Empire From the Ashes

On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 02:12:07 GMT, forkliftramp.com
<Brian_knowspam.McDonald RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote:

>nit picking aside an aircraft carrier has a pretty good machine shop
>or two so i would expect they would have the capacity to make most
>anything mechanical. they aren't gonna be making circuit boards etc
>without divine intervention though.
>knew a guy who bought the machine shop off a canadian destroyer that
>is now an artificial reef off vancouver island. hardly used and
>complete enough that if the tool wasn't there they had the tools to
>make the tools to make the gadget needed.

And the machine shops on the big craft in Troll will be *FAR* more
capable than this--given time I would expect them to be able to build
another ship. Probably to be operated by the descendants of the
original crew, though--it would be slow.

Consider Mutineer's Moon--Dahak carried the equipment needed to in
time build another Dahak. In fact, he had 4 such units. Troll isn't
at that level but the trend should be obvious.
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"forkliftramp.com" <Brian_knowspam.McDonald DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:8a6qv1h660iakeiga9j63fhesg0986us2a@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 23 Feb 2006 01:53:44 +0000 (UTC), quirk DeleteThis @swcp.com (Taki Kogoma)
> wrote:
>
>>On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 16:00:03 -0500, Glenn Chambers <spambait DeleteThis @bnnorth.net>
>>allegedly declared to alt.books.david-weber...
>>>I doubt even aircraft carriers carry the complete machining and
>>>heat-treating equipment necessary to create replacement F-15 parts from
>>>scratch...
>>
>>Since F-15s are absoultely not carrier-capable, I'd call this a safe
>>bet...
>
> nit picking aside an aircraft carrier has a pretty good machine shop
> or two so i would expect they would have the capacity to make most
> anything mechanical. they aren't gonna be making circuit boards etc
> without divine intervention though.
> knew a guy who bought the machine shop off a canadian destroyer that
> is now an artificial reef off vancouver island. hardly used and
> complete enough that if the tool wasn't there they had the tools to
> make the tools to make the gadget needed.

They didn't make the fancy alloys nor the material that lines a jet exhaust.
Like you said they had a nice machine shop.
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"Offbreed" <offbreed_106.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ntednbd7bZwpumDeRVn-pg@scnresearch.com...
> deowll wrote:
>> "Offbreed" <offbreed_106.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>>> About half that. You know it's possible.
>>
>> Not unless you know how to make the chips.
>
> "Half that" is a hundred years.
>
> In "Apoc Troll", we have someone who knows a bit about the basics of the
> advanced technology. To make a closer comparison, we would need to have
> someone carry the calculator back in time. The key question would be
> whether that person knew enough of the key information to start a new
> technology. We had photography about 150 years ago, and that's an
> important technology for transistors and ICs.
>
> If the politicians and businessmen of 200 years ago thought that the
> development of a pocket calculator was sufficiently important and had a
> near immortal informant to keep the project on track, I think it would
> take less than 100 years to develop that calculator, and computers.


You are trying to jump mechanical adding machines, tube computers, punch
cards, and transistors. Your tech base is completely unprepared to make
these things. They aren't going to run off solar cells. You don't have a
clue about LCD displays.

It may have been Asimov who said that any tech that is sufficiently advanced
looks like magic. Even if you know it isn't magic you don't have many clues
on how to do it.

I'm not sure trying to do it this way wouldn't throw you behind because you
are trying to make to many leaps over the natural steps.
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"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel.DeleteThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:esbsv1pg0ff2hs63pj9p8jpqsetikckmba@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:35:51 -0600, "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
>>It would server no purpose what so ever. The people that use the machines
>>don't need this information and the people that maintain the machines
>>don't
>>either. When parts are defective you replace them from inventory. Most of
>>the parts would be made in large facilities that have extremely costly
>>equipment to make the units replaced. You might machine a bolt or
>>something
>>but that's about it.
>
> We are talking craft that may take battle damage that keeps them from
> getting to inventory. Remember, there's no radio. If your drive is
> down and you don't have a wingman you fix it yourself.

The Troll had a brain on life support.

>
>>You carry spare parts. You don't haul around manufacturing plants that
>>turn
>>ore into computer chips then put them on a circuit board and program them.
>
> I think the big ships will have that sort of capability.
>
>>The manuals are in the maintenance computers that read the downloads from
>>the military hardware. Hauling around the maintenance computers in the
>>fighting machines would reduce payload, speed, endurance and provide data
>>to
>>your enemies.
>
> Just how big do you think those manuals will be? Remember how much is
> in her tiny dog tag.
>
> The only issue is capture--and that's only a matter if it's things the
> Kangas don't know.

