Lewis and Demons

On Sun, 23 May 2004 10:22:13 GMT, m.TakeThisOut@mooreeffoc.com wrote:

 >Have you read SCREWTAPE LETTERS?

That is why I was asking.


 >On Sun, 23 May 2004 09:04:22 GMT, steven.TakeThisOut@bowness.demon.co.uk (Steven
 > Carr) wrote:

  >>Did C.S.Lewis believe that supernatural demons existed with the power
  >>to attack our rational thinking and also the motivation to attack our
  >>rational thoughts?

 >Are you distinguishing 'rational thinking' from 'rational thoughts'
 >here?

No. Did Lews believe both or either could be attacked by demons, if
any such demons existed?

Or did he believe that demons might exist, but that our thinking
processes or senses , could never be affected by their machinations?

Steven Carr
steven.TakeThisOut@bowness.demon.co.uk
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"Steven Carr" <steven.RemoveThis@bowness.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:40b068e9.1055076@news.demon.co.uk...

 > Did C.S.Lewis believe that supernatural demons existed with the power
 > to attack our rational thinking and also the motivation to attack our
 > rational thoughts?

I think so. Although _The Screwtape Letters_ is in fictional form, it seems
clear from the Foreword, and also from the Foreword to _Screwtape Proposes a
Toast_, that it reflects his view of how the Devil and his demons operate, in
principle though quite likely not in detail.

This is of course a perfectly orthodox Christian view, held by the Church
throughout the centuries, and CSL undoubtedly was (and was keen to be) a
perfectly orthodox Christian with a high view of the Church.

He was just rather better at explaining his beliefs than most of us

<wave> to Steven - I have seen a number of your posts in
uk.religion.christian, though I don't post there myself very often.

Nicholas.
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Yes. It ties in with stuff in MIRACLES about rational thought being
hampered by the material brain and body. In SCREWTAPE see the story
about an atheist reading in the British Museum iirc having a pro-theist
thought, then QFM "I struck at the part of him most under our control,
by suggesting that it was about time for lunch. The /guardian angel/
suggested that this thought was more important than lunch." But the body
prevailed, and as the atheist left the building he reverted to his
habitual thoughts also.


On Sun, 23 May 2004 17:19:02 +0100, "Nicholas Young" <from RemoveThis @spam.trap>
wrote:

 >"Steven Carr" <steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
 >news:40b068e9.1055076@news.demon.co.uk...
 >
  >> Did C.S.Lewis believe that supernatural demons existed with the power
  >> to attack our rational thinking and also the motivation to attack our
  >> rational thoughts?

Screwtape sure believed it.

Cheers,
Mary
--------------


 >I think so. Although _The Screwtape Letters_ is in fictional form, it seems
 >clear from the Foreword, and also from the Foreword to _Screwtape Proposes a
 >Toast_, that it reflects his view of how the Devil and his demons operate, in
 >principle though quite likely not in detail.
 >
 >This is of course a perfectly orthodox Christian view, held by the Church
 >throughout the centuries, and CSL undoubtedly was (and was keen to be) a
 >perfectly orthodox Christian with a high view of the Church.
 >
 >He was just rather better at explaining his beliefs than most of us
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Sun, 23 May 2004 17:23:00 GMT, m DeleteThis @mooreeffoc.com wrote:

 >Yes. It ties in with stuff in MIRACLES about rational thought being
 >hampered by the material brain and body. In SCREWTAPE see the story
 >about an atheist reading in the British Museum iirc having a pro-theist
 >thought, then QFM "I struck at the part of him most under our control,
 >by suggesting that it was about time for lunch. The /guardian angel/
 >suggested that this thought was more important than lunch." But the body
 >prevailed, and as the atheist left the building he reverted to his
 >habitual thoughts also.

So how did Lewis think his thoughts were rational and justified, when
they could have been attacked by malicious demons?

Or are Christians immune to demonic attack?

