Double signing?

"John A. Stovall" wrote...
 > I'm going to be at a history symposium in November and the rarest
 > works by one of the speakers are all limited signed editions.
 >
 > How does have a second signature and inscription in a signed limited
 > affect it? I've done this with a few Science Fiction works but never
 > any of my serious history.

My feeling is that the second signature certainly increases the value--but
by how much is, as usual, an open question. I've mentioned before that my
thinking is that an author's signature is more than just a souvenir or a
trophy; it is, in a sense, the author's imprimatur--indicative of his or her
approval of the work as it appears. This is not just my own notion--several
authors I can think of treat their signatures this way. Michael Cunningham
reportedly signs his first book only grudgingly, likewise Chris Offutt and
the proof version of "Out of the Woods." And Rick Moody won't sign his
first book at all.

Depending on the format of the publication, the first signature, on the
limitation page, was probably done on a sheet that was bound in or tipped in
later. But the second signature, in the actual book, is the one that more
directly expresses the author's acceptance of the finished product.

And an additional inscription, as Jessica notes, would certainly make the
book more desirable.

Besides, there's that inexplicable aura about a copy of a book (the whole
book, and not just a piece of it) that was actually at one time in the hands
of its author.


--
Jon Meyers
[To reply,
lose your way.]<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:35:36 -0500, "Jon Meyers"
<cathnjonyour RemoveThis @waygtw.net> declared:

 >And an additional inscription, as Jessica notes, would certainly make the
 >book more desirable.

funny, the common thinking among booksellers (and signed book buyers)
is that a personal inscription lessens the value.

 >Besides, there's that inexplicable aura about a copy of a book (the whole
 >book, and not just a piece of it) that was actually at one time in the hands
 >of its author.

absolutely! this is why signed limiteds really don't do much for me
personally.


robert

"I've been long, a long way from here
Put on a poncho, played for mosquitos,
And drank til I was thirsty again
We went searching through thrift store jungles
Found Geronimo's rifle, Marilyn's shampoo
And Benny Goodman's corset and pen"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

In article <uth8kvom4nlh0r9r0ncjidid8cnn12uoon RemoveThis @4ax.com>, MindElec
<MindElec RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:

 > On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:35:36 -0500, "Jon Meyers"
 > <cathnjonyour RemoveThis @waygtw.net> declared:
 >
  > >And an additional inscription, as Jessica notes, would certainly make the
  > >book more desirable.
 >
 > funny, the common thinking among booksellers (and signed book buyers)
 > is that a personal inscription lessens the value.

"To Joe Nobody from Kurt V" -- who wants that (well, if literally to Joe
Nobody from Kurt V, that might actually be something). But inscriptions
with meaning, or to people with associational interest, WAY better than a
generic scribble. Even just a DATE adds more than the signature alone. I
have a Mary Beard book inscribed at length with thanks to a woman who put
her up in Seattle during a lecture tour. FASCINATING inscription. I
previously had in stock books Damon Knight inscribed to Ursula LeGuin.
Like I'm so sure she read those before trading them away.

-paghat the ratgirl

  > >Besides, there's that inexplicable aura about a copy of a book (the whole
  > >book, and not just a piece of it) that was actually at one time in the hands
  > >of its author.
 >
 > absolutely! this is why signed limiteds really don't do much for me
 > personally.
 >
 >
 > robert
 >
 > "I've been long, a long way from here
 > Put on a poncho, played for mosquitos,
 > And drank til I was thirsty again
 > We went searching through thrift store jungles
 > Found Geronimo's rifle, Marilyn's shampoo
 > And Benny Goodman's corset and pen"

--
"Of what are you afraid, my child?" inquired the kindly teacher.
"Oh, sir! The flowers, they are wild," replied the timid creature.
-from Peter Newell's "Wild Flowers"
See the Garden of Paghat the Ratgirl: <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.paghat.com/" target="_blank">http://www.paghat.com/</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 23:00:49 -0700, paghat.TakeThisOut@netscapeSPAM-ME-NOT.net
(paghat) declared:

 >In article <uth8kvom4nlh0r9r0ncjidid8cnn12uoon.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>, MindElec
 ><MindElec.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
 >
  >> On Wed, 20 Aug 2003 22:35:36 -0500, "Jon Meyers"
  >> <cathnjonyour.TakeThisOut@waygtw.net> declared:
  >>
   >> >And an additional inscription, as Jessica notes, would certainly make the
   >> >book more desirable.
  >>
  >> funny, the common thinking among booksellers (and signed book buyers)
  >> is that a personal inscription lessens the value.
 >
 >"To Joe Nobody from Kurt V" -- who wants that (well, if literally to Joe
 >Nobody from Kurt V, that might actually be something).

which is what you are going to get 99% of the time.

