Criticism of the beat generation.

Thank You for your post as it was inteligent

"Dale Houstman" <dmh7 RemoveThis @citilink.com> wrote in message
news:3F7EE123.2040909@citilink.com...
 >
 >
 > Will Dockery wrote:
  > > "taris" <taris RemoveThis @no.email.please> wrote in message
news:<v9%eb.5364$Fv5.1496@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
  > >
   > >>"William Laubernds" <manunkind RemoveThis @hush.com> wrote in message
   > >>news:c92dce4e.0310010658.32e5a13a@posting.google.com...
   > >>
   > >>>I doing a college level research paper on the beat generation, and am
   > >>>having trouble finding people that are oppose to the literary work
   > >>>that derived from their movement...if someone knows of a book,
   > >>>article, or website that bashes the beats, or atleast gives a
   > >>>differnet side on the literary importance of their work, i would
   > >>>greatly apperciate it.
   > >>>
   > >>>Thanks in advanced.
   > >>>William
   > >>>
   > >>
   > >>A lot of people thought that the Beats did terrible things to poetry,
   > >>especially with regard to meter and rhyme.
   > >>
   > >>Actually, I just searched on google for meter, rhyme, poetry, and
ginsberg -
   > >>came up with this for instance:
   > >>
   > >>http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/tsteele/TSpage4/LAT.html
   > >>
   > >>Not exactly focused on bashing the Beats, but serves for showing that
some
   > >>people have reacted against their work.
   > >>
   > >>-taris-
  > >
  > >
  > > I love the Beats myself, but I've just crossposted this to a bunch of
  > > dummies who have and will gladly trash the Beats. Some even claim to
  > > *hate* Kerouac, if you can believe such idiocy.
  > > Will
  > >
<font color=green>  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://willdockery0.tripod.com/</font" target="_blank">http://willdockery0.tripod.com/</font</a>>
 >
 > Actually, you asked us why we "hate" Kerouac, and most of us said that
 > "hate" was too strong a word: we merely have educated opinions about him
 > that differ with your opinions about him. That's it, really.
 >
 > I - for one - don't "trash the Beats" (I notice you like to use
 > inflammatory and extreme phrases in hopes of creating a "scene": quite a
 > low-life occupation that.) I rather like the movement. But- like all art
 > - it is open to criticism, both positive and negative. I didn't call you
 > an idiot for liking Jack's poetry (I said I liked some of his prose), so
 > I don't see why you should call anyone an idiot for not liking it,
 > especially if they give reasons. I've read the Beats extensively: my
 > preference is for Burroughs as one of the most original writers, and for
 > Gary Snyder as one of the best poets of the group, who - moreover - has
 > a more integrated sense of what Buddhism might mean in America. Yet I
 > have nothing against you for choosing a person I consider to be the
 > worst POET of the Beats as an exemplar of that genre. That's fine.
 >
 > Jack is a very interesting American type of the 50s, and his prose gives
 > a good look into that archetype. His poetry doesn't do that as well. So
 > I prefer his prose. Get over it.
 >
 > dmh
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

"MI6 U2" <for-my-eyes-only.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BgNxb.8174$i81.4760@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
 > Thank You for your post as it was inteligent

He *do* come across like that, sometimes.
Will

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lulu.com/dockery" target="_blank">http://www.lulu.com/dockery</a>

