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Next: Amazon selling Iain's next book already....
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Since: Mar 07, 2004 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sun Mar 07, 2004 9:56 pm
Post subject: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] Archived from groups: alt>books>iain-banks (more info?)
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Warning: Contains spoilers of the book Against a Dark Background
throughout
I've read quite a few reviews and posts about AaDB, quite a few were
negative and most seem to think it was bleak.
The abrupt ending may have just been a stylistic tribute to the old
serials, but it seems like this book may have actually been intended
to have a sequel. The world that was developed was closed and self
destructing, but had two of the defining features of the Culture in
proto-form: freedom for machine intelligence and hints of radical
genofixing being a restricted or lost technology.
I can imagine that attempts to look for ways out of the Dark into the
populated galaxy would almost naturally lead to at least some faction
attempting to enter into a partnership with the AIs and androids. Who
knows what kind of government powers would be left after the war
(and possibly Geis's revenge) to oppose such a group. The idea that
this is the background of the Culture seems to lead naturally to the
idea of Contact and the Culture's well intentioned meddling with other
systems.
Viewed in this light even the title seems to hint that this self-destructive
system may have been the Dark Background against which which the
Culture was born. The competence and friendship shown by the Feril,
as well as the rare moments of Feril's internal dialogue are somewhat
similar to those of the SC drones in the Culture books.
I started to form this impression about halfway through the book and the
introduction of the android as a character just made it stronger - with that
attitude the book did not seem so bleak to me, although the abrupt ending
was a slight shock. >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jul 24, 2003 Posts: 36
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:37 am
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jason M wrote:
> Warning: Contains spoilers of the book Against a Dark Background
> throughout
>
>
> I've read quite a few reviews and posts about AaDB, quite a few were
> negative and most seem to think it was bleak.
>
> The abrupt ending may have just been a stylistic tribute to the old
> serials, but it seems like this book may have actually been intended
> to have a sequel. The world that was developed was closed and self
> destructing, but had two of the defining features of the Culture in
> proto-form: freedom for machine intelligence and hints of radical
> genofixing being a restricted or lost technology.
>
> I can imagine that attempts to look for ways out of the Dark into the
> populated galaxy would almost naturally lead to at least some faction
> attempting to enter into a partnership with the AIs and androids. Who
> knows what kind of government powers would be left after the war
> (and possibly Geis's revenge) to oppose such a group. The idea that
> this is the background of the Culture seems to lead naturally to the
> idea of Contact and the Culture's well intentioned meddling with other
> systems.
>
> Viewed in this light even the title seems to hint that this
> self-destructive system may have been the Dark Background against
> which which the
> Culture was born. The competence and friendship shown by the Feril,
> as well as the rare moments of Feril's internal dialogue are somewhat
> similar to those of the SC drones in the Culture books.
>
I agree that it calls out for a sequel but Oh dear me no, its nothing to do
with the Culture. I think that is ruled out in Chapter 21. In the Orbit
edition it is bottom of page 402 and top of page 403: " For a distance that
was never less than a million light years in any direction around it,
Thrial - for all its flamboyant dispersion of vivyfying power and its richly
fertile crop of children planets - was an orphan."
The physics is all wrong. Travel times in the Culture galaxy can be weeks
or many months and a million light years is a huge distance in comparison.
> I started to form this impression about halfway through the book and
> the introduction of the android as a character just made it stronger
> - with that attitude the book did not seem so bleak to me, although
> the abrupt ending was a slight shock.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Mar 07, 2004 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 1:37 am
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Edward" <edwardthornton.RemoveThis@btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<c2isjt$gho$1@titan.btinternet.com>...
> Jason M wrote:
[snip original post]
> I agree that it calls out for a sequel but Oh dear me no, its nothing to do
> with the Culture. I think that is ruled out in Chapter 21. In the Orbit
> edition it is bottom of page 402 and top of page 403: " For a distance that
> was never less than a million light years in any direction around it,
> Thrial - for all its flamboyant dispersion of vivyfying power and its richly
> fertile crop of children planets - was an orphan."
> The physics is all wrong. Travel times in the Culture galaxy can be weeks
> or many months and a million light years is a huge distance in comparison.
