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Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: "The Old Forest"

 
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user1325

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Since: Feb 15, 2004
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:28 am
Post subject: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: "The Old Forest"
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<http://parasha.maoltuile.org/> will give you information about previous
and future chapter discussions, as well as how to volunteer.

Summary

Frodo is woken up before dawn by an energetic Merry. As soon as their
preparations are done (and breakfast eaten), Merry leads the party
through the countryside, along the Hedge, and into the Old Forest. Fatty
takes his leave of them, and the Hobbits leave the Shire. The silent
hostility of the forest immediately makes an impression on the party.
A friendly shout from Pippin and a cheerful song by Frodo only seem
to increase this discomfort.

The hobbits lunch on a naked hill above the forest roof, and are given a
lesson in the local geography by Merry. As they leave the hill, they
find that the forest inevitably nudges them in the direction they do not
want to go - southeast, towards the root of the forest's "queerness". At
the bank of the river Withywindle they find a path which they follow
until a sudden sleepiness overpowers them. Sam is the only one who
doesn't find peace against the trunk of a willow, but remains alert
enough to save Frodo from drowning when he falls into the river. The
two then discover that Pippin and Merry are being swallowed by a
willow. Attempts to release them by lighting a fire only leads to the
tree squashing them harder.

Frodo, despairing, runs along the path, crying for help. To his
surprise, he is answered. The person he meets is man-like, yet not quite
a Man, and incessantly singing. He calls himself Tom Bombadil, and
easily makes the willow release the captive hobbits. He then promises
the travellers lodgings at his house and gives them directions on how to
find it. As they are again about to collapse from exhaustion, they reach
a neat garden, and a house emanating song and golden light.

***

Comments & Questions

Feel free to drag writings from this chapter, other Tolkien works, or
your own wild speculations into this discussion.


This is a chapter that leads into the unknown. The hobbits leave the
Shire, locking the gate behind them, and venture into unfamiliar
territory. This is symbolised by the dense mist that envelops them as
they set out, and returns to do so in the evening. However, the mist
doesn't reach Tom Bombadil's, which signals a small respite from the big
wide world. His garden is neat and ordered in an English manner, which
must be very comforting to the hobbits. But why does he have such a
pretty garden? Doesn't he like the forest?

This chapter is called, and takes place in, the Old Forest. The forest
has already been mentioned several times in the previous chapter, and
now both readers and hobbits will find out if the rumours about it are
true. Are they?

The forest Hedge is covered in cobwebs. Is this a sign from the author
saying "Danger. Keep Out"? Do you think any of the hobbits remembered
the spiders of Mirkwood at this stage, or had other premonitions?

They enter the forest through a tunnel and gate, made out of brick and
iron. Why would the Brandybucks create such an elaborate entrance into a
place that seemed to be so unwelcoming? Were they just adventurous, or
had they been thinking ahead?

We are told about the Forest encroaching on the Hedge, threatening to
swallow it. Would the trees actually have entered the Shire if the
Hobbits hadn't fought it so fiercely? Was this a "necessary war"?

Was this conflict the only reason the Forest resented the
hobbits, or did the trees have a general reason for disliking two-
footers?

How do the trees communicate? They seem to be pretty quick, both in
relaying information and in changing their formations.

Could the hobbits possibly have gone in any other direction than the one
chosen for them by the Forest?

Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
path just when they needed him the most?

As the chapter begins, Frodo is still shaken by his dream, whereas Merry
is friskily prepared for the journey ahead. Further indications of
Frodo's spiritual personality versus Merry's being a man of action?

"I'll sing his roots off. I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch
away."

Song is very important in this chapter. The hobbits are lulled to sleep,
but also saved by it. What does this reflect, if anything - the magical
power song has in Middle Earth? The fact that this power can be both
used and misused?

There is also an interesting contrast in that the tree makes the hobbits
sleep, whereas Tom says the tree should not be waking.

"In their shed they found the ponies; sturdy little beasts of the
kind loved by hobbits, not speedy, but good for a long day's work."

We did it for the dogs, and I believe the ponies deserve no worse. What
kind of modern-day pony would this kind resemble? The extremely small
toy horses, or a more rugged Northern type, such as a Shetland pony?
(guess where my money lies)

"In the midst of it there wound lazily a dark river of brown water,
bordered with ancient willows, arched over with willows, blocked with
fallen willows, and flecked with thousands of faded willow-leaves."

