Lewis and Demons

Andrew Rilstone <spam.DeleteThis@aslan.demon.co.uk> observed
 >"Moralists traditionally warn people about The World, The Flesh and The
 >Devil. The Devil I will leave strictly alone. The association between
 >him and myself in the public mind has already gone further than I would
 >wish. In some quarters it has reached the point of confusion, if not
 >identification."
 >
 >(The Inner Ring -- paraphrased from memory.)

Thanks for that reminder, I'd forgotten that one!

 >Just as a tiny word of caution; we need to be careful of treating
 >"Screwtape" as a treatise on how Lewis actually believed the Devil
 >operated.

Indeed.

[snip]

 >Interestingly, in "Grief Observed", when he is agonising about the
 >problems of suffering in the world, he talks almost exclusively about
 >the possible reasons why a perfectly good being allows terrible things
 >to happen -- or even causes them. The question is always "If God did
 >such terrible things to my wife, can I carry on believing in him". The
 >idea that suffering might be caused by the devil never crops up.

ISTR that in TSL the suggestion that 'bad things' are caused by demons
is fairly well demolished in the words of the devils themselves. It is
our feelings and reactions to them that the demons manipulate. It's
that, at least, I would suggest matches CSL's belief. If not, it
certainly matches mine!

Mike

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Steven Carr <steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >On 24 May 2004 05:05:54 GMT, darylgene RemoveThis @aol.comnopax (Daryl) wrote:
 >
   >>>J.S.T. spamfree RemoveThis @spamfree.com
  >>
   >>> If God created this
   >>>world, then He is as responsible for all the bad that happens as well
   >>>as all the good.
  >>
  >>Consider, if the act he performed that permitted evil was to provide us with
  >>spirits (created in His image) which gives us the power to make choices, then
  >>we share in the act of creation, it continues. He could have made beings
  >>incapable of evil, but that might preclude freely given love as well.
 >
 >As a Christian ,Lewis would fight to the dying breath to defend the
 >belief that God has created angels like Gabriel and Michael who had
 >free will and who had (unlike Satan) *never* chosen evil.
 >
 >If Christians proclaim that God has actually created freewilled beings
 >who have never chosen evil, why do they also deny that God can create
 >freewilled beings that never choose evil?
 >
Steven, I don't get your point. What do you think freewill means? (Hint
- the word *free*)

 >So why *did* God create Satan, when God knew perfectly well how to
 >create angels that never rebelled.
 >
 >God's foreknowledge meant he knew the free will actions of Gabriel and
 >Michael and infallibly knew they would never commit evil.

Here you are making the classical confusion between foreknowledge and
predestination. (We have argued about this before, I think.)
 >
 >So why create Satan in addition, knowing in advance that Satan would
 >choose evil?

Because the one characteristic of God is that He cannot 'intend' - God
is all 'act' (and that act is love). God doesn't - in theologian's
understandings - mull over the possible outcomes and then decide which
He will do. He, being perfect (or setting the rules, if you must),
creates that which has to be created, and gives them the freedom (as a
condition of love) to choose.

That is freewill. Now we know nothing about the decision of the angels,
but we can understand that freewill is an essential part of their
response to the Creator, just as it is with us.

Blessings

Mike
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Steven Carr <steven DeleteThis @bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >
 >Still, at least it blows his argument against materialism out of the
 >water, as he cannot justify the rationality of human thought, if there
 >are supernatural demons who can attack our senses.

I think you are confusing rationality with feelings.

Mike
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Steven Carr <steven.DeleteThis@bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >On Sun, 23 May 2004 19:48:12 +0100, Michael J Davis
 ><?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:
 >
  >>Steven Carr <steven.DeleteThis@bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
   >>>Did C.S.Lewis believe that supernatural demons existed with the power
   >>>to attack our rational thinking and also the motivation to attack our
   >>>rational thoughts?
 >
 >
  >>Steven, are you tormented? I see you have posted similar questions
  >>elsewhere. . .
 >
 >And got no sensible answers from you, or anybody else........
 >
  >>AIUI, CSL was very cautious about demons/demonology, although orthodox
  >>in that, as Jesus believed in them, he accepted their existence; but
  >>IMHO his masterpiece "The Screwtape Letters" showed how he understood
  >>them to operate.
 >
 >And how did he justify that knowledge when demons are deceptive and
 >would deceive him about how they operate?