That isn't how governments operate. The Bush administration has reclassified
records that were once declassified that contain nothing that should have
ever been classified. Governments are nuts when it comes to security. They
want to know everything and tell you nothing.
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"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel RemoveThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:eqbsv19532nf90lv6hspd9i53grt4mq20l@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 02:13:32 GMT, forkliftramp.com
> <Brian_knowspam.McDonald RemoveThis @shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>>while the capacity is probably fairly trivial there is a distinct
>>chance of the manuals falling into the hands of hostile forces which
>>your intel guys would freak over. there is also the consideration
>>that the odds of being able to fix anything major without parts and
>>tooling are about the same as the odds of flying home by flapping your
>>arms vigorously.
>>i think the guys who have the maintenance manuals will be the
>>maintenance crews same as today.
>
> The Kangas know how to make the stuff also, capture isn't a worry. It
> would only be the advanced stuff there would be any reason to hide.

If your best war machines aren't top secret then nothing is.
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deowll wrote:

> If your best war machines aren't top secret then nothing is.

Not everything in their ships is top secret, nor are the basic skills
and knowledge needed by the crew.

Today's USN ships carry basic education material in different fields for
people who want to strike for a rating or to change rating (specialty).
Things like "Basic Electricity and Electronics", basic transistor
theory, basic integrated circuit theory, etc, and none of it secret,
though knowing this basic stuff is necessary for learning about the top
secret equipment. I think we can safely assume that the big ships of the
future will continue to carry that basic educational material.

Someone else mentioned that the advanced computer memory chips had an
extremely large capacity, so I changed my mind and think there is a
chance that the basic training material could have been brought along on
board the fighter and/or the life boat, perhaps as part of a
standardized library. The Brass usually have this silly notion that
people will study for advancement if it's all the reading material
officially allowed.

Yes, some parts will be left out.

Okay, I dug out my copy of Apoc Troll, and scanned the part where
Ludmilla just woke up and started telling Capt Aston where she was from.

The Solarian forces fought off the Kanga force with what we knew and had
at the time, so everything we learn would have the effect of reducing
casualties and allowing a counterstrike that much sooner. And the
Solarian forces learned how to make multiphase engines by studying
defective Kanga missiles. I don't think they came with instruction manuals.

The one thing that I see that could throw the time line off is that the
invasion was going to be about 80 years after Ludmilla's arrival,
meaning the Kangas detected radio transmissions that originated from the
Earth at about the time of her arrival, as announced by a 50 Megaton nuke.

They are probably going to notice that.
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"Loren Pechtel" <lorenpechtel.DeleteThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote in message
news:2cbsv151gqqmou15oeceh1nse1lcvjf2nh@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 21 Feb 2006 20:38:48 -0600, "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>
> wrote:
>
> >> Not all the stuff to make the stuff but for the fighter itself--yes.
> >> Maintainence!
> >
> >We don't. Let me explain the problem. You are Ben Franklin and one smart
> >man. Somebody hands you a pocket calculator. You have no problem figuring
> >out how to use it. You can take it apart and look at the parts. How close
> >are you to making one? About two hundred years.
>
> I agree that some of the infrastructure won't exist. However I would
> expect a fair amount of information on how to make the parts to be
> included.
>
> We are talking about craft that could be marooned and have to repair
> themselves with only raw materials as inputs. Their computer
> capability permits storing all the information needed, why shouldn't
> they?

And to top things off, can we say self healing nanotech?

Given power and time some of the stuff could rebuild its self,
if the computer had the plans.
Maybe not the high end stuff, but a lot of the basic systems.
The let you live and limp back to base type of stuff.
 >> Stay informed about: Empire From the Ashes 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net>
wrote on Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:55:27 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>"Offbreed" <offbreed_106 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ntednbd7bZwpumDeRVn-pg@scnresearch.com...
>> deowll wrote:
>>> "Offbreed" <offbreed_106 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>>>> About half that. You know it's possible.
>>>
>>> Not unless you know how to make the chips.
>>
>> "Half that" is a hundred years.
>>
>> In "Apoc Troll", we have someone who knows a bit about the basics of the
>> advanced technology. To make a closer comparison, we would need to have
>> someone carry the calculator back in time. The key question would be
>> whether that person knew enough of the key information to start a new
>> technology. We had photography about 150 years ago, and that's an
>> important technology for transistors and ICs.
>>
>> If the politicians and businessmen of 200 years ago thought that the
>> development of a pocket calculator was sufficiently important and had a
>> near immortal informant to keep the project on track, I think it would
>> take less than 100 years to develop that calculator, and computers.
>
>
>You are trying to jump mechanical adding machines, tube computers, punch
>cards, and transistors. Your tech base is completely unprepared to make
>these things. They aren't going to run off solar cells. You don't have a
>clue about LCD displays.
>
>It may have been Asimov who said that any tech that is sufficiently advanced
>looks like magic. Even if you know it isn't magic you don't have many clues
>on how to do it.