 >But inscriptions
 >with meaning, or to people with associational interest, WAY better than a
 >generic scribble. Even just a DATE adds more than the signature alone. I
 >have a Mary Beard book inscribed at length with thanks to a woman who put
 >her up in Seattle during a lecture tour. FASCINATING inscription.

neat, but do you think it increased the dollar value of the book?
I
 >previously had in stock books Damon Knight inscribed to Ursula LeGuin.
 >Like I'm so sure she read those before trading them away.

entirely different matter, they are both notables in the SF/fantasy
field of course an inscription from one to the other would be more
valuable.

personally i feel it's whatever makes john s. happy. i don't believe
that his ultimate goal is resale, and in "general" it's not going to
hurt the book.


robert

"I've been long, a long way from here
Put on a poncho, played for mosquitos,
And drank til I was thirsty again
We went searching through thrift store jungles
Found Geronimo's rifle, Marilyn's shampoo
And Benny Goodman's corset and pen"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

Because many collectors turn their noses up at limited editions, having it
signed again can only increase the value. I've had many a ltd edition signed
again (and sometimes again.) I have a Van Vogt signed 50 years apart.

---Mike

"John A. Stovall" <johnastovall.DeleteThis@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:lf38kvkmmda3791jee1qqlld6jl6d6p6hi@4ax.com...
 > I'm going to be at a history symposium in November and the rarest
 > works by one of the speakers are all limited signed editions.
 >
 > How does have a second signature and inscription in a signed limited
 > affect it? I've done this with a few Science Fiction works but never
 > any of my serious history.
 >
 >
 > **********************************************************
 >
 > "Daddy Daddy. It was just like you said
 > Now that the living outnumber the dead.
 > Speak my language.
 > Hello. Hello.
 > Here come the quick. There go the dead.
 > Here they come. Bright red. Speak my language."
 >
 > "Speak My Language"
 > Laurie Anderson from
 > "Bright Red"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

MindElec wrote:

 > the common thinking among booksellers (and signed book buyers)
 > is that a personal inscription lessens the value.

I'm not quite sure if I'm reading people right here, but I *think* we're
talking about getting the author to write a second signature with a
personalised inscription in a book that (as a signed limited edition) has
already been signed once.

Now, I know our friend Flatsigned ("Flatty" to his friends) has made a
career out of trying to convince people that a straight signature (i.e., one
with no personal inscription) is preferable to a signature with an
inscription, and I know he's actually had some success. And there are
perhaps a few people who, quite independently of Flatsigned, prefer
unadorned signatures in any case.

But the established ethos is, surely, quite the reverse, i.e., a
personalised inscription is generally more valuable? OK, Flatty pumps the
idea, "Who wants a book inscribed 'To John' if your name isn't John?" and,
as I say, there are those who agree. But the other side of the coin is:

1. If the question of forgery arises, it is far more likely to apply to an
uninscribed signature. Forgers will keep it as brief as possible to avoid
detection. The more they write the greater the chance of them making a slip
and being found out. The longer the inscription the easier for an expert to
confirm its authenticity.

2. Inscriptions can *doubly* guarantee authenticity, not just because a
longer message is harder to forge, but because they can also provide
provenance. OK, just "John" isn't very helpful, perhaps, but if John lays in
a signed photograph of himself at the book convention where the signing took
place, or a letter addressed to him that touches on something connected to
the book or the genre, or even just something that "places" him (his
profession, or whatever), then the book now has a provenance. It is now a
"signed, limited edition, re-signed by the author with an inscription to the
noted New York saxophone player, John Smith (or whatever). Of course, if
John Smith is in any way famous, or associated with the author in some way,
then the value of the inscription increases exponentially.

I'm not a collector of modern firsts, but on the odd occasion I've ever had
an author sign a book for me I've asked them to personalise it. Call me
bigheaded, but who knows - I might make it big one day, and the fact that
it's inscribed to *me* might make it even more valuable than the author's
signature!

--
John
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:17:36 +0900, "John Yamamoto-Wilson"
<john DeleteThis @rarebooksinjapan.com> declared:

 >MindElec wrote:
 >
  >> the common thinking among booksellers (and signed book buyers)
  >> is that a personal inscription lessens the value.
 >
 >I'm not quite sure if I'm reading people right here, but I *think* we're
 >talking about getting the author to write a second signature with a
 >personalised inscription in a book that (as a signed limited edition) has
 >already been signed once.

that's how i'm reading it.