Good question. Because a man of God will understand that God will also
provide the gifts of wisdom and discernment of spirits. In Vanuken's
book "A Severe Mercy", he tells of Lewis' parable about the dog who
allowed his master's voice to become so distant because he went off
chasing rabbits, that he was no longer able to respond to it.

Those who practice listening to their Master's voice, get used to the
sound of it and are not misled by others.

 >(Perhaps God's omniscience rubbed off on to Lewis. Lewis did have an
 >amazing knowledge about demons for such a pious man)

I think you underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit in influencing
Lewis writing. (Which CSL freely accepted, btw!)

Mike
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:04:28 +0100, Michael J Davis
<?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 >Daryl <darylgene DeleteThis @aol.comnopax> observed

   >>>Not immune, but perhaps with a little extra protection. However imo
   >>>meditation and yoga and such mental training are better protection yet.

  >>"My sheep know my voice," you get a feel for these things, learn to pick out
  >>who's voice is speaking. It's not an easy thing though, scripture helps, the
  >>Holy Spirit helps but you still get it wrong sometimes. You can still
  >>substitute your desires (or the Enemy's) for His. You have to remember that you
  >>can get it wrong, that if "it isn't from Love, it isn't from God" or you can
  >>get on a Jim Jones or David Koresh thing.

  >>As to meditation and yoga, they can be useful, I ,of course, would suggest
  >>prayer is better yet.
 >
 >Well said, Daryl.

How can you 'get it wrong', when Lewis said that God created a
rational universe, and created us as rational beings, able to trust
our reasoning?

So how can mistakes ever happen when God Himself guarantees our
rationality?


Steven Carr
steven DeleteThis @bowness.demon.co.uk
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:20:28 +0100, Michael J Davis
<?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 >Steven Carr <steven.DeleteThis@bowness.demon.co.uk> observed

  >>As a Christian ,Lewis would fight to the dying breath to defend the
  >>belief that God has created angels like Gabriel and Michael who had
  >>free will and who had (unlike Satan) *never* chosen evil.

  >>If Christians proclaim that God has actually created freewilled beings
  >>who have never chosen evil, why do they also deny that God can create
  >>freewilled beings that never choose evil?

 >Steven, I don't get your point. What do you think freewill means? (Hint
 >- the word *free*)

Are you claiming God cannot create beings with free will who He knows
in advance will never choose evil?

Christian dogma is that He has done so.


  >>So why *did* God create Satan, when God knew perfectly well how to
  >>create angels that never rebelled.

  >>God's foreknowledge meant he knew the free will actions of Gabriel and
  >>Michael and infallibly knew they would never commit evil.

 >Here you are making the classical confusion between foreknowledge and
 >predestination. (We have argued about this before, I think.)

No, I'm not. I said nothing about predestination. Not one thing!

I repeated Christian dogma. God knew in advance that Gabriel and
Michael (and other angels) would never use their free will to choose
evil.

God knew in advance that Satan (and other angels) would use their free
will to choose evil.

So why did God create Satan?


  >>So why create Satan in addition, knowing in advance that Satan would
  >>choose evil?

 >Because the one characteristic of God is that He cannot 'intend' - God
 >is all 'act' (and that act is love). God doesn't - in theologian's
 >understandings - mull over the possible outcomes and then decide which
 >He will do. He, being perfect (or setting the rules, if you must),
 >creates that which has to be created, and gives them the freedom (as a
 >condition of love) to choose.

God *had* to create Satan? What garbage is that? Tell me where it says
that in the Bible?

God doesn't mull over the possible outcomes and decide what he will
do??

God doesn't think 'If I do A, millions of people will die. Better not
do A.'?????.

 >That is freewill. Now we know nothing about the decision of the angels,
 >but we can understand that freewill is an essential part of their
 >response to the Creator, just as it is with us.

So why did God create Satan?

Is God's excuse 'I had to create Satan. I was only obeying orders.
Satan had to be created I was forced to create Satan, because I am
perfect. Just ask Michael Davis, he will back me up.'????

This all seems weird to me.

Satan had to be created????