 > "Dale Houstman" <dmh7.TakeThisOut@citilink.com> wrote in message
 > news:3F7EE123.2040909@citilink.com...
  > >
  > >
  > > Will Dockery wrote:
   > > > "taris" <taris.TakeThisOut@no.email.please> wrote in message
 > news:<v9%eb.5364$Fv5.1496@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
   > > >
   > > >>"William Laubernds" <manunkind.TakeThisOut@hush.com> wrote in message
   > > >>news:c92dce4e.0310010658.32e5a13a@posting.google.com...
   > > >>
   > > >>>I doing a college level research paper on the beat generation, and am
   > > >>>having trouble finding people that are oppose to the literary work
   > > >>>that derived from their movement...if someone knows of a book,
   > > >>>article, or website that bashes the beats, or atleast gives a
   > > >>>differnet side on the literary importance of their work, i would
   > > >>>greatly apperciate it.
   > > >>>
   > > >>>Thanks in advanced.
   > > >>>William
   > > >>>
   > > >>
   > > >>A lot of people thought that the Beats did terrible things to poetry,
   > > >>especially with regard to meter and rhyme.
   > > >>
   > > >>Actually, I just searched on google for meter, rhyme, poetry, and
 > ginsberg -
   > > >>came up with this for instance:
   > > >>
   > > >>http://instructional1.calstatela.edu/tsteele/TSpage4/LAT.html
   > > >>
   > > >>Not exactly focused on bashing the Beats, but serves for showing that
 > some
   > > >>people have reacted against their work.
   > > >>
   > > >>-taris-
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > I love the Beats myself, but I've just crossposted this to a bunch of
   > > > dummies who have and will gladly trash the Beats. Some even claim to
   > > > *hate* Kerouac, if you can believe such idiocy.
   > > > Will
   > > >
<font color=brown>   > > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://willdockery0.tripod.com/</font" target="_blank">http://willdockery0.tripod.com/</font</a>>
  > >
  > > Actually, you asked us why we "hate" Kerouac, and most of us said that
  > > "hate" was too strong a word: we merely have educated opinions about him
  > > that differ with your opinions about him. That's it, really.
  > >
  > > I - for one - don't "trash the Beats" (I notice you like to use
  > > inflammatory and extreme phrases in hopes of creating a "scene": quite a
  > > low-life occupation that.) I rather like the movement. But- like all art
  > > - it is open to criticism, both positive and negative. I didn't call you
  > > an idiot for liking Jack's poetry (I said I liked some of his prose), so
  > > I don't see why you should call anyone an idiot for not liking it,
  > > especially if they give reasons. I've read the Beats extensively: my
  > > preference is for Burroughs as one of the most original writers, and for
  > > Gary Snyder as one of the best poets of the group, who - moreover - has
  > > a more integrated sense of what Buddhism might mean in America. Yet I
  > > have nothing against you for choosing a person I consider to be the
  > > worst POET of the Beats as an exemplar of that genre. That's fine.
  > >
  > > Jack is a very interesting American type of the 50s, and his prose gives
  > > a good look into that archetype. His poetry doesn't do that as well. So
  > > I prefer his prose. Get over it.
  > >
  > > dmh
  > >
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

Gee Will (what's up) thank you for the post but at times I actually hate
EVERYONE even MUM and the Tooth Fairy (and she gave me money)!

S>O>S>F>

  > > Will Dockery wrote:
   > > > "taris" <taris.TakeThisOut@no.email.please> wrote in message
 > news:<v9%eb.5364$Fv5.1496@newssvr16.news.prodigy.com>...
 > Wow! Thanks for the thoughtful response, Dale. Sorry I called you an
idiot,
 > and the other inflamatory things I typed while crossposting this over. I
 > basically should have let the original post speak for itself. *But*,
someone
 > on this group did write that they "hated" Kerouac... they've probably left
 > already, since they were probably just trying to inflame me in a low life
 > sort of way.
 > Will<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

snip snip snip

"Dale Houstman" <dmh7.RemoveThis@citilink.com> wrote in message
news:3F7EE123.2040909@citilink.com...
 > I - for one - don't "trash the Beats"

(note: good be consistent now)
***

 > I rather like the movement. But- like all art
 > - it is open to criticism, both positive and negative.

(NOTE : DAMN ACADEMICS)

 > I didn't call you an idiot for liking Jack's poetry

NOTE: WHO'S BACK PEDALING HERE??

 >(I said I liked some of his prose)

NOTE: WISHY WASHY TWIT

 > I don't see why you should call anyone an idiot for not liking it,

NOTE: WHO THE HELL SAYS?

 > especially if they give reasons

NOTE: I SUPPOSE YOUR FASCIST AHOLE IS THE BEST JUDGE

 > I've read the Beats extensively

NOTE: GOOD FOR YOU SO WHAT? MEANING WHAT? YOU"RE QUALIFIED?
FOR WHAT? PUKING OUT YOUR AHOLE?

 > preference is for Burroughs as one of the most original writers

NOTE: DAMN SUICIDAL JUNKIES THEY ARE BLESSINGS AND CURSES BUT THEN AGAIN YOU
DONT GIV A FUCK

 > Gary Snyder as one of the best poets of the group

WHO THE FUCH SAYS? WHO THE F__K QUALIFIES HIM OR YOU FOR SH_T (or to say
shit?)
YOU ACADEMIC AHOLE ON A FROG'S ASS!!!!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

I've been enjoying Gregory Corso's poems the most, lately.
Will

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lulu.com/dockery" target="_blank">http://www.lulu.com/dockery</a>