Arthur C. Clarke, as I recall.
>
>I'm not sure trying to do it this way wouldn't throw you behind because you
>are trying to make to many leaps over the natural steps.

I can make all the intermediate steps on the way to the final product.
The fact that I have a transistorized calculator gives me an end point.
Instead of a series of intermediate advances, I have an end goal
(transistors) which will serve as a "Okay, this is fine, now on to the next
step."
--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Empire From the Ashes 

"pyotr filipivich" <phamp.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:kfisv11lebl0kvgoqh297s4vl3pim1885n@4ax.com...
> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net>
> wrote on Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:55:27 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>"Offbreed" <offbreed_106.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>news:ntednbd7bZwpumDeRVn-pg@scnresearch.com...
>>> deowll wrote:
>>>> "Offbreed" <offbreed_106.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>
>>>>> About half that. You know it's possible.
>>>>
>>>> Not unless you know how to make the chips.
>>>
>>> "Half that" is a hundred years.
>>>
>>> In "Apoc Troll", we have someone who knows a bit about the basics of the
>>> advanced technology. To make a closer comparison, we would need to have
>>> someone carry the calculator back in time. The key question would be
>>> whether that person knew enough of the key information to start a new
>>> technology. We had photography about 150 years ago, and that's an
>>> important technology for transistors and ICs.
>>>
>>> If the politicians and businessmen of 200 years ago thought that the
>>> development of a pocket calculator was sufficiently important and had a
>>> near immortal informant to keep the project on track, I think it would
>>> take less than 100 years to develop that calculator, and computers.
>>
>>
>>You are trying to jump mechanical adding machines, tube computers, punch
>>cards, and transistors. Your tech base is completely unprepared to make
>>these things. They aren't going to run off solar cells. You don't have a
>>clue about LCD displays.
>>
>>It may have been Asimov who said that any tech that is sufficiently
>>advanced
>>looks like magic. Even if you know it isn't magic you don't have many
>>clues
>>on how to do it.
>
> Arthur C. Clarke, as I recall.
>>
>>I'm not sure trying to do it this way wouldn't throw you behind because
>>you
>>are trying to make to many leaps over the natural steps.
>
> I can make all the intermediate steps on the way to the final product.
> The fact that I have a transistorized calculator gives me an end point.
> Instead of a series of intermediate advances, I have an end goal
> (transistors) which will serve as a "Okay, this is fine, now on to the
> next
> step."

And in many respects your goal is the wrong goal. You need to learn to crawl
and you are trying to learn to fly. You need to learn all sorts of things
that on the face of it don't have anything at all to do with the object you
are holding in your hand. Something that could easily fill a large library
and still leave you blank when it came to putting the information to use
because it would assume you knew all sorts of things you don't know.

They don't know how the chip works or how to get the materials to make it
nor have a clue about the methods used to make it. If you tried to hand wire
it with transistors it would take for ever if you knew what a transistor
was. Franklin came up with positive and negative charges and that lightening
is electricity.

Best advice. Work on advancing their own tech base.


> --
> pyotr filipivich
> Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
> Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Empire From the Ashes 

Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "mike weber" <fairportfan.RemoveThis@gmail.com>
wrote on 23 Feb 2006 01:44:19 -0800 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>Loren Pechtel wrote:
>> On Sun, 19 Feb 2006 21:20:41 -0600, "deowll" <deowll.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>> >You think we put plans on how to build our equipment in the computers in
>> >our equipment? I don't think so besides the hard part is building the tech
>> >to make the parts.
>>
>> Not all the stuff to make the stuff but for the fighter itself--yes.
>> Maintainence!
>
>Wonderful story in "Analog" thirty-odd years ago -- "Hawk Among the
>Sparrows", if i recall correctly (Ah-ha! Neetness, they name is Google
>-- 1968, correct title, Dean McLaughlin, novella), in which a
>hypersonic fighter/interceptor (think SR71 but hotter, optimised as an
>interceptor) and its pilot accidentally get dropped back to WW1.
>
>There's such a thing as being *too* superior.

