DIY Publishing questions

"A-B C." wrote in message

 > Edward Casey wrote:
 >
  > > A block of 10 ISBN's can be purchased from R.R. Bowker for a
"reasonable"
  > > price according to Dan Poynter.
  > >
 >
 > Not as "reasonable" as it used to be. We got a block of 100 for about
$150 as
 > I remember.... back in 1990.
 >
  > > 1) Does each isbn apply to a title, an edition, a printing or what?
  > >
 >
 > To the title.
 >
 > Some folks will assign a new ISBN to a second edition, some don't. It'
really
 > up to you. A "printing" has nothing to do with ISBNs. Indeed, the word
 > "printing" really means nothing. You hear "in it's 4th printing" but
they
 > might have only printed 100 copies in the first 3 !!!
 >
 > The same is true with the word "edition." It means different things to
 > different publishers... and to the public at large it only means that
the
 > "4th edition" is newer than the 2nd or 3rd.... and that's about it.
 >
 >
  > > 2) How much can the physical book (cover, text block, dimensions,
format,
  > > paper grade, fonts, etc.) vary between edtions, printings, etc.)
  > >
 >
 > It's YOUR book. You make the call. No one will know or care. No rules
here.
 >
  > > 3) Can the cover be changed in any way within a single printing? (Keep
in
  > > mind that a printing in the context of a home brew operation could be
a
  > > single copy).
  > >
 >
 > Again, you are hung up on the term "printing" which means nothing to
anyone
 > anymore. Indeed, even large runs are sometimes done with several covers
for
 > different markets... it's expensive... but sometimes the marketing
benefits
 > out weigh the costs.
 >
  > > Does any of you have authoritative answers to any or all of these
  > > questions.
  > >
 >
 > There really are no "authoritative" answers to these questions....
except that
 > a title MUST have an ISBN if you want it to be carried by the book
trade.
 > Bowkers used to publish some "rules" on all of this, and maybe they
still
 > do... but no one gives a damn. People do what they want and what is best
for
 > them.
 >
 > Spend you time worrying about how you are going to market the book...
not on
 > any of this trivia.
 >
 > Al Canton
 > Adams-Blake Company, Inc.
 > ***
 > JAYA123 - the new web-based total-office system for the
 > small biz. Order entry, billing, bookkeeping, etc. for $14.95
 > a month. Everyone says "It's cool as a moose!!"
 > See why at:http://www.jaya123.com
 > ***
 >
 >

Thanks, Al. Can I call you Al? You told me exactly what I wanted to hear.
I am one of those losers who is convinced that the marketing aspect is
also mox nix. Btw, do you think that "Finnegans Wake" would have sold
better in 1939 if it had stuck with its earlier catchier title, "Work in
Progress?"

Thanks again,

Ed<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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A-B C. wrote:
 > Edward Casey wrote:
 >
 >
  >>A block of 10 ISBN's can be purchased from R.R. Bowker for a "reasonable"
  >>price according to Dan Poynter.
  >>
 >
 >
 > Not as "reasonable" as it used to be. We got a block of 100 for about $150 as
 > I remember.... back in 1990.

I seem to remember paying something like $150-$200 for a mere block of
10, last year. I'd have to check my expense log to be sure. But I bet
you can get the current price from the Bowker web site.

____________
Grant Petty
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Browse my new book "A First Course in Atmospheric Radiation"
at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Grant" wrote in message

 > A-B C. wrote:
  > > Edward Casey wrote:
  > >
  > >
   > >>A block of 10 ISBN's can be purchased from R.R. Bowker for a
"reasonable"
   > >>price according to Dan Poynter.
   > >>
  > >
  > >
  > > Not as "reasonable" as it used to be. We got a block of 100 for about
$150 as
  > > I remember.... back in 1990.
 >
 > I seem to remember paying something like $150-$200 for a mere block of
 > 10, last year. I'd have to check my expense log to be sure. But I bet
 > you can get the current price from the Bowker web site.
 >
 > ____________
 > Grant Petty
 > University of Wisconsin-Madison
 > Browse my new book "A First Course in Atmospheric Radiation"
<font color=purple> > at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm</font</a>>

Thanks, Grant. According to the Bowker website it will cost a minimum of
$75 (non-refundable processing fee) plus $20 for 10 ISBN numbers. I assume
that the publisher can print its own barcodes (is it with a final X
character for variable pricing?)