An example of Tolkien's willowy phrases of nature description. In this
case, it's also important for what follows.

We first meet the famous Tom Bombadil. As the author states, what he's
singing is nonsense, and clearly, his rhymes are not meant to be
poetical. However, his songs very much remind me of certain nonsense
lines in British folk songs (for instance "to me ri-fol-lair-ry, fol-
the-diddle-ay" or "must-a-whack-a-row-di-dow-now, right-a-fol-di-
daddy"). If you just listen to Tom Bombadil's singing without trying to
make sense of it, it's actually quite euphonious. Like "cellar door".

I'll leave the biggest question, "Who is Tom Bombadil", to the next
chapter discussion. };Cool

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

Ents for E-books

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redammmove

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Posts: 115



(Msg. 2) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 3:23 pm
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: "The Old Forest" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Tamfiiris Entwife wrote:

 > The forest Hedge is covered in cobwebs. Is this a sign from the author
 > saying "Danger. Keep Out"?

No, this is just a natural phenomon. At that time of year spiders are
abundant, and the dew and fog makes their webs very visible in the morning.

I think Tolkien mention it to stress the slight sinister feeling: early
morning, fog, travelling into the unknown.

 > Do you think any of the hobbits remembered
 > the spiders of Mirkwood at this stage, or had other premonitions?

Nope.

 > They enter the forest through a tunnel and gate, made out of brick and
 > iron. Why would the Brandybucks create such an elaborate entrance
 > into a place that seemed to be so unwelcoming?

It would be useful, if the forest once again tried to attack the hedge. how
else would they get near the trees?

 > Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
 > path just when they needed him the most?

Indeed. But as we know (some of us, at least) a million to one chances turn
out nine times out of ten. Which is good for Frodo, since this is neither
the first nor the last time he is helped by a million to one chance.

--
Kristian Damm Jensen damm (at) ofir (dot) dk
"He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some
that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to
deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all
ends." -- Tolkien in The Fellowship of the Ring

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menelvagor

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Since: Feb 09, 2004
Posts: 85



(Msg. 3) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 7:50 pm
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Tamfiiris Entwife wrote in message ...

 > Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
 > path just when they needed him the most?

It's that Providence business again.

 > "I'll sing his roots off. I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch
 > away."
 >
 > Song is very important in this chapter. The hobbits are lulled to sleep,
 > but also saved by it. What does this reflect, if anything - the magical
 > power song has in Middle Earth? The fact that this power can be both
 > used and misused?

Song as a creative power is bound with the fabric of Ea, why in the
Ainulindale it brought into being. I think this idea may owe
soemthing to Barfield's "ancient unities" and conveys the notion that
originally there was no distinction made among word, song, and effect,
so that to say a thing could be magical in itself. This could be pure
fancy, but I think it's an interesting idea anyway. (And Tolkien
wasn't above fancy.)

The notion may also owe something to Finnish mythology. If you want a
sampo (whatever the blazes that is), you sing for it.

Compare also the contest between Sauron and Fingon, consisting
entirely of song. "He sang a song of wizardry," etc.
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user177

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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:21 am
Post subject: Re: Chapter of the Week - LotR Bk1 Ch6: "The Old Forest" [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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 > The forest Hedge is covered in cobwebs. Is this a sign from the author
 > saying "Danger. Keep Out"? Do you think any of the hobbits remembered
 > the spiders of Mirkwood at this stage, or had other premonitions?

I do not think that it was Tolkien's way of saying "Danger". IMHO, he was
rather describing this foggy morning in a very realistic manner : When the
air is so saturated with water that little drops form on the cobwebs. I
don't think the hobbits remembered Bilbo's tale at this time. There is no
indication that these webs were larger than usual, and the poor hobbits
probaly had other things in mind than old Bilbo's stories.

 >
 > They enter the forest through a tunnel and gate, made out of brick and
 > iron. Why would the Brandybucks create such an elaborate entrance into a
 > place that seemed to be so unwelcoming? Were they just adventurous, or
 > had they been thinking ahead?

Stranger : Merry seems to be the only one to know anything about this
passage...

 > Could the hobbits possibly have gone in any other direction than the one
 > chosen for them by the Forest?