There was also another story, a thought experiment, of a recon drone
tasked with getting atmospheric samples from a Nuclear Test, getting blown
into the 1930s. It lands, as per program, and the Army Air Force guys
there are greatly puzzled... etc. No pilot, no prop, burns kerosene, and
there are no tubes in all the electronics. And it is radioactive, too.

tschus
pyotr


--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Empire From the Ashes 

Loren Pechtel wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Feb 2006 02:13:32 GMT, forkliftramp.com
> <Brian_knowspam.McDonald DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>while the capacity is probably fairly trivial there is a distinct
>>chance of the manuals falling into the hands of hostile forces which
>>your intel guys would freak over. there is also the consideration
>>that the odds of being able to fix anything major without parts and
>>tooling are about the same as the odds of flying home by flapping your
>>arms vigorously.
>>i think the guys who have the maintenance manuals will be the
>>maintenance crews same as today.
>
>
> The Kangas know how to make the stuff also, capture isn't a worry. It
> would only be the advanced stuff there would be any reason to hide.

Given the relative technological levels described, I think
pretty near the entirety of a human fighter qualifies as "advanced
stuff".

--
John Campbell
jcampbel DeleteThis @lynn.ci-n.com
 >> Stay informed about: Empire From the Ashes 

tcowan wrote:

> Given power and time some of the stuff could rebuild its self,
> if the computer had the plans.
> Maybe not the high end stuff, but a lot of the basic systems.
> The let you live and limp back to base type of stuff.

That's a point. The latest drive might be secret, but an older design
might not be. It might be easier to build, as well.

That life boat was pretty round, so the slightest current will roll it
off somewhere. The salvage teams are going to have "fun" trying to find
that thing. Whee.
 >> Stay informed about: Empire From the Ashes 

The real issue with being able to reverse engineer any technological item is
centered around whether the technology that the item uses is an evolution of
your existing technology or a revolution. If it is an evolution you stand a
good chance of being able to succeed. If it is a revolution you many never
succeed in the short to medium time frame.

John (before retirement an R & D manager in high risk technology)


"deowll" <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:x3tLf.7135$u%.3792@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "pyotr filipivich" <phamp RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:kfisv11lebl0kvgoqh297s4vl3pim1885n@4ax.com...
>> Okay, so I'm late and catching up, but "deowll" <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net>
>> wrote on Thu, 23 Feb 2006 16:55:27 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>>>
>>>"Offbreed" <offbreed_106 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:ntednbd7bZwpumDeRVn-pg@scnresearch.com...
>>>> deowll wrote:
>>>>> "Offbreed" <offbreed_106 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>
>>>>>> About half that. You know it's possible.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not unless you know how to make the chips.
>>>>
>>>> "Half that" is a hundred years.
>>>>
>>>> In "Apoc Troll", we have someone who knows a bit about the basics of
>>>> the
>>>> advanced technology. To make a closer comparison, we would need to have
>>>> someone carry the calculator back in time. The key question would be
>>>> whether that person knew enough of the key information to start a new
>>>> technology. We had photography about 150 years ago, and that's an
>>>> important technology for transistors and ICs.
>>>>
>>>> If the politicians and businessmen of 200 years ago thought that the
>>>> development of a pocket calculator was sufficiently important and had a
>>>> near immortal informant to keep the project on track, I think it would
>>>> take less than 100 years to develop that calculator, and computers.
>>>
>>>
>>>You are trying to jump mechanical adding machines, tube computers, punch
>>>cards, and transistors. Your tech base is completely unprepared to make
>>>these things. They aren't going to run off solar cells. You don't have a
>>>clue about LCD displays.
>>>
>>>It may have been Asimov who said that any tech that is sufficiently
>>>advanced
>>>looks like magic. Even if you know it isn't magic you don't have many
>>>clues
>>>on how to do it.
>>
>> Arthur C. Clarke, as I recall.
>>>
>>>I'm not sure trying to do it this way wouldn't throw you behind because
>>>you
>>>are trying to make to many leaps over the natural steps.
>>
>> I can make all the intermediate steps on the way to the final product.
>> The fact that I have a transistorized calculator gives me an end point.
>> Instead of a series of intermediate advances, I have an end goal
>> (transistors) which will serve as a "Okay, this is fine, now on to the
>> next
>> step."
>
> And in many respects your goal is the wrong goal. You need to learn to
> crawl and you are trying to learn to fly. You need to learn all sorts of
> things that on the face of it don't have anything at all to do with the
> object you are holding in your hand. Something that could easily fill a
> large library and still leave you blank when it came to putting the
> information to use because it would assume you knew all sorts of things
> you don't know.
>
> They don't know how the chip works or how to get the materials to make it
> nor have a clue about the methods used to make it. If you tried to hand
> wire it with transistors it would take for ever if you knew what a
> transistor was. Franklin came up with positive and negative charges and
> that lightening is electricity.
>
> Best advice. Work on advancing their own tech base.
>
>
>> --
>> pyotr filipivich
>> Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
>> Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Empire From the Ashes