The English Patient

Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> prosphora wrote:
>> I was referred to this group by George Dance in RAP. I am reading The
>> English Patient and would like to discuss it with people. Anyone game?
>> Love and blessings,
>> Olympiada
>
>
> Welcome. And tell us your impressions.
>
>
> Francis A. Miniter
Thank you. It is a very slow and languid book with much richness in its
depths. I have just met the Sikh solider. It is very interesting how he
sleeps outside and dismantles mines. This book is as good argument for
pacifism if I have ever seen one. The main character, the 20 year old
girl who serves as a nurse to the wounded soldiers is extremely mature.
She was in love one time and lost a child that came out of that
relationship. The impression that the book gives of war so far is that
it is senseless and pointless and just results in destruction of life
and culture. It is interesting when the sappers go into the churches
with their guns and use the sights to view the artwork. The author does
an excellent job of describing their urges to shoot just something,
anything. One picture you get is of youth caught up in war and how all
consuming it is for them. You see people losing their innocence, like
the sapper or the nurse. There is one very poignant scene in the book
where the nurse thinks a solider under her care has died and she closes
his eyes only to have him call her a bitch and say "Couldn't wait for me
to die bitch could you?" She remarked on what an awful way that was for
a man to die.
She also talked about how she talked to her unborn child while she was
working, even long after she lost it.

Olympiada
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

prosphora wrote:
> Francis A. Miniter wrote:
>
>> prosphora wrote:
>>
>>> I was referred to this group by George Dance in RAP. I am reading The
>>> English Patient and would like to discuss it with people. Anyone game?
>>> Love and blessings,
>>> Olympiada
>>
>>
>>
>> Welcome. And tell us your impressions.
>>
>>
>> Francis A. Miniter
>
> Thank you. It is a very slow and languid book with much richness in its
> depths. I have just met the Sikh solider. It is very interesting how he
> sleeps outside and dismantles mines. This book is as good argument for
> pacifism if I have ever seen one. The main character, the 20 year old
> girl who serves as a nurse to the wounded soldiers is extremely mature.
> She was in love one time and lost a child that came out of that
> relationship. The impression that the book gives of war so far is that
> it is senseless and pointless and just results in destruction of life
> and culture. It is interesting when the sappers go into the churches
> with their guns and use the sights to view the artwork. The author does
> an excellent job of describing their urges to shoot just something,
> anything. One picture you get is of youth caught up in war and how all
> consuming it is for them. You see people losing their innocence, like
> the sapper or the nurse. There is one very poignant scene in the book
> where the nurse thinks a solider under her care has died and she closes
> his eyes only to have him call her a bitch and say "Couldn't wait for me
> to die bitch could you?" She remarked on what an awful way that was for
> a man to die.
> She also talked about how she talked to her unborn child while she was
> working, even long after she lost it.
>
> Olympiada


Interesting impressions. You focused on things that I did not, and that is
fine. It shows the richness of the novel. As for the slow languidness - I
really felt that too. Indeed, the novel reads like an opium dream, which fits
because the English patient is heavily sedated with morphine. Come to think of
it, Caravaggio also takes the morphine. So that atmosphere pervades the novel.

What moved me most was the ambiguity. We have two stories and know that somehow
they are going to converge, but exactly how is kept from the reader for most of
the book, though one has suspicions. I remember when I read it thinking that
there was no way that they could successfully make this into a movie and keep
the ambiguity. I was right. The movie, while done as well as it probably could
be, lost all of the suspense that the novel's ambiguity builds.

At the time that I read it, I thought of it as a high example of romantic
fiction (like Wren's _Beau Geste_ or Byatt's _Possession_). What I did not
learn until years later, not until the power of the internet made checking such
things so simple, is that Laszlo de Almasy was an historical person, who did
indeed explore the deserts of northern Africa. The Cliftons, too, seem to be
based to some extent on historical persons, Patrick Clayton and his wife.

One thing that always intrigued me is why the author named "Caravaggio" as he
did. And then, of course, he makes him thumbless when we meet him, so he could
not be a painter.