Steven Carr
steven.DeleteThis@bowness.demon.co.uk
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:21:44 +0100, Michael J Davis
<?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 >Steven Carr <steven.RemoveThis@bowness.demon.co.uk> observed

  >>Still, at least it blows his argument against materialism out of the
  >>water, as he cannot justify the rationality of human thought, if there
  >>are supernatural demons who can attack our senses.

 >I think you are confusing rationality with feelings.

I think you are confusing saying things with putting forward reasoned
arguments.

I shall repeat the question.

If supernatural demons can attack our senses, why did Lewis think it
was only naturalists who could not trust their sense?

Steven Carr
steven.RemoveThis@bowness.demon.co.uk
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:10:26 +0100, Michael J Davis
<?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:

<skip>

 >ISTR that in TSL the suggestion that 'bad things' are caused by demons
 >is fairly well demolished in the words of the devils themselves. It is
 >our feelings and reactions to them that the demons manipulate. It's
 >that, at least, I would suggest matches CSL's belief. If not, it
 >certainly matches mine!

So if demons can manipulate our reactions, why did Lewis proclaim that
we could trust our reactions because supernatural beings exist?

Had he been got at by the demons?
Steven Carr
steven.DeleteThis@bowness.demon.co.uk
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:27:07 +0100, Michael J Davis
<?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:


 >Steven Carr <steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk> observed

  >>And how did he justify that knowledge when demons are deceptive and
  >>would deceive him about how they operate?

 >Good question. Because a man of God will understand that God will also
 >provide the gifts of wisdom and discernment of spirits. In Vanuken's
 >book "A Severe Mercy", he tells of Lewis' parable about the dog who
 >allowed his master's voice to become so distant because he went off
 >chasing rabbits, that he was no longer able to respond to it.

 >Those who practice listening to their Master's voice, get used to the
 >sound of it and are not misled by others.

And how do you know that is not what the demons want you to believe?


 >I think you underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit in influencing
 >Lewis writing. (Which CSL freely accepted, btw!)

Lewis knew he was right because his invisible friend was helping him
out?

Steven Carr
steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:20:28 +0100, Michael J Davis
<?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:

 >Steven Carr <steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk> observed


  >>So why *did* God create Satan, when God knew perfectly well how to
  >>create angels that never rebelled.

  >>God's foreknowledge meant he knew the free will actions of Gabriel and
  >>Michael and infallibly knew they would never commit evil.

 >Here you are making the classical confusion between foreknowledge and
 >predestination. (We have argued about this before, I think.)

I think I see where I am getting confused.

A man lets his pit bull terrier loose in a children's playground, and
goes off to the pub, knowing full well it will savage and maul
children.

Now the man *knew* that would happen, but did he *force* the dog to
attack the particular children it did?

How could he? He was in the pub. He did not order the dog to attack
anyone.

When the police charged him, he protested that they were making the
classical confusion between foreknowledge and predestination.

<skip>


Steven Carr
steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk
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Steven Carr <steven.DeleteThis@bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:20:28 +0100, Michael J Davis
 ><?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:
 >
  >>Steven Carr <steven.DeleteThis@bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >
   >>>So why *did* God create Satan, when God knew perfectly well how to
   >>>create angels that never rebelled.
 >
   >>>God's foreknowledge meant he knew the free will actions of Gabriel and
   >>>Michael and infallibly knew they would never commit evil.
 >
  >>Here you are making the classical confusion between foreknowledge and
  >>predestination. (We have argued about this before, I think.)
 >
 >I think I see where I am getting confused.
 >
 >A man lets his pit bull terrier loose in a children's playground, and
 >goes off to the pub, knowing full well it will savage and maul
 >children.
 >
 >Now the man *knew* that would happen, but did he *force* the dog to
 >attack the particular children it did?
 >
 >How could he? He was in the pub. He did not order the dog to attack
 >anyone.
 >
 >When the police charged him, he protested that they were making the
 >classical confusion between foreknowledge and predestination.

LOL!

Steven. That is a good example of the dilemma, yes. As seen by human
eyes. Of course he didn't *force* the dog, but he wasn't offering the
dog a choice in your example.