Ed.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

Edward Casey wrote:
 > Thanks, Grant. According to the Bowker website it will cost a minimum of
 > $75 (non-refundable processing fee) plus $20 for 10 ISBN numbers. I assume
 > that the publisher can print its own barcodes (is it with a final X
 > character for variable pricing?)
 > Ed.

Wrong, very wrong.
See the middle of this page for _accurate_ ISBN price info:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/isbn/us/printable/isbn.asp" target="_blank">http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/isbn/us/printable/isbn.asp</a>

Excerpt:
The Publisher Registration Fee is as follows:
$19.95 10 ISBNs; $53.95 100 ISBNs; $159.95 1000 ISBNs; $399.95 10,000
ISBNs.

For your convenience, an electronic copy of your ISBN log book will be
stored on Bowker’s BowkerLink website (a copy of your log book will also
be e-mailed to you if requested). See attachment to application for
further information.

ISBN PREFIX EXPRESS PROCESSING FEE PRIORITY PROCESSING FEE REGULAR
PROCESSING FEE
10 ISBNs $350.00 $300.00 $225.00
100 ISBNs $925.00 $875.00 $800.00
1,000 ISBNs $1,325.00 $1,275.00 $1,200.00
Annual Online Service Fee of $20: There is an annual fee for continuing
access to your electronic log book. However, your first year online log
book service set up is free.
-----------
Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://abintrapress.tripod.com" target="_blank">http://abintrapress.tripod.com</a>
Fictionwise: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/26v45" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/26v45</a>
Ebookad: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/2o5d6" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2o5d6</a>
Mobipocket: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/239v3" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/239v3</a>
Powell's: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/388jc" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/388jc</a>
Amazon: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/2nnbn" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2nnbn</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

"AUWG" wrote in message

 > Edward Casey wrote:
  > > Thanks, Grant. According to the Bowker website it will cost a minimum
of
  > > $75 (non-refundable processing fee) plus $20 for 10 ISBN numbers. I
assume
  > > that the publisher can print its own barcodes (is it with a final X
  > > character for variable pricing?)
  > > Ed.
 >
 > Wrong, very wrong.
 > See the middle of this page for _accurate_ ISBN price info:
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/isbn/us/printable/isbn.asp</font" target="_blank">http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/isbn/us/printable/isbn.asp</font</a>>
 >
 > Excerpt:
 > The Publisher Registration Fee is as follows:
 > $19.95 10 ISBNs; $53.95 100 ISBNs; $159.95 1000 ISBNs; $399.95 10,000
 > ISBNs.
 >
 > For your convenience, an electronic copy of your ISBN log book will be
 > stored on Bowker's BowkerLink website (a copy of your log book will also
 > be e-mailed to you if requested). See attachment to application for
 > further information.
 >
 > ISBN PREFIX EXPRESS PROCESSING FEE PRIORITY PROCESSING FEE REGULAR
 > PROCESSING FEE
 > 10 ISBNs $350.00 $300.00 $225.00
 > 100 ISBNs $925.00 $875.00 $800.00
 > 1,000 ISBNs $1,325.00 $1,275.00 $1,200.00
 > Annual Online Service Fee of $20: There is an annual fee for continuing
 > access to your electronic log book. However, your first year online log
 > book service set up is free.


OK. Thanks. So it costs $225 more than I thought it did. Two more
questions: what are the consequences of not paying the $20 Annual Online
Service Fee? What are the consequences of not getting ISBN's at all? As
long as the book is copyrighted it can be sold from a website without any
ISBN, right? Of course bookstores won't take it seriously but that may or
may not be important.

Ed
Btw, in the interim I learned that the isbn price add-on code is 90000,
not X.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Edward Casey" wrote in message
 >
 > Ed
 > Btw, in the interim I learned that the isbn price add-on code is 90000,
 > not X.

The X is one of 10 possible check digits. The four fields in an ISBN
areare
Country code (1 digit)
Publisher prefix (variable, 2 to 7 digits)
Book serial (variable, 1 to 6 digits)
Modulo 11 (?) check digit 1 digit

There is a separate bar code for the price. This is 9000 for a
"price not stated" situation and 5xxxx for an actual price in dollars
and cents, up to $99.99.

A serial of just one digit means a block of ten which means a
self-publisher.
You can disguise this a bit by just leaving out the dash between
fields 2 and 3 above.