 >Now, I know our friend Flatsigned ("Flatty" to his friends) has made a
 >career out of trying to convince people that a straight signature (i.e., one
 >with no personal inscription) is preferable to a signature with an
 >inscription, and I know he's actually had some success. And there are
 >perhaps a few people who, quite independently of Flatsigned, prefer
 >unadorned signatures in any case.
 >
 >But the established ethos is, surely, quite the reverse, i.e., a
 >personalised inscription is generally more valuable? OK, Flatty pumps the
 >idea, "Who wants a book inscribed 'To John' if your name isn't John?" and,
 >as I say, there are those who agree. But the other side of the coin is:
 >
 >1. If the question of forgery arises, it is far more likely to apply to an
 >uninscribed signature. Forgers will keep it as brief as possible to avoid
 >detection. The more they write the greater the chance of them making a slip
 >and being found out. The longer the inscription the easier for an expert to
 >confirm its authenticity.
 >
 >2. Inscriptions can *doubly* guarantee authenticity, not just because a
 >longer message is harder to forge, but because they can also provide
 >provenance. OK, just "John" isn't very helpful, perhaps, but if John lays in
 >a signed photograph of himself at the book convention where the signing took
 >place, or a letter addressed to him that touches on something connected to
 >the book or the genre, or even just something that "places" him (his
 >profession, or whatever), then the book now has a provenance. It is now a
 >"signed, limited edition, re-signed by the author with an inscription to the
 >noted New York saxophone player, John Smith (or whatever). Of course, if
 >John Smith is in any way famous, or associated with the author in some way,
 >then the value of the inscription increases exponentially.

john i agree with your reasoning, but on modern firsts it is easier to
sell a book that is not inscribed as such. whether the book is
actually worth more or less is an arguement that's been around way
before flatty opened a book

 >I'm not a collector of modern firsts, but on the odd occasion I've ever had
 >an author sign a book for me I've asked them to personalise it.

here's one of the few i have that's personalized. in this case it
really illustrates the "frentic" energy that this guy had.

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/kp0p" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/kp0p</a>

however, since i've decided that it's a book that needs to go, the
inscription will possibly make it a harder sale.

 >Call me
 >bigheaded, but who knows - I might make it big one day, and the fact that
 >it's inscribed to *me* might make it even more valuable than the author's
 >signature!

in a week i'll be 37, i somehow don't see everlasting fame in my
future. these days i just get the signature, it's easier to sell it
when the rents due.


robert

"I've been long, a long way from here
Put on a poncho, played for mosquitos,
And drank til I was thirsty again
We went searching through thrift store jungles
Found Geronimo's rifle, Marilyn's shampoo
And Benny Goodman's corset and pen"<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

"MindElec" <MindElec.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:rbq8kvkc7a0spgnriaicr7u8t7p28vjg2e@4ax.com...
 > On Thu, 21 Aug 2003 14:17:36 +0900, "John Yamamoto-Wilson"
 > <john.DeleteThis@rarebooksinjapan.com> declared:
 >
 >
 > john i agree with your reasoning, but on modern firsts it is easier to
 > sell a book that is not inscribed as such. whether the book is
 > actually worth more or less is an arguement that's been around way
 > before flatty opened a book

I haven't parted with any of the signed books I've picked up in my travels
yet, so I have no personal experience with them being easier or harder to
sell, but my knee-jerk reaction is that I would much rather have a
personalized book than a flat signature. It somehow seems to put "more" of
the author into it.

 >
  > >I'm not a collector of modern firsts, but on the odd occasion I've ever
had
  > >an author sign a book for me I've asked them to personalise it.
 >
 > here's one of the few i have that's personalized. in this case it
 > really illustrates the "frentic" energy that this guy had.
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/kp0p</font" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/kp0p</font</a>>
 >
 > however, since i've decided that it's a book that needs to go, the
 > inscription will possibly make it a harder sale.
 >
Yep. That picture confirms my theory. If I were collecting that author, I
would far rather have the GadZooks! book than a plain signature. It really
captures a personality.... and I'll bet everyone who was at Borders with him
had a delightful time too!

  > >Call me
  > >bigheaded, but who knows - I might make it big one day, and the fact that
  > >it's inscribed to *me* might make it even more valuable than the author's
  > >signature!
 >
 > in a week i'll be 37, i somehow don't see everlasting fame in my
 > future. these days i just get the signature, it's easier to sell it
 > when the rents due.
 >

Oh my gosh. You've got plenty of time to become everlastingly famous! There
are tons of people who didn't even get STARTED until their 40's or 50's.
Sports and acting are overloaded with youngsters, but they aren't aren't
everything. You may have to settle for being an intellectual giant or
something, but as long as you find ways to do what you love, you'll make
your mark. (And if it's on a book, I want a copy inscribed to me!)