"MI6 U2" <for-my-eyes-only RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:fANxb.11079$lF6.437@nwrdny01.gnilink.net...
 > snip snip snip
 >
 > "Dale Houstman" <dmh7 RemoveThis @citilink.com> wrote in message
 > news:3F7EE123.2040909@citilink.com...
  > > I - for one - don't "trash the Beats"
 >
 > (note: good be consistent now)
 > ***
 >
  > > I rather like the movement. But- like all art
  > > - it is open to criticism, both positive and negative.
 >
 > (NOTE : DAMN ACADEMICS)
 >
  > > I didn't call you an idiot for liking Jack's poetry
 >
 > NOTE: WHO'S BACK PEDALING HERE??
 >
  > >(I said I liked some of his prose)
 >
 > NOTE: WISHY WASHY TWIT
 >
  > > I don't see why you should call anyone an idiot for not liking it,
 >
 > NOTE: WHO THE HELL SAYS?
 >
  > > especially if they give reasons
 >
 > NOTE: I SUPPOSE YOUR FASCIST AHOLE IS THE BEST JUDGE
 >
  > > I've read the Beats extensively
 >
 > NOTE: GOOD FOR YOU SO WHAT? MEANING WHAT? YOU"RE QUALIFIED?
 > FOR WHAT? PUKING OUT YOUR AHOLE?
 >
  > > preference is for Burroughs as one of the most original writers
 >
 > NOTE: DAMN SUICIDAL JUNKIES THEY ARE BLESSINGS AND CURSES BUT THEN AGAIN
YOU
 > DONT GIV A FUCK
 >
  > > Gary Snyder as one of the best poets of the group
 >
 > WHO THE FUCH SAYS? WHO THE F__K QUALIFIES HIM OR YOU FOR SH_T (or to say
 > shit?)
 > YOU ACADEMIC AHOLE ON A FROG'S ASS!!!!
 >
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

MI6 U2 wrote:
 > snip snip snip
 >
 > "Dale Houstman" <dmh7.DeleteThis@citilink.com> wrote in message
 > news:3F7EE123.2040909@citilink.com...
 >
  >>I - for one - don't "trash the Beats"
 >
 >
 > (note: good be consistent now)

Why, for heaven's sake?

 > ***
 >
 >
  >>I rather like the movement. But- like all art
  >>- it is open to criticism, both positive and negative.
 >
 >
 > (NOTE : DAMN ACADEMICS)

A rather inappropriate response.

 >
 >
  >>I didn't call you an idiot for liking Jack's poetry
 >
 >
 > NOTE: WHO'S BACK PEDALING HERE??

Since I NEVER called him an idiot for liking Jack's poetry, it can't be
a backpedal, can it?

 >
 >
  >>(I said I liked some of his prose)
 >
 >
 > NOTE: WISHY WASHY TWIT

Nothing like that at all. I DO like his prose, and I DON'T like his
poetry. I have definite opinions on both.

 >
 >
  >>I don't see why you should call anyone an idiot for not liking it,
 >
 >
 > NOTE: WHO THE HELL SAYS?

Well - I just did.

 >
 >
  >>especially if they give reasons
 >
 >
 > NOTE: I SUPPOSE YOUR FASCIST AHOLE IS THE BEST JUDGE

Again, a quite inappropriate response. I didn't even say they had to be
GOOD reasons, just SOME reasons. Hardly the stuff of fascism.

 >
 >
  >>I've read the Beats extensively
 >
 >
 > NOTE: GOOD FOR YOU SO WHAT? MEANING WHAT? YOU"RE QUALIFIED?
 > FOR WHAT? PUKING OUT YOUR AHOLE?

When you reach for your medication, do you knock over your teddy bear?

 >
 >
  >>preference is for Burroughs as one of the most original writers
 >
 >
 > NOTE: DAMN SUICIDAL JUNKIES THEY ARE BLESSINGS AND CURSES BUT THEN AGAIN YOU
 > DONT GIV A FUCK

Well, Jack seemed to be the more suicidal one. William - if you don't
know - lived to a ripe old age.

 >
 >
  >>Gary Snyder as one of the best poets of the group
 >
 >
 > WHO THE FUCH SAYS?

Well - plain to see - I did. I didn't claim it was a FACT, just my opinion.

WHO THE F__K QUALIFIES HIM OR YOU FOR SH_T (or to say
 > shit?)
 > YOU ACADEMIC AHOLE ON A FROG'S ASS!!!!

