The End of Eternity

David Johnston wrote:

> On 23 Aug 2006 18:28:13 -0700, "Robert Carnegie"
> <rja.carnegie.RemoveThis@excite.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >David Johnston wrote:
> >> On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 14:54:32 -0700, Tim Bruening
> >> <tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >>
> >> >The ad also gave Cooper's address as "Investments Newsletter, P.O. Box
> >> >14, Denver Colorado". Why didn't the ad also list Cooper's name as an
> >> >additional flag to Harlan?
> >> >
> >> >I wonder what people would have been investing in anyway? After all,
> >> >the U.S. was in a Great Depression!
> >>
> >> The Great Depression was a good time to buy in.
> >
> >What with?
> >
> >Was it a good time to run an "Investments Newsletter"?
>
> Since it really wasn't an investments newsletter, that doesn't matter.

Cooper would need to make the newsletter realistic to avoid rousing suspicion
among the Primitives.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

David Johnston wrote:
> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:09:19 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard.DeleteThis@brazee.net>
> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
> ><tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> >
> >>Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
> >>to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
> >>million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
> >
> >While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
> >nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
> >their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
> >still be in charge.
>
> 12.5 million years? Not a bad run really. A lot of species don't
> make it that long.

Is there any technical reason why it should be impossible to have both
Eternity and Galactic Empire?
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:09:19 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard.RemoveThis@brazee.net>
wrote:

>On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
><tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
>>Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
>>to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
>>million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>
>While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
>nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
>their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
>still be in charge.

12.5 million years? Not a bad run really. A lot of species don't
make it that long.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 00:27:53 -0800, Tim Bruening
<tsbrueni.RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:


>> >Was it a good time to run an "Investments Newsletter"?
>>
>> Since it really wasn't an investments newsletter, that doesn't matter.
>
>Cooper would need to make the newsletter realistic to avoid rousing suspicion
>among the Primitives.

Suspicion of what?
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

On 18 Nov 2006 06:37:02 -0800, chornedsnorkack.DeleteThis@hushmail.com wrote:

>
>David Johnston wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 02:09:19 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard.DeleteThis@brazee.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
>> ><tsbrueni.DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>> >
>> >>Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
>> >>to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
>> >>million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>> >
>> >While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
>> >nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
>> >their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
>> >still be in charge.
>>
>> 12.5 million years? Not a bad run really. A lot of species don't
>> make it that long.
>
>Is there any technical reason why it should be impossible to have both
>Eternity and Galactic Empire?

No technical reason except that the purpose of Eternity was to strive
for a human utopia, and the smaller the scale, the easier it is to
avoid problems developing.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

On Sat, 18 Nov 2006 18:29:46 GMT, David Johnston <rgorman.TakeThisOut@block.net>
wrote:

>>Is there any technical reason why it should be impossible to have both
>>Eternity and Galactic Empire?
>
>No technical reason except that the purpose of Eternity was to strive
>for a human utopia, and the smaller the scale, the easier it is to
>avoid problems developing.

I hadn't thought about it being a religious allegory.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

In article <0nktl25rpgueqbv8s9t569binjmtuulvj9.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
David Johnston <rgorman.DeleteThis@block.net> said:

>>> Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic
>>> Empire, and lead to the extinction of the human race by keeping
>>> it trapped on Earth for 12.5 million years until intelligent
>>> species had evolved throughout the galaxy!

> 12.5 million years? Not a bad run really. A lot of species don't
> make it that long.

Yes, but that's 12.5 million years without Tang or freeze-dried ice
cream, so it hardly seems worth living.

(In fact I'm fairly sure that the Tang wasn't actually invented for
astronauts, but why let that get in the way of a good line?)

--
William December Starr <wdstarr.DeleteThis@panix.com>
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

Hils wrote:

> Darth Nub <gonzo88888.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> writes
>
> >Hi, I'm new to this NG, & I thought I'd start with a pretty irritating
> >topic - is The End of Eternity regarded as a 'legitimate' part of the
> >whole Empire & Foundation canon these days?
>
> [snip]
>
> Hi! One way to see Eternity is as a parallel universe to that of the
> robot and empire books, but not quite parallel in that they intersect in
> a few places--which would itself be consistent with the work of the
> Eternals. At the same time, the Galactic Empire may only have been able
> to develop because of the destruction of Eternity.

Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and
lead
to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for
12.5
million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the
galaxy!
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

Darth Nub wrote:

> Hi, I'm new to this NG, & I thought I'd start with a pretty irritating
> topic - is The End of Eternity regarded as a 'legitimate' part of the
> whole Empire & Foundation canon these days?
>
> I was a huge fan about a decade ago & have just come back to Asimov's
> future history - I always thought the story of the Eternals was a part
> of that universe, & still like to think so. Of course, being a time
> travel story, it existed outside it, but the references within the
> novel to the possibility of a Galactic Empire, plus the inclusion of
> the good old Neuronic Whip seemed to plant it firmly within that
> cosmos. The fable mentioned in Foundation & Earth seemed to confirm
> its inclusion, at least as a story, & time travel did occur at least
> once within the Empire, with Joseph Schwartz.
>
> Now, however, I've looked up a few sites, & it seems the general
> theory is that it's regarded as some sort of in-joke & nothing more. I
> know Asimov wasn't all that concerned with continuity or canon, but I
> bet he liked tying all the stories together, or he wouldn't have done
> it.
>
> Unfortunately, it's an unanswerable question - Asimov would no doubt
> come up with some sort of smart-arsed riddle if he was around to be
> asked, & the very nature of the story means that its events can
> technically have no influence on the others, or at least not be shown
> to.