I am not sure that the Forest really forced the hobbits to go where it
intended.
In fact, we don't really know whether the trees really moved and spoke. As
you wrote, so are the old stories going, but are they true. Some hints are
given that the trees really have "powers" : there is the story in which the
trees attacked the hedge, and of course, old man willow. But I would rather
think that the forest didn't chose the hobbits way. They thought so, because
they were so freightened by the old stories, that they believed the trees
were up to no good, but save the old man willow, there isn't any direct
action from the forest on the hobbits. To me it gives the impression that
they were so sure the tress had bad intentions towards them, that persuaded
themselves that the forest was playing them trick and they panicked and got
lost.
Now there is still a question : Was the fact that the hobbit panicked a
concious act from the forest (i.e. did the forest make the hobbit panick),
or did they panick only because of the stories they heard about it, and the
trees didn't care at all?

 >
 > Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
 > path just when they needed him the most?

First time, but not the last one Smile But hey! isn't that part of Tom
Bombadil mystery?
 >

 > (guess where my money lies)
 >
In a Swiss bank I hope!


Elwë
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holliday

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Since: Feb 22, 2004
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 1:30 am
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Tamfiiris Entwife wrote:
 >
 > ... However, the mist
 > doesn't reach Tom Bombadil's, which signals a small respite from the big
 > wide world. His garden is neat and ordered in an English manner, which
 > must be very comforting to the hobbits. But why does he have such a
 > pretty garden? Doesn't he like the forest?

But Bombadil's home life is rather more anarchic than most English
houses. This aspect of Tom is emphasized more in Tolkien's two
poems about him. So I don't see any conflict. Tom is at home
in his garden, in the forest, out boating, in Farmer Maggot's
kitchen, or anywhere else his whim takes him.

Also, the garden might reflect Goldberry more than Tom.

 > Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
 > path just when they needed him the most?

Put this together with his appearance at the barrow, which I
find even less likely. I have a criticism about that, but I'll
save it for that chapter Smile Tom's appearance doesn't quite
work as well as other examples of providence in LOTR because
Tom seems to operate more by chance than by providence.

 > Song is very important in this chapter. The hobbits are lulled to sleep,
 > but also saved by it. What does this reflect, if anything - the magical
 > power song has in Middle Earth?

Sure. This is something I like about Tom. He's always singing,
even when he's talking. It's an image of song bubbling up
out of Nature. And Tom's nonsense is a refreshing contrast
to Tolkien's High Elvish poetry.

--
Glenn Holliday holliday RemoveThis @acm.org
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heldenib

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Posts: 221



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 2:44 am
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Tamfiiris Entwife wrote in message ...

 > Summary
(snip)
 > A friendly shout from Pippin and a cheerful song by Frodo only seem
 > to increase this discomfort.

Here we differ somewhat on the emotional background. I would call
Pippin's shout fearful, at this point and Frodo very much
try-to-sound-cheerful: "but his voice sank to a murmur".
 >
 > Feel free to drag writings from this chapter, other Tolkien works, or
 > your own wild speculations into this discussion.
 >
Wild speculations, LOL! I would like to add how I am moved by Sam's
brave loyal perseverence in wanting to free Merry and Pippin from Old
Man Willow: "I'll have it down, if I have to gnaw it".

 >(snip) doesn't reach Tom Bombadil's, which signals a small respite
from the big
 > wide world. His garden is neat and ordered in an English manner, which
 > must be very comforting to the hobbits. But why does he have such a
 > pretty garden? Doesn't he like the forest?

Several questions you ask, are eleborated upon in the next chapter.
This is one of them. I will probably leave it for the moment, as I
don't think at this point we're supposed to know.
 >
 > This chapter is called, and takes place in, the Old Forest. The forest
 > has already been mentioned several times in the previous chapter, and
 > now both readers and hobbits will find out if the rumours about it are
 > true. Are they?
 >
As is usually the case with rumours: some are and some aren't. If
Fatty is more frightened of the Old Forest than of Black Riders, the
rumours he heard were probably over-the-top.

 > We are told about the Forest encroaching on the Hedge, threatening to
 > swallow it. Would the trees actually have entered the Shire if the
 > Hobbits hadn't fought it so fiercely? Was this a "necessary war"?

My feeling is: defence was necessary, but this war seems to me to have
been unnecessarily harsh.

 > Was this conflict the only reason the Forest resented the
 > hobbits, or did the trees have a general reason for disliking two-
 > footers?