Alice<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

MindElec <MindElec.TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote in message news:<rbq8kvkc7a0spgnriaicr7u8t7p28vjg2e.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>...

   > >> the common thinking among booksellers (and signed book buyers)
   > >> is that a personal inscription lessens the value.



I would add some other reasons for preferring an inscribed copy (even
to Joe Nobody):

(1) It decreases the chances that the book has been "signed" by
mechanical reproduction (although of course secretarial inscriptions
are still possible--as I learned with my long "Thomas Merton"
inscription).

(2) Authors are aware of the flatsigned trend. If you ask for a flat
signature, they suspect that you intend to resell. If, however, you
ask for an inscription, the chances are better that you will get a
more impressive inscription, even if you are "no one of consequence."


(Ken Lopez dissects the flatsigned trend here:

<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.lopezbooks.com/articles/signed.html" target="_blank">http://www.lopezbooks.com/articles/signed.html</a> )



 > john i agree with your reasoning, but on modern firsts it is easier to
 > sell a book that is not inscribed as such. whether the book is
 > actually worth more or less is an arguement that's been around way
 > before flatty opened a book



I think we need to define our terms. By "modern firsts," I take you
to mean hypermoderns or contemporaries (usually books whose authors
are still living). I've always understood "modern firsts" to mean the
literary first editions of authors from the first half of the 20/c
(i.e., the "Modern Age"): Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Faulkner, Steinbeck,
etc. That is, "modern" meaning not just contemporary but also in the
modernist style.

If we use the standard definition, I would think that any personally
inscribed modern first (even "To John, Yrs, Ernest Hemingway") would
be more valuable than one with a flat signature.



  > >I'm not a collector of modern firsts, but on the odd occasion I've ever had
  > >an author sign a book for me I've asked them to personalise it.
 >
 > here's one of the few i have that's personalized. in this case it
 > really illustrates the "frentic" energy that this guy had.
 >
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://tinyurl.com/kp0p</font" target="_blank">http://tinyurl.com/kp0p</font</a>>
 >
 > however, since i've decided that it's a book that needs to go, the
 > inscription will possibly make it a harder sale.



With all due respect to Cliff Stoll, is that really a good example? I
mean SILICON SNAKE OIL is not a collectible book--I can't count how
many I have seen in thrifts, and Amazon Marketplace has 90 copies
listed starting at $0.38. I don't think much short of a $50 bill
clipped to the flyleaf is going to make it very saleable.

That said, I like your inscribed copy better than any other copy I've
seen!



  > >Call me
  > >bigheaded, but who knows - I might make it big one day, and the fact that
  > >it's inscribed to *me* might make it even more valuable than the author's
  > >signature!
 >
 > in a week i'll be 37, i somehow don't see everlasting fame in my
 > future. these days i just get the signature, it's easier to sell it
 > when the rents due.



I don't think I've ever gotten a book signed just, or primarily, to
sell it. As a serious collector, I do hope for a certain, if limited,
amount of fame in the future, if only posthumous. I think, therefore,
that personally inscribed books will increase the overall value of the
collection.


William M. Klimon
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.gateofbliss.com" target="_blank">http://www.gateofbliss.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

I have spent a number of years involved in the issue of Americans held
captive as prisoners of war in Vietnam. In the course of this, I have
contacted many former POWs who are also authors. Many of these men have
inscribed their books to me, some making personal comments regarding my
involvement with the issue. Consequently, these inscriptions are far, far
more valuable to me than to anyone else. Perhaps these volumes would be
more "valuable" to a seller without the inscriptions, but to me, that
concept is foreign. The real value to me is in the personal involvement.
If, some day long in the future, one of these men becomes very famous, and
his signature becomes very expensive, and that value is enhanced because the
signature is on a first edition of one of his books, and that book has been
kept in very nice condition by me, thus enhancing its value again, I hope
that I still won't care. Someone else, indeed, might. But the real value
to me will be very personal. Perhaps this is why, in other books that I
collect, I prefer an inscription to a signature. I usually imagine a very
personal time, in which the author makes a (often somewhat criptic) comment
which only he/she and the inscribee understand, and it touches my soul more
than the "flatsigned" ever could. But, that's just me, and I am a
collector, not a dealer.
--
Russell Funk
RussellFunk RemoveThis @USA.com