Steven Carr
steven DeleteThis @bowness.demon.co.uk
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Steven Carr <steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >Did C.S.Lewis believe that supernatural demons existed with the power
 >to attack our rational thinking and also the motivation to attack our
 >rational thoughts?
 >Steven Carr
 >steven@bowness.demon.co.uk
 >http://www.bowness.demon.co.uk/

Steven, are you tormented? I see you have posted similar questions
elsewhere. . .

AIUI, CSL was very cautious about demons/demonology, although orthodox
in that, as Jesus believed in them, he accepted their existence; but
IMHO his masterpiece "The Screwtape Letters" showed how he understood
them to operate.

Blessings

Mike
[The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
--
Michael J Davis
<><
Some newsgroup contributors appear to have confused
the meaning of "discussion" with "digression".
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On Sun, 23 May 2004 18:45:30 GMT, steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk (Steven
Carr) wrote:

 >On Sun, 23 May 2004 17:23:00 GMT, m RemoveThis @mooreeffoc.com wrote:
 >
  >>Yes. It ties in with stuff in MIRACLES about rational thought being
  >>hampered by the material brain and body. In SCREWTAPE see the story
  >>about an atheist reading in the British Museum iirc having a pro-theist
  >>thought, then QFM "I struck at the part of him most under our control,
  >>by suggesting that it was about time for lunch. The /guardian angel/
  >>suggested that this thought was more important than lunch." But the body
  >>prevailed, and as the atheist left the building he reverted to his
  >>habitual thoughts also.
 >
 >So how did Lewis think his thoughts were rational and justified, when
 >they could have been attacked by malicious demons?

Everyone's thoughts are a mix, some bits of my thought are more
rational than other bits.


 >Or are Christians immune to demonic attack?

Not immune, but perhaps with a little extra protection. However imo
meditation and yoga and such mental training are better protection yet.


Mary<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Moralists traditionally warn people about The World, The Flesh and The
Devil. The Devil I will leave strictly alone. The association between
him and myself in the public mind has already gone further than I would
wish. In some quarters it has reached the point of confusion, if not
identification."

(The Inner Ring -- paraphrased from memory.)


Just as a tiny word of caution; we need to be careful of treating
"Screwtape" as a treatise on how Lewis actually believed the Devil
operated. He's primarily using them as a literary device to make a moral
tract palatable and even entertaining. In the British Museum passage,
Lewis is saying something like "More people turn away from Christianity
due to being distracted by something trivial than by thinking up a
really serious objection to it." That point is made more vividly my
imagining a Tempter Tempting the "patient" to give up his work and go
and have lunch.
If you'd have asked Lewis is he really believed that Devils tempted us
in that way, or if it was just that our broken human natures made it
hard for us to attend to the really important things for very long, I
think that he would have said that it didn't matter. (He warns us at the
beginning of "Great Divorce" that he does not intend to encourage us to
speculate about what the literal characteristic of the afterlife: might
he not have said the same thing about the Screwtape?)

That said, he definitely did believe in the literal existence of demons,
but said that it was "one of his opinions, not one of his beliefs" --
i.e a non-essential element in his faith.

Interestingly, in "Grief Observed", when he is agonising about the
problems of suffering in the world, he talks almost exclusively about
the possible reasons why a perfectly good being allows terrible things
to happen -- or even causes them. The question is always "If God did
such terrible things to my wife, can I carry on believing in him". The
idea that suffering might be caused by the devil never crops up.
--
Andrew Rilstone e-mail: type my surname before the "@"
************************************************************************
'Tis the time's plague when madmen lead the blind
************************************************************************
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On Sun, 23 May 2004 20:08:43 +0100, Andrew Rilstone
<spam.TakeThisOut@aslan.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 >Interestingly, in "Grief Observed", when he is agonising about the
 >problems of suffering in the world, he talks almost exclusively about
 >the possible reasons why a perfectly good being allows terrible things
 >to happen -- or even causes them. The question is always "If God did
 >such terrible things to my wife, can I carry on believing in him". The
 >idea that suffering might be caused by the devil never crops up.