This is told in the next chapter.
 >
 > Could the hobbits possibly have gone in any other direction than the one
 > chosen for them by the Forest?

No. (Next chapter)
 >
 > Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
 > path just when they needed him the most?
 >
Elaborated upon in the next chapter.

 > As the chapter begins, Frodo is still shaken by his dream, whereas Merry
 > is friskily prepared for the journey ahead. Further indications of
 > Frodo's spiritual personality versus Merry's being a man of action?
 >
I would say Frodo's spiritual personality/melancholy character,
definitely very different from the cheerful hobbit of action Merry.

 > "I'll sing his roots off. I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch
 > away."
 >
 > Song is very important in this chapter. The hobbits are lulled to sleep,
 > but also saved by it. What does this reflect, if anything - the magical
 > power song has in Middle Earth?

It reflects the power song has in Middle Earth, on this earth and in
the Silmarillion.

 > The fact that this power can be both used and misused?
 >
Definitely.

 > We did it for the dogs, and I believe the ponies deserve no worse. What
 > kind of modern-day pony would this kind resemble? The extremely small
 > toy horses, or a more rugged Northern type, such as a Shetland pony?
 > (guess where my money lies)

Shetland pony, same as mine?
 >
 > An example of Tolkien's willowy phrases of nature description. In this
 > case, it's also important for what follows.

Why is the Bad Tree a willow, my favorite of trees?
 >
 > If you just listen to Tom Bombadil's singing without trying to
 > make sense of it, it's actually quite euphonious. Like "cellar door".

"Cellar door"?

 > I'll leave the biggest question, "Who is Tom Bombadil", to the next
 > chapter discussion. };Cool

Why thank you! };Cool
Brava Tamf! Excellent summary and points!

Henriette
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user1315

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Posts: 143



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 3:22 am
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"Tamfiiris Entwife" skrev i en
meddelelse

 > But why does he have such a pretty garden? Doesn't he like the forest?

Probably he likes them both. I also have a garden; it is rather weedy,
though. Potted plants I do not have, on window-sills or tables.

 > This chapter is called, and takes place in, the Old Forest. The forest
 > has already been mentioned several times in the previous chapter, and
 > now both readers and hobbits will find out if the rumours about it are
 > true. Are they?

Merry's rumours, somewhat more. Probably not Fatty's tales, referred to
us by Merry.

 > We are told about the Forest encroaching on the Hedge, threatening to
 > swallow it. Would the trees actually have entered the Shire if the
 > Hobbits hadn't fought it so fiercely? Was this a "necessary war"?

By Merry's tale it likely was - though probably the trees were trying to
reclaim the lands that once were their possession.

 > Was this conflict the only reason the Forest resented the
 > hobbits, or did the trees have a general reason for disliking two-
 > footers?

Judging now by what we read in the following chapter, where Tom he speaks
in more detail about the ancient forest, quite certainly the trees dislike
all that gnaw and hack and burn, walkers and usurpers.

 > Could the hobbits possibly have gone in any other direction than the one
 > chosen for them by the Forest?

Perhaps they could, if they had not brought ponies with them, and if they
had been as crafty in the wood as Aragorn the Strider.

 > Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
 > path just when they needed him the most?

Providence it may have been - again and not the last time.

 > We first meet the famous Tom Bombadil. As the author states, what he's
 > singing is nonsense, and clearly, his rhymes are not meant to be
 > poetical. However, his songs very much remind me of certain nonsense
 > lines in British folk songs (for instance "to me ri-fol-lair-ry, fol-
 > the-diddle-ay" or "must-a-whack-a-row-di-dow-now, right-a-fol-di-
 > daddy"). If you just listen to Tom Bombadil's singing without trying to
 > make sense of it, it's actually quite euphonious. Like "cellar door".

There is one thing I didn't notice during my first readings: it is that
even when he talks, Tom he talks in rhythm. Though admitted may it be, it's
sometimes hard to follow.

 > Ents for E-books

Maybe Ents are for bidets?

Ramn the Black of Feather.
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mightymartianc

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 87



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:00 am
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On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:28:01 -0000,
Tamfiiris Entwife wrote:
 ><http://parasha.maoltuile.org/> will give you information about previous
 > and future chapter discussions, as well as how to volunteer.