Your writing is atrocious, but your reading skills seem worse.

dmh<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

DAMN STALE IVORY TOWER ACADEMICS A G SOLD OUT WHEN HE STARTED CATERING TO
THE ACADEMICS AND SO-CALLED LITERATI ..... BEFORE YOU BASTARDS CAN LEARN HOW
(LEARN OW) 2 (TO) rite (WRITE) U (YOU) HAV (HAVE) TA (TO)
LEARN OW (HOW) Ta (2)(TO) 1st (first) U/YOU DUMB (STUPID) TWITS
(USELESSNESS).

with best wishs
S?O?S?F?

"Steve Hayes" <hayesstw.spamless.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:3f8e290d.181341939@news.saix.net...
 > On 1 Oct 2003 07:58:14 -0700, manunkind.TakeThisOut@hush.com (William Laubernds)
wrote:
 >
  > >I doing a college level research paper on the beat generation, and am
  > >having trouble finding people that are oppose to the literary work
  > >that derived from their movement...if someone knows of a book,
  > >article, or website that bashes the beats, or atleast gives a
  > >differnet side on the literary importance of their work, i would
  > >greatly apperciate it.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

"MI6 U2" <for-my-eyes-only.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mcNxb.6479$UG2.911@nwrdny03.gnilink.net...
> Who ever said you people know how to sign your names properly,

I say it.

complete a
> whole thought,

Never completed a partial thought yet. That's two.

>or write for that matter?

Write for which matter? Your post is incomplete. Two and a half.

> You academic a-holes.

Thank you. You've brought academia closer to home than my mother would
allow- she used to put it in a pig's eye. My friends say it's out in left
field and my girlfriend just calls it off-the-wall. At least you've
acknowledged one of my orifices- if I work on the other six I might gain a
Taoist wholeness that allows me to be as complete as a turtle in the mud. In
the meantime, you're a twit.

Malcolm
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

In article <ncgzb.5290$t87.3364@nwrdny02.gnilink.net>,
"news.verizon.net" <for-my-eyes-only.RemoveThis@verykoolmail.com> wrote:

> Gee Crow (two left) foot/s, you are another conceited, pompous
> (sel-serving)
> ass (aren't you,,,,,, though I agree I can generalize)
> as (you say):
>
> > Uh -- 14 published books, two of them non-fiction? And I only teach on
> > a brief, contract basis, next time a week this upcoming spring. You
> > want
> > to watch those generalizations, especially when you are ticked off.
> > They are tricky . . .
>
> doesn't not mean you are qualified as a writer (does it??)!!!

?? Never mind, you decide. Not worth my time to engage with you
further.

C
--
Crow
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

"Crowfoot" <suzych DeleteThis @swcp.com> wrote in message
news:bq9ar6$ir1$1@iruka.swcp.com...
> In article <mcNxb.6479$UG2.911@nwrdny03.gnilink.net>, "MI6 U2"
> <for-my-eyes-only DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Who ever said you people know how to sign your names properly, complete
a
> > whole thought, or write for that matter?
> >
> > You academic a-holes.
>
> Uh -- 14 published books, two of them non-fiction? And I only teach on
> a brief, contract basis, next time a week this upcoming spring. You want
> to watch those generalizations, especially when you are ticked off.
> They are tricky . . .
>
> Never cared for the Beats, myself; too full of white-boy machismo for my
> taste.

At first I thought you wrote "white boy MASOCHISM" and while
I did not really agree with that either, my misreading makes more
sense than your "white-boy MACHISMO." Your taste is what
it is, and far be it from me to try and question it, but I certainly
do question your statement. I find far more "white boy
machismo" in any Hemingway book I have ever read than
in any beat book or poem I've encountered. The reason I
said "white boy masochism" is that sometimes in beat
writings I find indications of literary types being ashamed
of their culture because of its supposed wrongs and injustices--
the white guilt trip, thing, I mean--and are sort of whining about
that rather than doing something positive with it. In the
better beat writings, what seems significant to me has little
or nothing to do with that sort of thing. But a lot of "white boy
machismo" in the Beats? No, I don't get that from them at all,
and I have read much of their work which made it into City
Lights, and most that made it to New Directions and the
mass market publishers.



the alt.genius.bill-palmer
--now firing posts at random from a window in the
office above rec.arts.prose
>
> C
> --
> Crow
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

"MI6 U2" <for-my-eyes-only DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:C8Nxb.8130$i81.1849@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
: What the heck do you need such works for?
:
: "William Laubernds" <manunkind DeleteThis @hush.com> wrote in message
: news:c92dce4e.0310010658.32e5a13a@posting.google.com...
: > I am doing a college level research paper on the beat generation, and am
: > having trouble finding people that are opposed to the literary work
: > that derived from their movement. If someone knows of a book,
: > article, or website that bashes the beats, or at least gives a
: > different side of the question of the literary importance of their work, I
would
: > greatly appreciate it.
: >
You don't suppose he's trying to write a balanced paper do you? Nah, he's
obviously just out to belittle your beloved beat authors for no good reason.
Honestly, is there something about the anonymity of usenet that makes people act
out like this?
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation. 