According to Senior Computer Twissell, Eternity got started in the
following manner: A man named Brinsley Sheridan Cooper from the 78th
century was inducted into Eternity and was trained in mathematics by
Twissell, in Primitive History by Andrew Harlan, and in temporal
engineering by an unknown person. He was then sent back in time to the
24th century, where he tried to train Mallansohn in temporal engineering
so that he could invent a Temporal Field Generator. However, Mallansohn
died, so Cooper had to take his place and invent the generator himself.
After convincing others that the generator was for real, he worked with
California Institute of Technology to duplicate the generator, but
didn't
dare give them information from the future, so couldn't teach them the
mathematics needed to create Eternity. Eventually, Cooper realized that
he WAS Mallansohn, and wrote a memoir that he left in a tube of Time
stasis. In the 27th century, the tube was opened by the first Computer
and the memoir read. Eventually, Twissell was given the memoir and put
in
charge of the project to send Cooper back in time to invent the Temporal
Field Generator. The memoir, of course, gave Twissell much guidance in
how to send Cooper back in time. I wonder how the time loop ever got
started.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

Darth Nub wrote:

> Hi, I'm new to this NG, & I thought I'd start with a pretty irritating
> topic - is The End of Eternity regarded as a 'legitimate' part of the
> whole Empire & Foundation canon these days?
>
> I was a huge fan about a decade ago & have just come back to Asimov's
> future history - I always thought the story of the Eternals was a part
> of that universe, & still like to think so. Of course, being a time
> travel story, it existed outside it, but the references within the
> novel to the possibility of a Galactic Empire, plus the inclusion of
> the good old Neuronic Whip seemed to plant it firmly within that
> cosmos. The fable mentioned in Foundation & Earth seemed to confirm
> its inclusion, at least as a story, & time travel did occur at least
> once within the Empire, with Joseph Schwartz.
>
> Now, however, I've looked up a few sites, & it seems the general
> theory is that it's regarded as some sort of in-joke & nothing more. I
> know Asimov wasn't all that concerned with continuity or canon, but I
> bet he liked tying all the stories together, or he wouldn't have done
> it.
>
> Unfortunately, it's an unanswerable question - Asimov would no doubt
> come up with some sort of smart-arsed riddle if he was around to be
> asked, & the very nature of the story means that its events can
> technically have no influence on the others, or at least not be shown
> to.

Noys Lambent did influence our history, by stimulating the discovery of
nuclear fission so that humanity would be distracted from ever
discovering
Temporal Field Generators.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
> >to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
> >million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>
> While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
> nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
> their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
> still be in charge.

I have heard many politicians express opposition to wasting taxpayer
money on
space when there are so many problems at home to solve. Few politicians
can see
a decade into the future, let alone 12.5 million years!

Also, Noys said that the Eternals, by ironing out the disasters of
Reality, had
also ruled out the triumphs, such as interstellar travel. In fact,
Harlan
himself initiated a Reality Change that destroyed electrogravitic space
travel,
as a side effect of reducing drug addiction. I don't know why reducing
drug
addiction would destroy electrogravitic space travel. Maybe Hari Seldon
would
know.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

Among the most important people in Isaac Asimov's Eternal society are
the Technicians, who calculate the Minimum Necessary Change to produce
the desired Reality Changes. No Section has enough Technicians.
Eternity does have matter duplicators, which it used to create Sections
all the way to the end of the Earth. The duplicators can even duplicate
people! I suggest putting Andrew Harlan and other top Technicians into
a matter duplicator to create as many Technicians as needed.
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity 

Howard Brazee wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Aug 2006 01:13:54 -0700, Tim Bruening
> <tsbrueni DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
>
> >Noys Lambent said that Eternity had prevented the Galactic Empire, and lead
> >to the extinction of the human race by keeping it trapped on Earth for 12.5
> >million years until intelligent species had evolved throughout the galaxy!
>
> While the solution could very well be best, it doesn't fit with human
> nature. Political people who recognize the problem would change
> their goals - to produce a dominant space going civilization, and
> still be in charge.

Another issue: When Cooper found himself in the 20th century, he put an
ad in one of Harlan's favorite periodicals to attract his attention so
that Eternity could send a rescue mission. Cooper's ad read:

ALL THE
TALK
OF THE
MARKET

against the backdrop of the outline of an atomic bomb mushroom cloud.
This got Harlan's attention because of the word "ATOM" going down the
front and because of the mushroom cloud in a magazine issue dated March
28, 1932. (In the Eternity timeline, atomic bombs weren't detonated
until the 30th century!).

The ad also gave Cooper's address as "Investments Newsletter, P.O. Box
14, Denver Colorado". Why didn't the ad also list Cooper's name as an
additional flag to Harlan?

I wonder what people would have been investing in anyway? After all,
the U.S. was in a Great Depression!
 >> Stay informed about: The End of Eternity