"John Yamamoto-Wilson" <john RemoveThis @rarebooksinjapan.com> wrote in message
news:bi1l1n$47loh$1@ID-169501.news.uni-berlin.de...
 > MindElec wrote:
 >
  > > the common thinking among booksellers (and signed book buyers)
  > > is that a personal inscription lessens the value.
 >
 > I'm not quite sure if I'm reading people right here, but I *think* we're
 > talking about getting the author to write a second signature with a
 > personalised inscription in a book that (as a signed limited edition) has
 > already been signed once.
 >
 > Now, I know our friend Flatsigned ("Flatty" to his friends) has made a
 > career out of trying to convince people that a straight signature (i.e.,
one
 > with no personal inscription) is preferable to a signature with an
 > inscription, and I know he's actually had some success. And there are
 > perhaps a few people who, quite independently of Flatsigned, prefer
 > unadorned signatures in any case.
 >
 > But the established ethos is, surely, quite the reverse, i.e., a
 > personalised inscription is generally more valuable? OK, Flatty pumps the
 > idea, "Who wants a book inscribed 'To John' if your name isn't John?" and,
 > as I say, there are those who agree. But the other side of the coin is:
 >
 > 1. If the question of forgery arises, it is far more likely to apply to an
 > uninscribed signature. Forgers will keep it as brief as possible to avoid
 > detection. The more they write the greater the chance of them making a
slip
 > and being found out. The longer the inscription the easier for an expert
to
 > confirm its authenticity.
 >
 > 2. Inscriptions can *doubly* guarantee authenticity, not just because a
 > longer message is harder to forge, but because they can also provide
 > provenance. OK, just "John" isn't very helpful, perhaps, but if John lays
in
 > a signed photograph of himself at the book convention where the signing
took
 > place, or a letter addressed to him that touches on something connected to
 > the book or the genre, or even just something that "places" him (his
 > profession, or whatever), then the book now has a provenance. It is now a
 > "signed, limited edition, re-signed by the author with an inscription to
the
 > noted New York saxophone player, John Smith (or whatever). Of course, if
 > John Smith is in any way famous, or associated with the author in some
way,
 > then the value of the inscription increases exponentially.
 >
 > I'm not a collector of modern firsts, but on the odd occasion I've ever
had
 > an author sign a book for me I've asked them to personalise it. Call me
 > bigheaded, but who knows - I might make it big one day, and the fact that
 > it's inscribed to *me* might make it even more valuable than the author's
 > signature!
 >
 > --
 > John
<font color=purple> > <a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font" target="_blank">http://rarebooksinjapan.com</font</a>>
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

"Russell Funk" <RussellFunk.DeleteThis@USA.com> wrote in message news:<vkc98icegcir07.DeleteThis@corp.supernews.com>...

 > I have spent a number of years involved in the issue of Americans held
 > captive as prisoners of war in Vietnam. In the course of this, I have
 > contacted many former POWs who are also authors. Many of these men have
 > inscribed their books to me, some making personal comments regarding my
 > involvement with the issue. Consequently, these inscriptions are far, far
 > more valuable to me than to anyone else. Perhaps these volumes would be
 > more "valuable" to a seller without the inscriptions, but to me, that
 > concept is foreign. The real value to me is in the personal involvement.
 > If, some day long in the future, one of these men becomes very famous, and
 > his signature becomes very expensive, and that value is enhanced because the
 > signature is on a first edition of one of his books, and that book has been
 > kept in very nice condition by me, thus enhancing its value again, I hope
 > that I still won't care.



This reemphasizes, I think, one of the points that I was making if
only obliquely: namely, that a collection's value may be (often is)
greater than the sum of its parts. Thus, a personally inscribed book
individually may have a smaller value on the spot market--but I think
that same book as part of a thoughtfully constructed collection would
add more to the total value than otherwise.

I think this point is crucial. I know we all talk about individual
brags in terms of single bargain purchases--but the really interesting
thing is building a collection where those individual values don't
matter so much but rather contribute more than it would at first seem
to the value of the whole collection.


William M. Klimon
<a style='text-decoration: underline;' href="http://www.gateofbliss.com" target="_blank">http://www.gateofbliss.com</a><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing? 

<< This reemphasizes, I think, one of the points that I was making if
only obliquely: namely, that a collection's value may be (often is)
greater than the sum of its parts. >><BR><BR>

Indeed, I've seen collections by one author go on eBay for much more than the
individual volumes would fetch in a B&M store. To me, it seemed like this
might be the sign of a collector starting up.


"Justice is as strictly due between neighbor nations as between neighbor
citizens. A highwayman is as much a robber when he plunders in a gang, as when
single; and a nation that makes an unjust war is only a great gang."

--Benjamin Franklin
 >> Stay informed about: Double signing?