Dwarf subsistence

"Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelelsen
news:fkmcfp$vnr$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...

> Well, it's rather quiet round here: is it the time of year, or have things
> been like this for a while? I thought I'd provide a topic for
> discussion...

Both are true. Most people seem to post from work, unlike honest people
who work at work, so in weekends and other holidays, when people are home,
traffic declines. >;-}

> So I was wondering just how this could be possible, and what it is that
> they would have been living on. I can't off the top of my head think of
> any examples of what or how Dwarves cultivate. The only thing that occurs
> to me is that they were using the lower parts of the Misty Mountains for
> cultivation, either on inaccessible natural plateaus or by terracing, such
> as what the Incas achieved in the Andes.

> Any alternative suggestions?

Possibly they lived a little like the Petty-dwarves of Amon Rûdh,
collecting edibles that Men could not find, in high glades with little
posterns perhaps leading to them from the halls within. Cultivation in such
glades and high vales is also possible. We know that they did not stay
cooped up inside constantly; Balin was murdered when looking into the
Mirrormere, and he had companions with him who at once avenged him. But
when enemies came it may have been the nature of the Dwarves to fight and
make their last stand within, where Men or Elves trapped in Moria would be
more likely to make their last stand outside if they could. I suppose the
Dwarves may have been a little like Hobbits in culinary matters: eating well
when they could, frugally when they must, though being much more willing
than Hobbits to put up with frugally.

Brân.
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Clams Canino wrote:
> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk> wrote in message
>
>> Unless he was simply manipulating
>> Gloin into supporting his plan to enter Moria, and I don't think that is
>> likely. Besides, if it wasn't possible Gimli would have contradicted him.
>
>
> What company are you talking about with Gloin?
>
> -W
>
>
Ooops!
I mean Gimli, of course.

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Raven wrote:
> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong.RemoveThis@durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelelsen
> news:fkmcfp$vnr$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...
>
>> Well, it's rather quiet round here: is it the time of year, or have
>> things been like this for a while? I thought I'd provide a topic for
>> discussion...
>
> Both are true. Most people seem to post from work, unlike honest
> people who work at work, so in weekends and other holidays, when people
> are home, traffic declines. >;-}

Activity certainly has declined greatly over the last two years,
hasn't it? Regulars have disappeared, and not really been replaced
by very many newbies.

>> So I was wondering just how this could be possible, and what it is
>> that they would have been living on. I can't off the top of my head
>> think of any examples of what or how Dwarves cultivate. The only thing
>> that occurs to me is that they were using the lower parts of the Misty
>> Mountains for cultivation, either on inaccessible natural plateaus or
>> by terracing, such as what the Incas achieved in the Andes.
>
>> Any alternative suggestions?
>
> Possibly they lived a little like the Petty-dwarves of Amon Rûdh,
> collecting edibles that Men could not find, in high glades with little
> posterns perhaps leading to them from the halls within. Cultivation in
> such glades and high vales is also possible. We know that they did not
> stay cooped up inside constantly; Balin was murdered when looking into
> the Mirrormere, and he had companions with him who at once avenged him.
> But when enemies came it may have been the nature of the Dwarves to
> fight and make their last stand within, where Men or Elves trapped in
> Moria would be more likely to make their last stand outside if they
> could. I suppose the Dwarves may have been a little like Hobbits in
> culinary matters: eating well when they could, frugally when they must,
> though being much more willing than Hobbits to put up with frugally.
>
> Brân.

There might also have been edible fungi somewhere within Moria, as in
the Interplay graphic adventure for /FotR/.
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

In message <news:13mtihbaadjdrca@corp.supernews.com>
Steve Morrison <rimagen DeleteThis @toast.net> spoke these staves:
>
> Raven wrote:
>>
>> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong DeleteThis @durham.ac.uk> skrev i
>> meddelelsen news:fkmcfp$vnr$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...
>>>
>>> Well, it's rather quiet round here: is it the time of year, or
>>> have things been like this for a while? I thought I'd provide a
>>> topic for discussion...
>>
>> Both are true. Most people seem to post from work, unlike
>> honest people who work at work, so in weekends and other holidays,
>> when people are home, traffic declines. >;-}

None shall say that I can't do both -- to post both from work, from
home and, as in this case, from the in-laws' place

> Activity certainly has declined greatly over the last two years,
> hasn't it? Regulars have disappeared, and not really been replaced
> by very many newbies.

I wonder if the films were holding us up

It would also seem that the weekly chapter discussions of /The
Hobbit/ and /The Lord of the Rings/ kept up the traffic. When the
discussions of LotR stopped in October 2005, traffic seems to have
dropped below 1000 posts per month for the first time in more than 8
years.

The sporge flood in RABT (it seems to have abated, although Google
still shows some articles) may also have contributed to our reaching
a low low-point ('There is no curse in Elvish, Entish, or the tongues
of Men bad enough for such [behaviour]. Down with [the sporge-
attacker]!')

Quite possibly changes in internet behaviour are also contributing --
these days the web-based forums and blogs seems to attract more
people (personally I can't stand the lack of proper threading in the
vast majority of forums, but then again, I'm probably too old to
understand . . .).

