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symphonia

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Since: Feb 19, 2004
Posts: 1



(Msg. 1) Posted: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:27 pm
Post subject: DC Wagner Society presents "The Two Rings" (Tolkien and Wagner) March 18, 2004
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)

In celebration of the completion of Peter Jackson's

monumental cycle of motion pictures The Lord of the Rings and in

anticipation of this year's performances of

Der Ring des Nibelungen at the

Metropolitan Opera --


The Wagner Society of Washington, DC presents


"The Two Rings: J.R.R.Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings and Richard Wagner's The
Ring of the Nibelung"


with


Edward R. Haymes
Professor of German and Comparative Literature
Cleveland State University


Thursday, March 18, 2004


7:30 p.m.


Funger Hall
George Washington University
2201 G Street, NW
Washington, DC



J.R.R.Tolkien vigorously denied any connection between his ring and "the
Nibelung's Ring." In actuality there is a great deal that is in common between
the two great "Ring Cycles" and this talk sets itself the goal of exploring
these and showing the many ways that the two great works illuminate each other.
Tolkienians will learn something about Wagner and vice versa.



Edward R. Haymes is Professor of German and Comparative Literature at Cleveland
State University. He published a book on the Middle High German Nibelungenlied
in 1999 and co-authored a survey of Heroic Legends of the North in 1996. He
regularly teaches as a guest at the Humboldt University in Berlin and has
lectured on medieval literature and Richard Wagner at many universities and
conferences in the US and Germany.



The Wagner Society of Washington, DC
P.O. Box 33051
Washington, DC 20033

Telephone: 301.907.2600
FAX: 301.907.8671

WWW: http://www.wagner-dc.org


Posted by

Janice Rosen, Founder

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user1313

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Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 92



(Msg. 2) Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: DC Wagner Society presents "The Two Rings" (Tolkien and Wagner) March 18, 20 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

Interesting, but...

Janice Rosen <symphonia DeleteThis @att.net> wrote:
 > J.R.R.Tolkien vigorously denied any connection between his ring and "the
 > Nibelung's Ring." In actuality there is a great deal that is in common between
 > the two great "Ring Cycles" and this talk sets itself the goal of exploring
 > these and showing the many ways that the two great works illuminate each other.
 > Tolkienians will learn something about Wagner and vice versa.

I don't think Tolkien would have "denied any connection",
if by that you mean that he denied that "there is a great deal
that is in common between the two [works]". He may well have
denied that he was directly inspired by Wagner. However, he
knew perfectly well that both he and Wagner were inspired by the
same sources. I guess it depends on what you mean by a
"connection".

--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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the_stan_brown

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Since: Jan 01, 2004
Posts: 632



(Msg. 3) Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2004 11:07 pm
Post subject: Re: DC Wagner Society presents "The Two Rings" (Tolkien and Wagner) March 18, 20 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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It seems "Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" wrote in
rec.arts.books.tolkien:
 > I don't think Tolkien would have "denied any connection",
 >if by that you mean that he denied that "there is a great deal
 >that is in common between the two [works]".

He _did_ deny it. "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance
ceases."

See cite in the FAQ of the Rings, at
  http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#1-Wagner

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Cortland County, New York, USA
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://OakRoadSystems.com" target="_blank">http://OakRoadSystems.com</a>
Tolkien FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://Tolkien.slimy.com" target="_blank">http://Tolkien.slimy.com</a> (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html" target="_blank">http://users.telerama.com/~taliesen/tolkien/lettersfaq.html</a>
FAQ of the Rings: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm</a>
Encyclopedia of Arda: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm" target="_blank">http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm</a>
more FAQs: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm" target="_blank">http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1313

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Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 92



(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:42 am
Post subject: Re: DC Wagner Society presents "The Two Rings" (Tolkien and Wagner) March 18, 20 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
 > It seems "Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" wrote in
 > rec.arts.books.tolkien:
  >> I don't think Tolkien would have "denied any connection",
  >>if by that you mean that he denied that "there is a great deal
  >>that is in common between the two [works]".
 > He _did_ deny it. "Both rings were round, and there the resemblance
 > ceases."
 > See cite in the FAQ of the Rings, at
  > http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#1-Wagner

I think your entry there does a great job of discussing the
issues, but you and I both seem to agree that his famous
statement was calculated hyperbole, and would have been
understood as such by his intended audience. The OP was
advertising a talk by stating that Tolkien "vehemently denied
any connection", taking as the contrary view that "there is a
great deal that is in common between the two [works]". Given
Tolkien's frequent statements about his inspirations in Northern
European legends, and the obvious fact that Wagner was inspired
by the same legends, Tolkien's statement can only be taken as a
denial that he was directly inspired by Wagner, not that there
was not "a great deal that is in common between the two
[works]", no matter what the literal meaning of the words is.

You and Tsar make a good case for the argument that Tolkien
_was_ directly inspired by Wagner, but it remains to be seen
whether the speaker in the talk is referring to that or to the
obvious mutual antecedents in Northern European legends.

--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1304

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Since: Jan 31, 2004
Posts: 64



(Msg. 5) Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2004 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: DC Wagner Society presents "The Two Rings" (Tolkien and Wagner) March 18, 20 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" <me DeleteThis @privacy.net> wrote
in message news:c1661d$1efu8n$1@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de...