I had noted that, but not really thought through the scale involved - it does
pretty much rule out AaDB having anything to do with the Culture.
Speaking of the Orbit edition of the book... Something that I've seen mentioned,
but never really addressed, is why IMB SF is not often released in the US. I have
to order all my books from used stores or overseas, and the Orbit verions
all have 'NOT FOR SALE IN THE USA' on the back. Any idea why this is? There is
a market for good space opera in the US and I'd think a US or UK publisher would
love to have the chance to sell PoG or UoW in a new market.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jul 25, 2003 Posts: 55
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:07 am
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Edward" <edwardthornton DeleteThis @btinternet.com> wrote in news:c2isjt$gho$1
@titan.btinternet.com:
> I agree that it calls out for a sequel
There is one. Somewhere. A short continuation on a website somewhere. I
was pointed to it when I posted much the same message a year or two back.
If only I could remember where...
--
Adrian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jul 24, 2003 Posts: 36
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 2:32 am
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Adrian Tupper wrote:
> "Edward" <edwardthornton.RemoveThis@btinternet.com> wrote in news:c2isjt$gho$1
> @titan.btinternet.com:
>
>> I agree that it calls out for a sequel
>
> There is one. Somewhere. A short continuation on a website
> somewhere. I was pointed to it when I posted much the same message a
> year or two back. If only I could remember where...
sit down somewhere quiet, take a deep breath and hold it till you remember.
may concentrate the mind  <!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jul 27, 2003 Posts: 67
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:10 am
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On 8 Mar 2004 19:39:24 -0800, yataa RemoveThis @hotmail.com (Jason M) wrote:
>"Edward" <edwardthornton RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote in message news:<c2isjt$gho$1@titan.btinternet.com>...
>> Jason M wrote:
>
>[snip original post]
>
>> I agree that it calls out for a sequel but Oh dear me no, its nothing to do
>> with the Culture. I think that is ruled out in Chapter 21. In the Orbit
>> edition it is bottom of page 402 and top of page 403: " For a distance that
>> was never less than a million light years in any direction around it,
>> Thrial - for all its flamboyant dispersion of vivyfying power and its richly
>> fertile crop of children planets - was an orphan."
>> The physics is all wrong. Travel times in the Culture galaxy can be weeks
>> or many months and a million light years is a huge distance in comparison.
>
>I had noted that, but not really thought through the scale involved - it does
>pretty much rule out AaDB having anything to do with the Culture.
>
>Speaking of the Orbit edition of the book... Something that I've seen mentioned,
>but never really addressed, is why IMB SF is not often released in the US. I have
>to order all my books from used stores or overseas, and the Orbit verions
>all have 'NOT FOR SALE IN THE USA' on the back. Any idea why this is? There is
>a market for good space opera in the US and I'd think a US or UK publisher would
>love to have the chance to sell PoG or UoW in a new market.
That is fairly usual for books of all kinds. Contracts for the
publication of English-language books, particularly paperbacks,
usually deal with rights in North America only, or in the rest of the
world. More often than not, authors end up dealing with two different
publishers. So a book can be in print in one market and out of print
in the other. I think all the IMB titles have been published in the
USA at some time, but I may be wrong.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Mar 09, 2004 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 6:43 pm
Post subject: US/UK Banks Editions (was Re: Against a Dark Background) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Don Aitken <don-aitken.RemoveThis@freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 8 Mar 2004 19:39:24 -0800, yataa.RemoveThis@hotmail.com (Jason M) wrote:
>
> >Speaking of the Orbit edition of the book... Something that I've seen mentioned,
> >but never really addressed, is why IMB SF is not often released in the US. I have
> >to order all my books from used stores or overseas, and the Orbit verions
> >all have 'NOT FOR SALE IN THE USA' on the back. Any idea why this is? There is
> >a market for good space opera in the US and I'd think a US or UK publisher would
> >love to have the chance to sell PoG or UoW in a new market.
>
> That is fairly usual for books of all kinds. Contracts for the
> publication of English-language books, particularly paperbacks,
> usually deal with rights in North America only, or in the rest of the
> world. More often than not, authors end up dealing with two different
> publishers. So a book can be in print in one market and out of print
> in the other. I think all the IMB titles have been published in the
> USA at some time, but I may be wrong.