Lewis' deepest book.
Rightly, he gets to the heart of the matter here. If God created this
world, then He is as responsible for all the bad that happens as well
as all the good.

James<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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 >J.S.T. spamfree.TakeThisOut@spamfree.com

 > If God created this
 >world, then He is as responsible for all the bad that happens as well
 >as all the good.

Consider, if the act he performed that permitted evil was to provide us with
spirits (created in His image) which gives us the power to make choices, then
we share in the act of creation, it continues. He could have made beings
incapable of evil, but that might preclude freely given love as well. God did
not have to create evil, just beings that could, He did not have to create
them, but wanted too. Perhaps He values the ones that choose Him so highly that
He is willing to suffer the rest.


Daryl
And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him.
He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.
(Leonard Cohen)
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On 24 May 2004 05:05:54 GMT, darylgene DeleteThis @aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:

 >Perhaps He values the ones that choose Him so highly that
 >He is willing to suffer the rest.
 >
Perhaps. But He is still as responsible for all the evil that takes
place in this created world as for the good.

James<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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 >m@mooreeffoc.com writes:

 >(Steven
 >Carr) wrote:

 >Everyone's thoughts are a mix, some bits of my thought are more
 >rational than other bits.

Mine too

  >>Or are Christians immune to demonic attack?

 >Not immune, but perhaps with a little extra protection. However imo
 >meditation and yoga and such mental training are better protection yet.

"My sheep know my voice," you get a feel for these things, learn to pick out
who's voice is speaking. It's not an easy thing though, scripture helps, the
Holy Spirit helps but you still get it wrong sometimes. You can still
substitute your desires (or the Enemy's) for His. You have to remember that you
can get it wrong, that if "it isn't from Love, it isn't from God" or you can
get on a Jim Jones or David Koresh thing.

As to meditation and yoga, they can be useful, I ,of course, would suggest
prayer is better yet.


Daryl
And when He knew for certain, only drowning men could see Him.
He said all men shall be sailors then, until the sea shall free them.
(Leonard Cohen)
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On Sun, 23 May 2004 20:08:43 +0100, Andrew Rilstone
<spam.DeleteThis@aslan.demon.co.uk> wrote:

<skip>

 >That said, he definitely did believe in the literal existence of demons,
 >but said that it was "one of his opinions, not one of his beliefs" --
 >i.e a non-essential element in his faith.

He definitely believed in something, but it was not a belief?

Confirms my opinion that Lewis was a sophist, who did nothing but play
word-games.

By 'non-essential element', do you mean he would deny it if it was
opportunistic for him to do so?

Still, at least it blows his argument against materialism out of the
water, as he cannot justify the rationality of human thought, if there
are supernatural demons who can attack our senses.

Meanwhile, a purely physical thing like a NAND gate happily obeys
logical rules perfectly and infallibly.....

Steven Carr
steven.DeleteThis@bowness.demon.co.uk
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On 24 May 2004 05:05:54 GMT, darylgene RemoveThis @aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:

  >>J.S.T. spamfree RemoveThis @spamfree.com
 >
  >> If God created this
  >>world, then He is as responsible for all the bad that happens as well
  >>as all the good.
 >
 >Consider, if the act he performed that permitted evil was to provide us with
 >spirits (created in His image) which gives us the power to make choices, then
 >we share in the act of creation, it continues. He could have made beings
 >incapable of evil, but that might preclude freely given love as well.

As a Christian ,Lewis would fight to the dying breath to defend the
belief that God has created angels like Gabriel and Michael who had
free will and who had (unlike Satan) *never* chosen evil.

If Christians proclaim that God has actually created freewilled beings
who have never chosen evil, why do they also deny that God can create
freewilled beings that never choose evil?


So why *did* God create Satan, when God knew perfectly well how to
create angels that never rebelled.

God's foreknowledge meant he knew the free will actions of Gabriel and
Michael and infallibly knew they would never commit evil.

So why create Satan in addition, knowing in advance that Satan would
choose evil?

<skip>

Steven Carr
steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk
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