<snip>

Dwarves living in Moria for years without contact with outside world:

> There might also have been edible fungi somewhere within Moria, as
> in the Interplay graphic adventure for /FotR/.

Or they might have lived off nameless things

Basically I think this covers the two suggestions that I've seen in
literature -- either the secluded vales or the things that grow in
darkness. In Tolkien's other descriptions of 'things that grow in
darkness' they don't really appear to me as viable alternatives for a
nourishing diet

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

And he that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left
the path of wisdom.
- Gandalf, /The Fellowship of the Ring/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

"Raven" <jon.lennart.beck.its.my.name.TakeThisOut@mail.its.in.danmark> skrev i
meddelandet news:476ec700$0$2107$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk...

> Mirrormere, and he had companions with him who at once avenged him. But
> when enemies came it may have been the nature of the Dwarves to fight and
> make their last stand within, where Men or Elves trapped in Moria would be
> more likely to make their last stand outside if they could.

Don't forget that entry in the Book of Mazarbul, one of the last : "We
cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the Bridge and second
hall." No doubt they put up a brave final fight, but if there had been a
chance to escape outside, they would obviously have taken it.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Mon, 24 Dec 2007 00:09:56 +0100 from Troels Forchhammer
<Troels DeleteThis @ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> Basically I think this covers the two suggestions that I've seen in
> literature -- either the secluded vales or the things that grow in
> darkness. In Tolkien's other descriptions of 'things that grow in
> darkness' they don't really appear to me as viable alternatives for a
> nourishing diet

Don't forget fish in underground rivers. They would be wholesome, I
think.

But I don't know what the Dwarves would do for carbohydrates.

Do they need them? Dwarves are different from Elves and Men. While
undoubtedly they must take some sustenance, and those living among
other people seem to eat what those people eat, we don't know what
are the minimum requirements to sustain Dwarvish life.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

"Troels Forchhammer" <Troels RemoveThis @ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns9A101AFD1B87T.Forch@130.133.1.4...

[snip]

> Quite possibly changes in internet behaviour are also contributing --
> these days the web-based forums and blogs seems to attract more
> people (personally I can't stand the lack of proper threading in the
> vast majority of forums, but then again, I'm probably too old to
> understand . . .).

I feel just like you about web-based forums, but then, I may be another old
gaffer without a proper appreciation of their grandeur.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

"Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net.TakeThisOut@ojevind.lang> skrev i meddelelsen
news:5t8ek7F1cbm0tU1@mid.individual.net...

> "Raven" <jon.lennart.beck.its.my.name.TakeThisOut@mail.its.in.danmark> skrev i
> meddelandet news:476ec700$0$2107$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk...

>> Mirrormere, and he had companions with him who at once avenged him. But
>> when enemies came it may have been the nature of the Dwarves to fight and
>> make their last stand within, where Men or Elves trapped in Moria would
>> be more likely to make their last stand outside if they could.

> Don't forget that entry in the Book of Mazarbul, one of the last : "We
> cannot get out. We cannot get out. They have taken the Bridge and second
> hall." No doubt they put up a brave final fight, but if there had been a
> chance to escape outside, they would obviously have taken it.

I did not forget it. Nor that the Watcher in the water took Óin. But
for the Watcher they could and probably would have made their escape out of
the West-gate. The Orcs came only from the east, possibly sent and probably
at least aided by Dol Guldur.
I was referring to a last stand. *If* Moria had several exits, beyond
the three that we know of - the two gates, and the top of Silvertine - but
only the gates leading to *escape*, and the other doors, like that at
Silvertine, leading to dead ends and unscalable precipices, then Dwarves may
have preferred to make their last stand inside, at Balin's tomb at that,
where Elves and Men might have preferred one under the sky,
We don't know if there were more than these three exits. Gimli certainly
did not know of that at Silvertine save as a rumour. But it would seem to
me that the Dwarves would not have made many doors into their impregnable
fortress for a foe to force an entrance through. They might or might not
have made a few into high places on the montainsides, for gardening, for
fresh air, for foraging, for spying. These glens and shelves would have
been chosen so that only on wing or through Moria could one reach them.
Thus an army of foes could not use them, and the Dwarves could focus their
defence on the two gates. But they could also not use those doors to
escape - I somehow doubt that BASEjumping was a frequently practiced pastime
among the peoples of Middle-earth.

Korpen.
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Stan Brown wrote:

> But I don't know what the Dwarves would do for carbohydrates.

When Snow White arrives at the Dwarves' house she finds plenty
of carbohydrates. She even bakes a pie (with steam vents supplied
by cooperative songbirds stepping on the crust).

> Do they need them? Dwarves are different from Elves and Men.

Dwarves are indeed a race apart, but they still have to eat
(as did Thorin & Co. at Bag End). Where do they get their provisions?
Not from the mines they work (mushrooms aside). Obviously they trade
their mineral products for food.

This is why Durin slept for so long. He had to wait for the Dawn
of Agriculture.