Yeah, all the IMBs have been, though I believe not quite all of the
IBs.
_Player of Games_ might possibly still be available, actually -- it
and _The Bridge_ had been OOP for a while in the US but Harper brought
them back a couple years ago. The ones which are harder to find now
are _Consider Phlebas_, _Use of Weapons_, and _Against a Dark
Background_, which had MMPBs from Bantam but have been OOP in the US
for years now.
--
Scott C. Beeler scottbeeler.RemoveThis@home.com<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 37
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:09 pm
Post subject: Re: US/UK Banks Editions (was Re: Against a Dark Background) [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Scott Beeler" <scottbeeler DeleteThis @cox.net> wrote:
> Don Aitken <don-aitken DeleteThis @freeuk.com> wrote:
> > in the other. I think all the IMB titles have been published in the
> > USA at some time, but I may be wrong.
>
> Yeah, all the IMBs have been, though I believe not quite all of the
> IBs.
>
I agree that it's harder to find his fiction than his science fiction. I
still don't think that Dead Air (and Raw Spirit) have been published in the
U.S.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 37
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 7:22 pm
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Edward" <edwardthornton.DeleteThis@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Jason M wrote:
> > Warning: Contains spoilers of the book Against a Dark Background
> > throughout
[...]
> > The abrupt ending may have just been a stylistic tribute to the old
> > serials, but it seems like this book may have actually been intended
> > to have a sequel.
>
> I agree that it calls out for a sequel but Oh dear me no, its nothing to
do
> with the Culture.
I don't agree that it calls out for a sequel. Sequels are generally a sign
of hack authorship, and Banks generally avoids them. From Merriam-Webster:
"the next installment (as of a speech or story); especially : a literary or
cinematic work continuing the course of a story begun in a preceding one".
Banks has few characters that appear in more than one book, much less books
that continue a story from one book to another.
On the assumption that what is meant is not that there should be another
book picking up the story of Sharrow and Feril, but another set in the
"Golter Universe", I still disagree. I don't think it is a particularly
interesting universe. It is not only closed, it is also dominated by
science that is indistinguishable from magic; both relics of the way that
AaDB was set up with a structure that is firmly in the subgenre of heroic
fantasy. I am fully confident in Banks' ability to come up with an as good
or better different universe for his next SF book.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Mar 09, 2004 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Mar 09, 2004 10:26 pm
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Edward" <edwardthornton DeleteThis @btinternet.com> writes:
> Jason M wrote:
> > Warning: Contains spoilers of the book Against a Dark Background
> > throughout
> >
>
> I agree that it calls out for a sequel but Oh dear me no, its nothing to do
> with the Culture. I think that is ruled out in Chapter 21. In the Orbit
> edition it is bottom of page 402 and top of page 403: " For a distance that
> was never less than a million light years in any direction around it,
> Thrial - for all its flamboyant dispersion of vivyfying power and its richly
> fertile crop of children planets - was an orphan."
> The physics is all wrong. Travel times in the Culture galaxy can be weeks
> or many months and a million light years is a huge distance in comparison.
>
I've wondered about the possible Culture connections -
Intergalactic travel is hinted at - at the end of Excession, when Sleeper
Service is headed off, Amorphia mentions that it changed its mind
about going to Andromeda, though their final destination (Leo II)
would "take rather a long time".
The Lazy Guns strike me as Culture level technology - it should be
simple to achieve the functionality of a Lazy Gun using displacement
capability. And the "sense of humor" that the guns display is a
definite attribute of Culture drones and minds.
--
Real email address? Rule 1.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jul 24, 2003 Posts: 36
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 1:32 am
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Richard Puchalsky wrote:
> "Edward" <edwardthornton.DeleteThis@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Jason M wrote:
>>> Warning: Contains spoilers of the book Against a Dark Background
>>> throughout
> [...]
>>> The abrupt ending may have just been a stylistic tribute to the old
>>> serials, but it seems like this book may have actually been intended
>>> to have a sequel.