"J Lee, Director of Operations" <search.TakeThisOut@steve.franklin.google> wrote in message news:<ByRAb.11$gg1.166675@news.abs.net>...
 > "MI6 U2" <for-my-eyes-only.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
 > news:C8Nxb.8130$i81.1849@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
 > : What the heck do you need such works for?
 > :
 > : "William Laubernds" <manunkind.TakeThisOut@hush.com> wrote in message
 > : news:c92dce4e.0310010658.32e5a13a@posting.google.com...
 > : > I am doing a college level research paper on the beat generation, and am
 > : > having trouble finding people that are opposed to the literary work
 > : > that derived from their movement. If someone knows of a book,
 > : > article, or website that bashes the beats, or at least gives a
 > : > different side of the question of the literary importance of their work, I
 > would
 > : > greatly appreciate it.
 > : >
 > You don't suppose he's trying to write a balanced paper do you? Nah, he's
 > obviously just out to belittle your beloved beat authors for no good reason.

He better not do that!!!

 > Honestly, is there something about the anonymity of usenet that makes people act
 > out like this?

I dunno... plenty of f*ckwits out there, though.

"Mirror Twins" by Will Dockery:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://my.lulu.com/items/29000/29085/preview/Will_Dockery_-_03_-_Track__3.mp3" target="_blank">http://my.lulu.com/items/29000/29085/preview/Will_Dockery_-_03_-_Track__3.mp3</a>

Mirror Twins.

Persi Phone
and
Prosper Pine
watch
birds fly
darkness went
as dawn
came
God ghost dreams
dazed dum
passing
fall flowers
clouded memories
his lost selves
frolic singing
gleam moon
wavering chaste
shadow likeness
doppelganger dark mate
dead nahh mo
peeps
human-godlike
swimming winter gray
folded arms
mastabatin peeps
first peeps
serpent-wanded power
downward Hex drift
spectres, lighted below
red race fiery
befell
re-arise
lighted
cry
Shadowville, Iowa, and more!
pleasant vale
Kite field ablaze
flowers brighten,
black blur
chasm blue `64
dark rising
folded arms
shudder
face like uh glass
gulf
shrilly whinings
pierce songful air
arch'd necks midnight-maned
Jet upward No!
touch'd space
blank earth-baldness
crocus-purple hour
seen ya vanish
gone
human wives nested
lioness search
palace cot grave
tittie
waking
one whole
wail midnight winds
night whined
climb'd cliffs seas
ask'd waves moan
round voices
eagle-speak
negroid woods
tomb caves torms
Autumn swept city
murmur
turn'd
fled
grieved
kudzu shatter'd
serpent coil'd broken shaft
scorpion naked skulls
tiger ruin'd fame
Spring fallen
not far
labyrinthine dark
three grays beneath gleaming
voice from three
spin lives
why we's spin

dying man
flits warns
far-off nahh more
o' dreams heard cry
Drew likeness o' himself
shadow past
brudda Dark one
Bright sworn child
Power
lifts
Bride o' Darkness.

Shadowville wail'd
coffee smack'd o' hemlock,
colt 45 tasted aconite.
lives loves an hour
hard Eternities
quick tears ravings hush'd
Bird utter grief
life thro vine
helpless
Rain-rotten died, spears
hollow-husk'd,leaf fell,
Pale grief before his tyme
Sickening winter snow.
glancing from his height
fallow, miss'd
steam sacrifice,
nine moons with him
Three dark ones

reaper gleam dawn
landmark far away
field in dusk
threshing-floor
harvest LaGrange
ill-content
highest gray fox
"Save me from you?"
down before us?
hurl thunderbolt
nuetron sword bearer
noon into nightbreak
sunless halls
dark lord
die into Light
bright year
themselves against fear

Queen o' Swords
risen from dead
with mine
buried springing blade
Autumn
harvest hymns
see nahh more
Stone Wheel
dimly-glimmering lawns
hateful fires
torment shadowy warrior glide
silent field
in the hood

-Will Dockery<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Criticism of the beat generation.