<snip>

 > This chapter is called, and takes place in, the Old Forest. The forest
 > has already been mentioned several times in the previous chapter, and
 > now both readers and hobbits will find out if the rumours about it are
 > true. Are they?

Obviously some of them are, as a hedge was planted and there was still a
large clearing where the Bucklanders had burned the trees.

 >
 > The forest Hedge is covered in cobwebs. Is this a sign from the author
 > saying "Danger. Keep Out"? Do you think any of the hobbits remembered
 > the spiders of Mirkwood at this stage, or had other premonitions?

I think it's more a sign that the woods are rarely entered, and I imagine
that represents danger.

 >
 > They enter the forest through a tunnel and gate, made out of brick and
 > iron. Why would the Brandybucks create such an elaborate entrance into a
 > place that seemed to be so unwelcoming? Were they just adventurous, or
 > had they been thinking ahead?

I'm sure thinking ahead was part of it. Perhaps they were also thumbing
their noses at the trees.

 >
 > We are told about the Forest encroaching on the Hedge, threatening to
 > swallow it. Would the trees actually have entered the Shire if the
 > Hobbits hadn't fought it so fiercely? Was this a "necessary war"?

This seems to have been the case. The Forest was clearly an unwholesome
place, at least to folks that walked on two legs.

 >
 > Was this conflict the only reason the Forest resented the
 > hobbits, or did the trees have a general reason for disliking two-
 > footers?

Considering that it was a remnant of a wood that had stretched to Dunharrow
(and farther as I recall), and that it seems axes may have been its demise,
I imagine it's a general dislike of two-footers.

 >
 > How do the trees communicate? They seem to be pretty quick, both in
 > relaying information and in changing their formations.

I think we're dealing with something akin to Huorns here. Tolkien never
really explains what is in the Old Forest, and the biggest hint is Bombadil
talking about Old Man Willow being a big player. I'd love to know precisely
what Old Man Willow was. Was he an Ent gone bad?

 >
 > Could the hobbits possibly have gone in any other direction than the one
 > chosen for them by the Forest?

Tom Bombadil indicates that all paths lead to the vale of the Withywindle.

 >
 > Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
 > path just when they needed him the most?

I doubt there was any coincidence.

 >
 > As the chapter begins, Frodo is still shaken by his dream, whereas Merry
 > is friskily prepared for the journey ahead. Further indications of
 > Frodo's spiritual personality versus Merry's being a man of action?

There's no doubt that Frodo is the most introspective and spiritual of all
the Hobbits.

 >
 > "I'll sing his roots off. I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch
 > away."
 >
 > Song is very important in this chapter. The hobbits are lulled to sleep,
 > but also saved by it. What does this reflect, if anything - the magical
 > power song has in Middle Earth? The fact that this power can be both
 > used and misused?

As I recall, song is how Luthien toppled the original Minas Tirith and put
Morgoth to sleep. It seems that song does have potency.

 >
 > There is also an interesting contrast in that the tree makes the hobbits
 > sleep, whereas Tom says the tree should not be waking.

As I questioned above, I'd just love to know what Old Man Willow was.

 >
 > "In their shed they found the ponies; sturdy little beasts of the
 > kind loved by hobbits, not speedy, but good for a long day's work."
 >
 > We did it for the dogs, and I believe the ponies deserve no worse. What
 > kind of modern-day pony would this kind resemble? The extremely small
 > toy horses, or a more rugged Northern type, such as a Shetland pony?
 > (guess where my money lies)

I'm guessing a rugged, working pony.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
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mightymartianc

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Posts: 87



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:00 am
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On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:28:01 -0000,
Tamfiiris Entwife wrote:
 ><http://parasha.maoltuile.org/> will give you information about previous
 > and future chapter discussions, as well as how to volunteer.

<snip>

 > This chapter is called, and takes place in, the Old Forest. The forest
 > has already been mentioned several times in the previous chapter, and
 > now both readers and hobbits will find out if the rumours about it are
 > true. Are they?

Obviously some of them are, as a hedge was planted and there was still a
large clearing where the Bucklanders had burned the trees.

 >
 > The forest Hedge is covered in cobwebs. Is this a sign from the author
 > saying "Danger. Keep Out"? Do you think any of the hobbits remembered
 > the spiders of Mirkwood at this stage, or had other premonitions?

I think it's more a sign that the woods are rarely entered, and I imagine
that represents danger.

