Rangers patrolled on foot most of the time?

That seems right to me.

> That seems like hard work.

Not particularly. Horses are not really hardier than Men, and Men can go
places horses can't. You'd be pretty annoyed when you tracked a party of
Orcs to a cliff face, and had to either leave your horse (for the next group
of orcs to eat) or ride 10 miles out of your way to find a way down.

> They were mounted when they traveled to Rohan to meet Aragon, so
> they
> were no strangers to horses. On the other hand, Aragon's pseudonym was
> "Strider."

That is actually the best argument against the idea that the rangers usually travelled on foot - the fact that Aragorn was particularly known for walking.

> This suggests he walked quite a bit, and he certainly was in
> great shape - capable of running huge distances.

A fit man can outrun a horse over distance. Me, I could outrun a horse for about 5 feet, if he gave me a two second head start...
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Wed, 31 Dec 2008 17:25:01 -0500 from Tony :
> You mean the Rangers patrolled on foot most of the time? That seems
> like hard work.

There's a reason their chief was nicknamed Strider and not Galloper.

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"Derek Broughton" wrote in message

<snip>
>
> It wouldn't be in the _Ring's_ interest - therefore, the Ring would protect
> itself as always, and Frodo would put on the Ring and simply disappear.
>

That's a very good point. However, one unintended consequence of stabbing Frodo
was that it made him weak and vulnerable to attack by his companions. In fact,
it probably would have been prudent for Aragon to take the ring from Frodo
immediately after the knife attack as a basic precaution. Aragon could have
returned it to him later in Rivendale if recommended by the Council. However,
perhaps you're saying that although Frodo was weak and barely conscious, the
Ring itself could direct Frodo's actions in an effort to protect itself.
Perhaps the Ring could revive Frodo sufficiently so that he could escape for
Aragon.

In addition, we might anticipate that Sam, Pippin and Merry would have objected
to Aragon forcibly taking the Ring, but it was conceivable that Frodo would have
relinquished in voluntarily if asked by Aragon. There would be a logic to this
transfer of the Ring, i.e., the Nazgul would not be interested in attacking
Hobbits if Aragon with the Ring left the group and made a mad dash for Rivendale
on his own.
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I've found this thread very interesting and will continue to read it, but
could we at least spell his name correctly: Aragorn.

I sight read and such a mis-spelling halts the scan every time.

Thanks
"Tony" wrote in message

> Hello All,
>
> After Frodo is stabbed at Weathertop, Aragon concludes the the Nazgul have
> chosen to withdraw because they believe that Frodo will succumb to the
> spell of their knife. However, is this a reasonable assumption? Wouldn't
> the Nazgul expect the ring to be stolen from Frodo by another member of
> his company: a member who would then leave the area as quickly as
> possible?
>
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wrote:
> X-No-Archive: Yes. On Jan 1, Tony wrote:
>
>> However, one unintended consequence of stabbing Frodo
>> was that it made him weak and vulnerable to attack by his companions. In fact,
>> it probably would have been prudent for Aragon to take the ring from Frodo
>> immediately after the knife attack as a basic precaution.
>
> I think Aragorn understood that he should *not* take the ring, for the
> reasons expressed at the Council, that it would be too great a
> temptation for any of the wise to consider bearing it. I agree with
> you, however, that it would be prudent for Frodo to no longer carry
> the ring. We have three other unharmed Hobbits--Sam could have taken
> it. I'm sure Frodo would object, but, in light of the dangers, I
> think they could manage it, especially when Frodo was substantially
> weakened and faded.
>
> Zorag

But of course, the problem is that the Nazgûl would have _expected_
Aragorn to take the ring, so they wouldn't have trusted the gradual
working of the knife-wound to get the ring for them.
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