>>
>> I agree that it calls out for a sequel but Oh dear me no, its
>> nothing to do with the Culture.
>
> I don't agree that it calls out for a sequel. Sequels are generally
> a sign of hack authorship, and Banks generally avoids them. From
> Merriam-Webster: "the next installment (as of a speech or story);
> especially : a literary or cinematic work continuing the course of a
> story begun in a preceding one". Banks has few characters that appear
> in more than one book, much less books that continue a story from one
> book to another.
I thought that Claudius The God was a worthy sequel to I Claudius.
And I thought that Banco was a worthy sequel to Papillon.
Neither of these authors was a hack.
Asimov and Clarke are a different story though.
>
> On the assumption that what is meant is not that there should be
> another book picking up the story of Sharrow and Feril, but another
> set in the "Golter Universe", I still disagree. I don't think it is
> a particularly interesting universe. It is not only closed, it is
> also dominated by science that is indistinguishable from magic; both
> relics of the way that AaDB was set up with a structure that is
> firmly in the subgenre of heroic fantasy. I am fully confident in
> Banks' ability to come up with an as good or better different
> universe for his next SF book.
No, I said that I think it calls out for a sequel. However, I do not think
that there will be one and that is mainly because it would be a first for
IMB. Perhaps writing a sequel would not be very interesting for him when
there are other themes to explore.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Mar 09, 2004 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 6:56 am
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Edward" <edwardthornton DeleteThis @btinternet.com> writes:
> Richard Puchalsky wrote:
> > "Edward" <edwardthornton DeleteThis @btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Jason M wrote:
> >>> Warning: Contains spoilers of the book Against a Dark Background
>
> No, I said that I think it calls out for a sequel. However, I do not think
> that there will be one and that is mainly because it would be a first for
> IMB. Perhaps writing a sequel would not be very interesting for him when
> there are other themes to explore.
>
I've always thought it needs a _prequel_
The last lazy gun is destroyed. End of story.
But there are so many questions and threads that preceed this book: to
name a few, the creation of the Guns, their dispersal, Halo, the
destruction of the moons of Phrastesis.
Then the history of the Duke, the conflict with the Huhsz, the
sequestering of the Gun and all the other materiel in the embargoed
zones...
the possibilities are endless.
--
Real email address? Rule 1.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 37
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Coriander Lexus" <solatic DeleteThis @yahoo.poofters.com> wrote:
> The Lazy Guns strike me as Culture level technology - it should be
> simple to achieve the functionality of a Lazy Gun using displacement
> capability. And the "sense of humor" that the guns display is a
> definite attribute of Culture drones and minds.
Displacement wouldn't work, because displacement grabs an item from
somewhere else. The Lazy Guns routinely use large electrodes, bullets, etc.
when killing people-sized entities, and if they were displacing them from
elsewhere in the Golter system, surely people would have noticed by now,
given the level of interest in how the Guns do what they do. The Lazy Guns
appear to create these objects at will, after which they sort of fade away.
The sense of humor bit isn't really Cultural either. A Culture weapon could
destroy itself when probed without choosing to have a nuclear bomb sized
blast, and if it detected that it was in a populated city, presumably it
would decide not to do so. Not to mention that the Lazy Guns always kill
when directed to, even if they do so in a "humorous" way -- that seems the
antithesis of a Culture ethic.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jun 30, 2003 Posts: 37
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2004 8:32 pm
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Edward" <edwardthornton DeleteThis @btinternet.com> wrote:
> Richard Puchalsky wrote:
> > "Edward" <edwardthornton DeleteThis @btinternet.com> wrote:
> >> Jason M wrote:
> >>> Warning: Contains spoilers of the book Against a Dark Background
> >>> throughout
> > [...]
> >>> The abrupt ending may have just been a stylistic tribute to the old
> >>> serials, but it seems like this book may have actually been intended
> >>> to have a sequel.
> >>
> >> I agree that it calls out for a sequel but Oh dear me no, its
> >> nothing to do with the Culture.
> >
> > I don't agree that it calls out for a sequel. Sequels are generally
> > a sign of hack authorship, and Banks generally avoids them. From
> > Merriam-Webster: "the next installment (as of a speech or story);
> > especially : a literary or cinematic work continuing the course of a
> > story begun in a preceding one". Banks has few characters that appear
> > in more than one book, much less books that continue a story from one
> > book to another.