 >
 > They enter the forest through a tunnel and gate, made out of brick and
 > iron. Why would the Brandybucks create such an elaborate entrance into a
 > place that seemed to be so unwelcoming? Were they just adventurous, or
 > had they been thinking ahead?

I'm sure thinking ahead was part of it. Perhaps they were also thumbing
their noses at the trees.

 >
 > We are told about the Forest encroaching on the Hedge, threatening to
 > swallow it. Would the trees actually have entered the Shire if the
 > Hobbits hadn't fought it so fiercely? Was this a "necessary war"?

This seems to have been the case. The Forest was clearly an unwholesome
place, at least to folks that walked on two legs.

 >
 > Was this conflict the only reason the Forest resented the
 > hobbits, or did the trees have a general reason for disliking two-
 > footers?

Considering that it was a remnant of a wood that had stretched to Dunharrow
(and farther as I recall), and that it seems axes may have been its demise,
I imagine it's a general dislike of two-footers.

 >
 > How do the trees communicate? They seem to be pretty quick, both in
 > relaying information and in changing their formations.

I think we're dealing with something akin to Huorns here. Tolkien never
really explains what is in the Old Forest, and the biggest hint is Bombadil
talking about Old Man Willow being a big player. I'd love to know precisely
what Old Man Willow was. Was he an Ent gone bad?

 >
 > Could the hobbits possibly have gone in any other direction than the one
 > chosen for them by the Forest?

Tom Bombadil indicates that all paths lead to the vale of the Withywindle.

 >
 > Wasn't it a marvellous coincidence that Tom came wandering down that
 > path just when they needed him the most?

I doubt there was any coincidence.

 >
 > As the chapter begins, Frodo is still shaken by his dream, whereas Merry
 > is friskily prepared for the journey ahead. Further indications of
 > Frodo's spiritual personality versus Merry's being a man of action?

There's no doubt that Frodo is the most introspective and spiritual of all
the Hobbits.

 >
 > "I'll sing his roots off. I'll sing a wind up and blow leaf and branch
 > away."
 >
 > Song is very important in this chapter. The hobbits are lulled to sleep,
 > but also saved by it. What does this reflect, if anything - the magical
 > power song has in Middle Earth? The fact that this power can be both
 > used and misused?

As I recall, song is how Luthien toppled the original Minas Tirith and put
Morgoth to sleep. It seems that song does have potency.

 >
 > There is also an interesting contrast in that the tree makes the hobbits
 > sleep, whereas Tom says the tree should not be waking.

As I questioned above, I'd just love to know what Old Man Willow was.

 >
 > "In their shed they found the ponies; sturdy little beasts of the
 > kind loved by hobbits, not speedy, but good for a long day's work."
 >
 > We did it for the dogs, and I believe the ponies deserve no worse. What
 > kind of modern-day pony would this kind resemble? The extremely small
 > toy horses, or a more rugged Northern type, such as a Shetland pony?
 > (guess where my money lies)

I'm guessing a rugged, working pony.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
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heldenib

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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 5:00 am
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AC wrote in message ...
 > On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:28:01 -0000,


  > > The forest Hedge is covered in cobwebs. Is this a sign from the author
  > > saying "Danger. Keep Out"? Do you think any of the hobbits remembered
  > > the spiders of Mirkwood at this stage, or had other premonitions?
 >
 > I think it's more a sign that the woods are rarely entered, and I imagine
 > that represents danger.

You would make a good detective. I never thought of that!
 >
  > > We are told about the Forest encroaching on the Hedge, threatening to
  > > swallow it. Would the trees actually have entered the Shire if the
  > > Hobbits hadn't fought it so fiercely? Was this a "necessary war"?
 >
 > This seems to have been the case. The Forest was clearly an unwholesome
 > place, at least to folks that walked on two legs.

Couldn't they have built a wall like the Israelian, and have refrained
from all the hacking and destroying?
 >
 > As I questioned above, I'd just love to know what Old Man Willow was.

As you probably recall, Tom spends quite some time talking about him
in chapter 7.

Henriette
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user1307

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(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 6:34 am
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Menelvagor.RemoveThis@mailandnews.com (Count Menelvagor) wrote in


 > The notion may also owe something to Finnish mythology. If
 > you want a sampo (whatever the blazes that is), you sing for
 > it.
 >
 >

It's magic - a magical mill that grinds out what you tell it to.
Gold, salt (a precious commodity way back before when), etc.