Sean_Q_
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Jamie Armstrong kirjoitti:

> "There is even a chance that Dwarves are there [i.e. Moria], and that in
> some deep hall of his fathers, Balin son of Fundin may be found."
> (FotR, A Journey in the Dark)
>
> Now, Balin occupied Moria in 2989, but no more is heard from the colony
> after 2994, when it is wiped out. The Company enters Moria in 3019, 25
> years after the last contact was heard. So Gandalf is clearly of the
> opinion that the Dwarves could have survived 25 years trapped within
> Moria without any outside supplies. Unless he was simply manipulating
> Gloin into supporting his plan to enter Moria, and I don't think that is
> likely. Besides, if it wasn't possible Gimli would have contradicted him.
>
> So I was wondering just how this could be possible, and what it is that
> they would have been living on. I can't off the top of my head think of
> any examples of what or how Dwarves cultivate. The only thing that
> occurs to me is that they were using the lower parts of the Misty
> Mountains for cultivation, either on inaccessible natural plateaus or by
> terracing, such as what the Incas achieved in the Andes.
>
> Any alternative suggestions?

1) They might not have been trapped. Could be just that the
messengers they sent had been killed on the dangerous journey.
Or the enemy activity could ahve prevented them from sending
messengers at all. As far as Gandalf knew that is.

2) They probably had large stockpile of cram. Not as yummy as
lembas, but maybe enough to keep dwarf alive for a decade or two.

Morgil
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Do we know how long cram keeps for?
>
> Jamie

It's like Twinkies. As long as you don't open the package, for-darn-
near-ever.
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Raven wrote:
> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong DeleteThis @durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelelsen
> news:fkmcfp$vnr$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...
>
>> Well, it's rather quiet round here: is it the time of year, or have
>> things been like this for a while? I thought I'd provide a topic for
>> discussion...
>
> Both are true. Most people seem to post from work, unlike honest
> people who work at work, so in weekends and other holidays, when people
> are home, traffic declines. >;-}
>
Ah. Do you know, I never noticed that before! Then again, I think for
the most part I used to post at University, so would have been someone
who wasn't around at weekends and on holidays, so wouldn't have noticed
anyway.

>> So I was wondering just how this could be possible, and what it is
>> that they would have been living on. I can't off the top of my head
>> think of any examples of what or how Dwarves cultivate. The only thing
>> that occurs to me is that they were using the lower parts of the Misty
>> Mountains for cultivation, either on inaccessible natural plateaus or
>> by terracing, such as what the Incas achieved in the Andes.
>
>> Any alternative suggestions?
>
> Possibly they lived a little like the Petty-dwarves of Amon Rûdh,
> collecting edibles that Men could not find, in high glades with little
> posterns perhaps leading to them from the halls within. Cultivation in
> such glades and high vales is also possible. We know that they did not
> stay cooped up inside constantly; Balin was murdered when looking into
> the Mirrormere, and he had companions with him who at once avenged him.

Oh, I'm sure that during times of peace the dwarves would have
cultivated the lands around Moria, particularly those in the Vale of
Anduin, which must have been very rich. I'm sure they would also have
traded with the Elves of Hollin and Lothlorien, prior to the coming of
the balrog. I seem to remember the impression was that the Dwarves of
Erebor traded with Laketown, so perhaps they didn't even need to do any
farming themselves.

> But when enemies came it may have been the nature of the Dwarves to
> fight and make their last stand within, where Men or Elves trapped in
> Moria would be more likely to make their last stand outside if they
> could. I suppose the Dwarves may have been a little like Hobbits in
> culinary matters: eating well when they could, frugally when they must,
> though being much more willing than Hobbits to put up with frugally.
>
20 years is a lot of belt-tightening!

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence 

Steve Morrison wrote:
> Raven wrote:
>> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong RemoveThis @durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelelsen
>> news:fkmcfp$vnr$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...

<snip>

>>> Any alternative suggestions?
>>
>> Possibly they lived a little like the Petty-dwarves of Amon Rûdh,
>> collecting edibles that Men could not find, in high glades with little
>> posterns perhaps leading to them from the halls within. Cultivation
>> in such glades and high vales is also possible. We know that they did
>> not stay cooped up inside constantly; Balin was murdered when looking
>> into the Mirrormere, and he had companions with him who at once
>> avenged him. But when enemies came it may have been the nature of the
>> Dwarves to fight and make their last stand within, where Men or Elves
>> trapped in Moria would be more likely to make their last stand outside
>> if they could. I suppose the Dwarves may have been a little like
>> Hobbits in culinary matters: eating well when they could, frugally
>> when they must, though being much more willing than Hobbits to put up
>> with frugally.
>>
>> Brân.
>
> There might also have been edible fungi somewhere within Moria, as in
> the Interplay graphic adventure for /FotR/.

I did consider that possibility, but don't fungi need organic materials
to grow on in the first place? I suppose there was wood around from when
Moria was abandoned (which would suggest it was cold and dry in there),
so that could be utilised.

Jamie
 >> Stay informed about: Dwarf subsistence