1. Does God have foreknowledge?
I don't know. No, really!
It is Christian understanding that God is outside time, and therefore
can view all things in time as being equally present. If we are to
believe this then, when we see 'what we may call bad things' (wwmcbt)
happen, we can assume that since God knows the outcomes He has already
arranged for the ultimate result to be good. Yes, Dr Pangloss, that
could be so.

You see - using a familiar proverb - when we see eggs being broken, we
assume that the end result will be chaos. God, though, may understand
that the result is to be an omelette, and the apparent chaos is a
necessary route.

2. Does God really give his creatures freewill?
The Christian understanding is that God is love; and that love is
expressed in creativity and the wish to share His life among His[1]
creation. However, there is no such thing a coerced love. It is
essential that while God loves His creation in a totally self-giving
way, the opportunity is there for the created to respond to God's love
freely, with no coercion. We call that opportunity 'free-will'. It is
our freedom to choose how to behave, to relate to those around us, and
to respond and relate to God.

Without that there is no true love. Our (Christian) claim to be made in
the image of God is precisely in our ability to offer self-giving love.

So we have a free choice.

3. So your question is, 'why doesn't God filter out the bad choices
using His foreknowledge?'

My reply to that is manifold:-
a) Because His foreknowledge is so perfect that He knows that the end
result is the best possible one,

b) Because our own individual choices are meaningless unless made in
this imperfect world,

c) Because it this through the testing and the present evil that the
whole refinement of creation takes place. (Oh happy fault!)

d) Perhaps at the end of time Satan will relent - after all - as part of
creation God still loves it.

and so on.

4. Now you will accuse me of trivialising the present pains and
sufferings of mankind. I am not. If we all loved as we should love there
would be much less pain and suffering. But I in turn accuse you of
trivialising the love that God really has.

We both know that it cannot be 'proved', we must wait until the end of
time. But trust in God (faith, if you prefer) is one of the areas in
which we are invited to exercise freewill. I find as I grow older, that
I am living more and more in the presence of God. But you will argue
that that is subjective. So be it.

Mike

[1] The Trinitarian nature of God is such that I really ought to be
using a plural pronoun here - 'Their' as the relationship within God
Their-self is one of self-giving love.
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Steven Carr <steven RemoveThis @bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:10:26 +0100, Michael J Davis
 ><?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:
 >
 ><skip>
 >
  >>ISTR that in TSL the suggestion that 'bad things' are caused by demons
  >>is fairly well demolished in the words of the devils themselves. It is
  >>our feelings and reactions to them that the demons manipulate. It's
  >>that, at least, I would suggest matches CSL's belief. If not, it
  >>certainly matches mine!
 >
 >So if demons can manipulate our reactions, why did Lewis proclaim that
 >we could trust our reactions because supernatural beings exist?

Please quote c&v for that one, Steven.

 >Had he been got at by the demons?

Being 'got at' is the norm for Christians, if the devil isn't getting at
you, it's because you are floating downstream nicely in his boat.

Mike
[The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
--
Michael J Davis
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the meaning of "discussion" with "digression".
<><<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Steven Carr <steven.TakeThisOut@bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >On Mon, 24 May 2004 10:27:07 +0100, Michael J Davis
 ><?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote:
 >
  >>Steven Carr <steven.TakeThisOut@bowness.demon.co.uk> observed
 >
   >>>And how did he justify that knowledge when demons are deceptive and
   >>>would deceive him about how they operate?
 >
  >>Good question. Because a man of God will understand that God will also
  >>provide the gifts of wisdom and discernment of spirits. In Vanuken's
  >>book "A Severe Mercy", he tells of Lewis' parable about the dog who
  >>allowed his master's voice to become so distant because he went off
  >>chasing rabbits, that he was no longer able to respond to it.
 >
  >>Those who practice listening to their Master's voice, get used to the
  >>sound of it and are not misled by others.
 >
 >And how do you know that is not what the demons want you to believe?
 >
  >>I think you underestimate the power of the Holy Spirit in influencing
  >>Lewis writing. (Which CSL freely accepted, btw!)
 >
 >Lewis knew he was right because his invisible friend was helping him
 >out?

How do you know anything, Steven? I would argue that we have been given
a rational mind which needs to be informed about heavenly things.
Deliberately to remain ignorant is to be culpable.

Mike
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what matters is that we address God as "You"'
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