--
mc
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barbb

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(Msg. 12) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 8:36 pm
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On Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:28:01 -0000, Tamfiiris Entwife
wrote:

 >Feel free to drag writings from this chapter, other Tolkien works, or
 >your own wild speculations into this discussion.

This isn't a comment or a wild speculation, but ever since reading
that they went through a spinney behind the house as they made their
way across the fields, I've wondered: what is a spinney?

 >This is a chapter that leads into the unknown. The hobbits leave the
 >Shire, locking the gate behind them, and venture into unfamiliar
 >territory. This is symbolised by the dense mist that envelops them as
 >they set out, and returns to do so in the evening. However, the mist
 >doesn't reach Tom Bombadil's, which signals a small respite from the big
 >wide world. His garden is neat and ordered in an English manner, which
 >must be very comforting to the hobbits. But why does he have such a
 >pretty garden? Doesn't he like the forest?

He doesn't fear the forest, clearly, as he knows the song for Old Man
Willow, and his very circumscribed territory does include the forest,
or at least that part along the Withywindle where he meets the hobbits
(and long ago found Goldberry) and exits somewhere into the Shire
either along the Withywindle or through the forest itself (and the
hedge) so he can occasionally meet Farmer Maggott.

I think he must go in the forest, too, because of Merry's comment here
that something makes paths there. The trees wouldn't do that, and the
Old Forest must be a biological desert in terms of animals that might
do so (as is true of many old forests). Also, Bombadil occasionally
tends toward autumn leaves for headgear, as we'll see in the next
chapter. As for the garden, well, vegetables are part of a balanced
diet (g) -- what sort of things could he get from the forest besides
nuts, twigs to brew tea with, some mosses and mushrooms, wild honey
and, of course, autumn leaves?

 >This chapter is called, and takes place in, the Old Forest. The forest
 >has already been mentioned several times in the previous chapter, and
 >now both readers and hobbits will find out if the rumours about it are
 >true. Are they?

Merry was probably correct in saying generally that it was very much
more alive, more aware of what is going on. But as for the rest of it
-- their driving the hobbits toward the Withywindle -- well, perhaps,
though I always wondered about those deep folds in the ground that
helped force the hobbits down to the Withywindle -- how could the
trees achieve that without Ents?

 >They enter the forest through a tunnel and gate, made out of brick and
 >iron. Why would the Brandybucks create such an elaborate entrance into a
 >place that seemed to be so unwelcoming? Were they just adventurous, or
 >had they been thinking ahead?

They have the tunnel there for when the fit takes them to go in
(Brandybucks must be very moody), and what better response to a
perceived threat from the living, green world than cold brick and hard
iron. A surprisingly mordorish touch there from the hobbits.

 >Was this conflict the only reason the Forest resented the
 >hobbits, or did the trees have a general reason for disliking two-
 >footers?

Doesn't Treebeard say later that he can believe there is a remnant of
the Darkness (of Morgoth) in the Old Forest? Clinging to that
darkness, with the tendency unified and strengthened to palpable
levels under the will of Old Man Willow, whatever he was, would be a
general reason.

 >How do the trees communicate? They seem to be pretty quick, both in
 >relaying information and in changing their formations.

It's been shown that some trees and vines communicate, hasn't it?
Something to do with insect infestations. (Time out to google: Aha!
See "Do Trees Communicate For Mutual Defense?" at
<a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/762.html" target="_blank">http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF7/762.html</a> )

I know of four hobbits who would answer that question with a heartfelt
"yes!" As for the Old Forest, the best bet would be communications
via chemicals, through the leaves and root systems. Or maybe they're
just all pawns, robotically following Old Man Willow's intense will.

Barb

_____
Keep behind me. There's no sense in getting killed by a plant.
-- Tom Goodwin
_____
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user1325

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(Msg. 13) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:12 pm
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help! Elwë Singollo has fallen in the water!

 > I am not sure that the Forest really forced the hobbits to go where it
 > intended.

a very good point. how much of the atmosphere in the forest is real, and
how much imagined? we keep being told how the hobbits feel steadily
worse in it, but the trees are never proven to do something - until they
meet the willow, that is. on the other hand, they *do* walk in a
direction they clearly wish to avoid, and they do meet the willow.