 > You and Tsar make a good case for the argument that Tolkien
 > _was_ directly inspired by Wagner

Which I strenuously object to given the fact that we have access to the
texts where the nature of the Ring evolved and it clearly did so slowly
in response to the growing shape of the story rather than being
introduced as a completed concept from outside the text. The
similarities really aren't that close to begin with and strike me as
more likely being of coincidence than construction.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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bkwrm79

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Since: Feb 21, 2004
Posts: 15



(Msg. 6) Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2004 11:55 pm
Post subject: Re: DC Wagner Society presents "The Two Rings" (Tolkien and Wagner) March 18, 20 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Conrad B Dvnkerson" <conrad.dvnkerson@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:kt4_b.42709$M8.20417@nwrdny02.gnilink.net...
 > "Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" <me.RemoveThis@privacy.net> wrote
 > in message news:c1661d$1efv8n$1@ID-193590.news.vni-berlin.de...
 >
  > > Yov and Tsar make a good case for the argvment that Tolkien
  > > _was_ directly inspired by Wagner
 >
 > Which I strenvovsly object to given the fact that we have access to the
 > texts where the natvre of the Ring evolved and it clearly did so slowly
 > in response to the growing shape of the story rather than being
 > introdvced as a completed concept from ovtside the text. The
 > similarities really aren't that close to begin with and strike me as
 > more likely being of coincidence than constrvction.

I once read a very interesting article svggesting that LOTR is a
*refvtation* of Wagner. That wovld be 'inspired by' in a sense, bvt hardly
a type of inspiration that wovld lead Tolkien to credit Wagner. Nor wovld
he have wanted to hammer his disagreements with Wagner, given his advice on
what to do if yov want to send a message. (Excellent advice. 'Use Western
Union.')<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1319

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Since: Feb 06, 2004
Posts: 6



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 12:57 pm
Post subject: Re: DC Wagner Society presents "The Two Rings" (Tolkien and Wagner) March 18, 20 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"Jamie Andrews; real address @ bottom of message" <me DeleteThis @privacy.net> ha
scritto nel messaggio news:c1661d$1efu8n$1@ID-193590.news.uni-berlin.de...

[...]
 > Tolkien's statement can only be taken as a
 > denial that he was directly inspired by Wagner...

I agrre with you in that JRRT may have meant to distance himself from RW: if
it is plainly evident, one the one hand, that the two works share a great
deal of thematic sources, on the other Tolkien may have disliked the way RW
interpreted the myths, possibly because of the heavy burden of prejudice and
political interference which the fruition and interpretation of RW's dramas
was laden with at the time. I think no-one can blame an Englishman of the
first half of the XX century for having a certain degree of prejudice
against RW... Surely JRRT did not like those who may have been the prominent
RW fans at the time. So I think that the bluntness of his statement was
intended to sweep away any doubt, that his work "derived" from RW's,
especially to the eyes of the average cultured European who may have read
LotR and attended Ring nights at the local opera house, but who would never
read Beowylf or such...

It is sad that a similar burden of prejudice would then be cast on JRRT's
work too...

 > --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)

Il Moro (libertà va cercando, ch'è sì cara, come sa chi per lei vita
rifiuta) Smile<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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user1313

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Since: Feb 02, 2004
Posts: 92



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: DC Wagner Society presents "The Two Rings" (Tolkien and Wagner) March 18, 20 [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Il_Moro <il.moroNOSP RemoveThis @minwind.it> wrote:
 > I agrre with you in that JRRT may have meant to distance himself from RW: if
 > it is plainly evident, one the one hand, that the two works share a great
 > deal of thematic sources, on the other Tolkien may have disliked the way RW
 > interpreted the myths, possibly because of the heavy burden of prejudice and
 > political interference which the fruition and interpretation of RW's dramas
 > was laden with at the time. I think no-one can blame an Englishman of the
 > first half of the XX century for having a certain degree of prejudice
 > against RW... Surely JRRT did not like those who may have been the prominent
 > RW fans at the time. So I think that the bluntness of his statement was
 > intended to sweep away any doubt, that his work "derived" from RW's,
 > especially to the eyes of the average cultured European who may have read
 > LotR and attended Ring nights at the local opera house, but who would never
 > read Beowylf or such...

An excellent description. Also, RW was even more
antisemitic than average for his time, and I think we can say
that JRRT was less antisemitic than average for his time, so
JRRT would have had extra incentive to deny direct influence,
especially in the aftermath of the Second World War. (We hashed
out the issues of the relevant quotations from JRRT regarding
Judaism a few months ago here.)

  >> --Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
 > Il Moro (liberta va cercando, ch'e si cara, come sa chi per lei vita
 > rifiuta) Smile

I had to look that one up (sorry, I read the _Divine
Comedy_ in translation Smile). Very appropriate for Frodo!
I found a translation on the excellent website:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.greatdante.net/quots.htm" target="_blank">http://www.greatdante.net/quots.htm</a>

--Jamie. (nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita)
andrews .uwo } Merge these two lines to obtain my e-mail address.
@csd .ca } (Unsolicited "bulk" e-mail costs everyone.)<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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