For books which talk about the ISBN and many other important
publishing topics
here is my short list:
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wexfordpress.com/tex/shortlist.pdf" target="_blank">http://wexfordpress.com/tex/shortlist.pdf</a>

IMO published books are more reliable than internet posts, including
this one
John Culleton
Able Typesetters and Indexers
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://wexfordpress.com" target="_blank">http://wexfordpress.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

Edward Casey wrote:

  > > Wrong, very wrong.
  > > See the middle of this page for _accurate_ ISBN price info:
<font color=green>  > > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/isbn/us/printable/isbn.asp</font" target="_blank">http://www.isbn.org/standards/home/isbn/us/printable/isbn.asp</font</a>>
 > OK. Thanks. So it costs $225 more than I thought it did. Two more
 > questions: what are the consequences of not paying the $20 Annual Online
 > Service Fee?

Don't know. I bought ISBNs before they tacked that fee on.

 > What are the consequences of not getting ISBN's at all?

Limited placement. Do you want your stuff in Amazon, Powell's, and
elsewhere in which ISBNs are expected or required?

 > As long as the book is copyrighted it can be sold from a website without
 > any ISBN, right?

Yup. ISBNs aren't required by law, just required by most book resellers.

 > Of course bookstores won't take it seriously but that may or
 > may not be important.

If you're going to use POD or pay someone to print for you a pile of
books to resell, the bookstores aren't likely to take your books
seriously with or without an ISBN.
They like fat discounts and the ability to return books, and they tend
to do their shopping within the traditional distribution channels such
as Ingram and Baker & Taylor.

I don't bother with paper-publishing hassles.
Ed Howdershelt - Abintra Press
Science Fiction and Semi-Fiction
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://abintrapress.tripod.com" target="_blank">http://abintrapress.tripod.com</a>
Fictionwise: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/26v45" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/26v45</a>
Ebookad: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/2o5d6" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2o5d6</a>
Mobipocket: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/239v3" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/239v3</a>
Powell's: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/388jc" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/388jc</a>
Amazon: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/2nnbn" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/2nnbn</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:24:53 -0500, "Edward Casey"
wrote:

>Thanks, John. I doubt whether it's worth while trying to disguise the
>publisher prefix unless you can legally collapse the whole ISBN into a ten
>digit string with no separators. Even in this case, a book in English
>(prefix 0) with a 2nd of 9 and a 3rd digit 5 or more, indicate a self
>publisher who plans to pen a life-time oeuvre consisting of no more than
>10 titles.

The separators make no difference to the way an ISBN is turned into a
barcode, so, for the barcode itself, as read by a scanner, there is no
difference between big and small.

I'm sure we all know that bookstore owners and clerks spend hours each
day checking whether an ISBN has a single digit equence indicator or a
two digit or three digit one. They also check whether that now medium
sized publisher started with a 10-digit sequence and then got another,
and another, or whether they opted for 100 and then got a couple of 10
sequences. And it would be a disaster if a largish publisher got
separate small sequences for imprints which are joint ventures likely
to only have a few titles.

Most small publishers look like small publishers because the
information in the main databases is incomplete, or flawed, or the
occasional retailer who really wants to help a customer can't find a
phone number to call up to make a price-and-availability check, and if
they find that they get someone who can't tell them who the wholesaler
or distributor is and doesn't know what discount they'll get if they
place a direct order or what postage they'll have to pay, or tell them
sorry but I can't take a credit card.


--
Gordon Woolf
The Worsley Press <www.worsleypress.com>
Publishers of "How to Start and Produce a Magazine or Newsletter"
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

Gordon Woolf wrote in message ...
> On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 17:24:53 -0500, "Edward Casey"
> wrote:
>
> >Thanks, John. I doubt whether it's worth while trying to disguise the
> >publisher prefix unless you can legally collapse the whole ISBN into a ten
> >digit string with no separators. Even in this case, a book in English
> >(prefix 0) with a 2nd of 9 and a 3rd digit 5 or more, indicate a self
> >publisher who plans to pen a life-time oeuvre consisting of no more than
> >10 titles.
>
> The separators make no difference to the way an ISBN is turned into a
> barcode, so, for the barcode itself, as read by a scanner, there is no
> difference between big and small.
>
> I'm sure we all know that bookstore owners and clerks spend hours each
> day checking whether an ISBN has a single digit equence indicator or a
> two digit or three digit one. They also check whether that now medium
> sized publisher started with a 10-digit sequence and then got another,
> and another, or whether they opted for 100 and then got a couple of 10
> sequences. And it would be a disaster if a largish publisher got
> separate small sequences for imprints which are joint ventures likely
> to only have a few titles.
>
> Most small publishers look like small publishers because the
> information in the main databases is incomplete, or flawed, or the
> occasional retailer who really wants to help a customer can't find a
> phone number to call up to make a price-and-availability check, and if
> they find that they get someone who can't tell them who the wholesaler
> or distributor is and doesn't know what discount they'll get if they
> place a direct order or what postage they'll have to pay, or tell them
> sorry but I can't take a credit card.