>
> I thought that Claudius The God was a worthy sequel to I Claudius.
> And I thought that Banco was a worthy sequel to Papillon.
> Neither of these authors was a hack.
Right -- I don't want to claim that *every* author who writes sequels is a
hack, which is why I put in "generally".
>
> Asimov and Clarke are a different story though.
>
> >
> > On the assumption that what is meant is not that there should be
> > another book picking up the story of Sharrow and Feril, but another
> > set in the "Golter Universe", I still disagree. I don't think it is
> > a particularly interesting universe. It is not only closed, it is
> > also dominated by science that is indistinguishable from magic; both
> > relics of the way that AaDB was set up with a structure that is
> > firmly in the subgenre of heroic fantasy. I am fully confident in
> > Banks' ability to come up with an as good or better different
> > universe for his next SF book.
>
> No, I said that I think it calls out for a sequel. However, I do not
think
> that there will be one and that is mainly because it would be a first for
> IMB. Perhaps writing a sequel would not be very interesting for him when
> there are other themes to explore.
You really think it calls out for a sequel in the sense of a direct
continuation of the story? I don't see it. The Ring has been tossed into
Mount Doom, Sauron has been destroyed, and the Fellowship (except for
Sharrow) is all dead. What's left to write about?<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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Since: Jul 25, 2003 Posts: 55
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Mar 11, 2004 1:43 am
Post subject: Re: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Richard Puchalsky" <rpuchalsky.DeleteThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:uiI3c.95685$aH3.2911559@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:
> "Edward" <edwardthornton.DeleteThis@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> Richard Puchalsky wrote:
>> > "Edward" <edwardthornton.DeleteThis@btinternet.com> wrote:
>> >> Jason M wrote:
>> >>> Warning: Contains spoilers of the book Against a Dark Background
>> >>> throughout
>> > [...]
>> >>> The abrupt ending may have just been a stylistic tribute to the
>> >>> old serials, but it seems like this book may have actually been
>> >>> intended to have a sequel.
>> >>
>> >> I agree that it calls out for a sequel but Oh dear me no, its
>> >> nothing to do with the Culture.
>> >
>> > I don't agree that it calls out for a sequel. Sequels are
>> > generally a sign of hack authorship, and Banks generally avoids
>> > them. From Merriam-Webster: "the next installment (as of a speech
>> > or story); especially : a literary or cinematic work continuing the
>> > course of a story begun in a preceding one". Banks has few
>> > characters that appear in more than one book, much less books that
>> > continue a story from one book to another.
>>
>> I thought that Claudius The God was a worthy sequel to I Claudius.
>> And I thought that Banco was a worthy sequel to Papillon.
>> Neither of these authors was a hack.
>
> Right -- I don't want to claim that *every* author who writes sequels
> is a hack, which is why I put in "generally".
>
>>
>> Asimov and Clarke are a different story though.
>>
>> >
>> > On the assumption that what is meant is not that there should be
>> > another book picking up the story of Sharrow and Feril, but another
>> > set in the "Golter Universe", I still disagree. I don't think it
>> > is a particularly interesting universe. It is not only closed, it
>> > is also dominated by science that is indistinguishable from magic;
>> > both relics of the way that AaDB was set up with a structure that
>> > is firmly in the subgenre of heroic fantasy. I am fully confident
>> > in Banks' ability to come up with an as good or better different
>> > universe for his next SF book.
>>
>> No, I said that I think it calls out for a sequel. However, I do not
> think
>> that there will be one and that is mainly because it would be a first
>> for IMB. Perhaps writing a sequel would not be very interesting for
>> him when there are other themes to explore.
>
> You really think it calls out for a sequel in the sense of a direct
> continuation of the story? I don't see it. The Ring has been tossed
> into Mount Doom, Sauron has been destroyed, and the Fellowship (except
> for Sharrow) is all dead. What's left to write about?
>
>
>
The Android.
--
Adrian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ --> >> Stay informed about: Against a Dark Background [SPOILERS] |
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