 > In fact, we don't really know whether the trees really moved and spoke.

we don't, but Merry seems to think they do. ("Well, well!" he said.
"These trees do shift. There is the Bonfire Glade in front of us (or I
hope so), but the path to it seems to have moved away!"). now, he could
just remember the location of the path wrongly, but there's no reason
why he should have lost his head this early on.

 > As
 > you wrote, so are the old stories going, but are they true. Some hints are
 > given that the trees really have "powers" : there is the story in which the
 > trees attacked the hedge, and of course, old man willow. But I would rather
 > think that the forest didn't chose the hobbits way. They thought so, because
 > they were so freightened by the old stories, that they believed the trees
 > were up to no good, but save the old man willow, there isn't any direct
 > action from the forest on the hobbits. To me it gives the impression that
 > they were so sure the tress had bad intentions towards them, that persuaded
 > themselves that the forest was playing them trick and they panicked and got
 > lost.

well, both human and hobbit minds work in mysterious ways, and
imagination is always the most likely reason for supernatural events.
Pippin is the first to give in, impressionable youngster that he is.
Frodo, worried about his dangerous quest, is next. but wouldn't Sam and
Merry be more levelheaded than letting themselves believe that the
forest was out to get them if it wasn't?

 > Now there is still a question : Was the fact that the hobbit panicked a
 > concious act from the forest (i.e. did the forest make the hobbit panick),
 > or did they panick only because of the stories they heard about it, and the
 > trees didn't care at all?

i'm still thinking that the trees cared quite a bit, but as we've seen,
it's very difficult to prove what they did or did not do.

  > > (guess where my money lies)
 > In a Swiss bank I hope!

in a swiss CHOKLIT factory, more likely...

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

That which hath made them drunk hath made me bold;
What hath quench'd them hath given me fire.
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:12 pm
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help! Raven has fallen in the water!

 > Probably he likes them both. I also have a garden; it is rather weedy,
 > though. Potted plants I do not have, on window-sills or tables.

and do you have a wild forest just outside your garden fence?

  > > Hobbits hadn't fought it so fiercely? Was this a "necessary war"?

 > By Merry's tale it likely was - though probably the trees were trying to
 > reclaim the lands that once were their possession.

the trees remind me a little of American Indians, actually - all the
land was theirs once, and now they're enclosed in this pitiful, fenced
reservation.

  > > Could the hobbits possibly have gone in any other direction

 > Perhaps they could, if they had not brought ponies with them, and if they
 > had been as crafty in the wood as Aragorn the Strider.

they should have brought a dwarf!

  > > Ents for E-books
 > Maybe Ents are for bidets?

that would be the end of the ents...

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

That which hath made them drunk hath made me bold;
What hath quench'd them hath given me fire.
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:12 pm
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help! AC has fallen in the water!


[forest rumours true]

 > Obviously some of them are, as a hedge was planted and there was still a
 > large clearing where the Bucklanders had burned the trees.

if the tree-war "long ago" was indeed long ago, a normal forest would
have reclaimed the glade by now. maybe the trees consciously stay away
from a place where they suffered so many losees. maybe the hobbits put
poison in the ground.

or perhaps it's Tolkien's normal way of marking that something happened
here, once (aren't there several places in his works where things never
grow after something terrible happened there?).

  > > The forest Hedge is covered in cobwebs.

 > I think it's more a sign that the woods are rarely entered, and I imagine
 > that represents danger.

indeed, the hedge is described as "looming" at this point, and the whole
passage gives me a feeling of unease. the cobwebs certainly don't make
it more cheerful.

[gate into forest]

 > I'm sure thinking ahead was part of it. Perhaps they were also thumbing
 > their noses at the trees.

they wouldn't be the first to think they could lock out the rest of the
world...

 > I think we're dealing with something akin to Huorns here. Tolkien never
 > really explains what is in the Old Forest, and the biggest hint is Bombadil
 > talking about Old Man Willow being a big player. I'd love to know precisely
 > what Old Man Willow was. Was he an Ent gone bad?

he certainly has more abilities than your average weeping willow. on the
other hand, he's clearly well rooted in his spot, and quite tree-like.
he must have gone treeish for a long time, if he's an ent.

--
Tamf, lellow dwagin and CHOKLIT-eater at your service.

Hunting is no fun
when the rabbit has the gun.
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