All very true. And it is not possible to look like Random House whilw
working out of the spare bedroom if indeed someone cares to research
your entity. I just suggested that deleting the middle hyphen made the
small time image less glaring, but it doesn't have that much effect. I
recently received a book for review where the hyphens were omitted on
the back cover but left in on the title verso. Cute, but ineffective.

A more solid strategy is to spend the extra bucks on a block of 100.
Then you look like a serious small timer at least.

Just whom are we trying to impress? Well for starters the prepub
reviewers. If you can get a review, even a tepid one, in _Publishers
Weekly_ or _Library Journal, and you book fills a niche, then you
can generate some library sales.

John Culleton
Able Typesetters and Indexers
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

"Edward Casey" wrote in message ...


  > > A-B C. wrote:
   > > > Edward Casey wrote:
   > > >
   > > >
   > > >>A block of 10 ISBN's can be purchased from R.R. Bowker for a
 > "reasonable"
   > > >>price according to Dan Poynter.
   > > >>
   > > >
   > > >
   > > > Not as "reasonable" as it used to be. We got a block of 100 for about
 > $150 as
   > > > I remember.... back in 1990.
  > >
  > > I seem to remember paying something like $150-$200 for a mere block of
  > > 10, last year. I'd have to check my expense log to be sure. But I bet
  > > you can get the current price from the Bowker web site.
  > >
  > > ____________
  > > Grant Petty
  > > University of Wisconsin-Madison
  > > Browse my new book "A First Course in Atmospheric Radiation"
<font color=green>  > > at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm</font" target="_blank">http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm</font</a>>
 >
 > Thanks, Grant. According to the Bowker website it will cost a minimum of
 > $75 (non-refundable processing fee) plus $20 for 10 ISBN numbers. I assume
 > that the publisher can print its own barcodes (is it with a final X
 > character for variable pricing?)
 >
 > Ed.

These misperceptions have been corrected on another thread. The X is a
check digit and the cost of a block of 10 is roughly $250 when all
charges are added in.

John Culleton<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

AUWG wrote:
  >>What are the consequences of not getting ISBN's at all?
 >
 >
 > Limited placement. Do you want your stuff in Amazon, Powell's, and
 > elsewhere in which ISBNs are expected or required?

Even an ISBN doesn't guarantee Amazon will list it. Apparently it has to
also be carried by a distributor like Baker and Taylor.

My own book turns up in searches on a number of web sites, including
Barnes and Noble, but not on Amazon. And if I submit my book's ISBN to
amazon's "recommend this book in addition to..", it kicks back an error
claiming it's not a valid ISBN.

Oddly enough, if I enter my name into Amazon's search engine, it turns
up lots of other documents, like NASA technical reports I was involved
with, that were never intended for commercial dissemination. It's a
mystery to me why (and how) Amazon picked up those kinds of documents to
include in their data base (though they don't actually sell copies), but
they won't list my textbook.


--
____________
Grant Petty
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Browse my new book "A First Course in Atmospheric Radiation"
at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

AUWG wrote:
  >> Annual Online Service Fee of $20: There is an annual fee for continuing
 > access to your electronic log book. However, your first year online log
 > book service set up is free.

Just got my renewal notice for this. It's not clear to me whether it's
worth the $20 per year to continue. What is it precisely that I lose if
I don't renew? Does it affect my ability to edit the bowkerlink.com
publisher authority database, etc.?

____________
Grant Petty
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Browse my new book "A First Course in Atmospheric Radiation"
at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: DIY Publishing questions 

Edward Casey wrote:
 > I assume
 > that the publisher can print its own barcodes

There are on-line vendors that will sell you a bar code for about $10.
You enter the ISBN, choose a couple of other options, and they e-mail
you an encapsulated PostScript file with your bar code, which you can
then place (e.g., inside Illustrator) on your back cover.

The order form for ISBN blocks appears to also offer the opportunity to
purchase bar codes, but at the significantly higher price of $25 each.


--
____________
Grant Petty
University of Wisconsin-Madison
Browse my new book "A First Course in Atmospheric Radiation"
at <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm" target="_blank">http://www.sundogpublishing.com/AtmosRad.htm</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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