Francis A. Miniter
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> prosphora wrote:
>> Francis A. Miniter wrote:
>>
>>> prosphora wrote:
>>>
>>>> I was referred to this group by George Dance in RAP. I am reading
>>>> The English Patient and would like to discuss it with people. Anyone
>>>> game?
>>>> Love and blessings,
>>>> Olympiada
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Welcome. And tell us your impressions.
>>>
>>>
>>> Francis A. Miniter
>>
>> Thank you. It is a very slow and languid book with much richness in
>> its depths. I have just met the Sikh solider. It is very interesting
>> how he sleeps outside and dismantles mines. This book is as good
>> argument for pacifism if I have ever seen one. The main character, the
>> 20 year old girl who serves as a nurse to the wounded soldiers is
>> extremely mature. She was in love one time and lost a child that came
>> out of that relationship. The impression that the book gives of war so
>> far is that it is senseless and pointless and just results in
>> destruction of life and culture. It is interesting when the sappers go
>> into the churches with their guns and use the sights to view the
>> artwork. The author does an excellent job of describing their urges to
>> shoot just something, anything. One picture you get is of youth caught
>> up in war and how all consuming it is for them. You see people losing
>> their innocence, like the sapper or the nurse. There is one very
>> poignant scene in the book where the nurse thinks a solider under her
>> care has died and she closes his eyes only to have him call her a
>> bitch and say "Couldn't wait for me to die bitch could you?" She
>> remarked on what an awful way that was for a man to die.
>> She also talked about how she talked to her unborn child while she was
>> working, even long after she lost it.
>>
>> Olympiada
>
>
> Interesting impressions. You focused on things that I did not, and that
> is fine. It shows the richness of the novel. As for the slow
> languidness - I really felt that too. Indeed, the novel reads like an
> opium dream, which fits because the English patient is heavily sedated
> with morphine. Come to think of it, Caravaggio also takes the
> morphine. So that atmosphere pervades the novel.
>
> What moved me most was the ambiguity. We have two stories and know that
> somehow they are going to converge, but exactly how is kept from the
> reader for most of the book, though one has suspicions. I remember when
> I read it thinking that there was no way that they could successfully
> make this into a movie and keep the ambiguity. I was right. The movie,
> while done as well as it probably could be, lost all of the suspense
> that the novel's ambiguity builds.
>
> At the time that I read it, I thought of it as a high example of
> romantic fiction (like Wren's _Beau Geste_ or Byatt's _Possession_).
> What I did not learn until years later, not until the power of the
> internet made checking such things so simple, is that Laszlo de Almasy
> was an historical person, who did indeed explore the deserts of northern
> Africa. The Cliftons, too, seem to be based to some extent on
> historical persons, Patrick Clayton and his wife.
>
> One thing that always intrigued me is why the author named "Caravaggio"
> as he did. And then, of course, he makes him thumbless when we meet
> him, so he could not be a painter.
>
>
> Francis A. Miniter
Wow! Great insight about the morphine leading to languidness.
I am getting to know Kip now and he is a great character. It is
interesting how the girl serves as a sexual object, of course. It is
interesting to see the author's erotic thoughts about her. Caravaggio
having his thumbs cut off is simply awful, horrendous. What an
imagination. As regards to it being ambiguous, someone with a MS told me
it was over his head. I remarked on this to a third party in the
conversation at that person said the first person was pulling my leg. I
don't think so. As you say, the cinema does not do justice to the book
although I loved the film myself. The next book I will complete after
this is The Greenlanders by Jane Smiley. I started that but could get
into it, maybe I will be able to after this.
Olympiada
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

prosphora wrote:

> As you say, the cinema does not do justice to the book
> although I loved the film myself.

I read the book many years ago, and don't remember enough detail to
discuss it intelligently, but I do remember being very disappointed with
the movie. However, if you liked that book, you would probably also
enjoy Ondaatje's earlier 'In the Skin of a Lion'.
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

Paul Ilechko wrote:
> prosphora wrote:
>
>> As you say, the cinema does not do justice to the book although I
>> loved the film myself.
>
> I read the book many years ago, and don't remember enough detail to
> discuss it intelligently, but I do remember being very disappointed with
> the movie. However, if you liked that book, you would probably also
> enjoy Ondaatje's earlier 'In the Skin of a Lion'.
Is that the one about the Sri Lankan girl? I saw it at the library on...
Wednesday? But decided not to buy it. The Greenlanders or Middlesex
comes next on my reading list, I already dipped my fingers into both of
those and I own both. Oh yes and The Witching Hour by Anne Rice. Which
do you recommend next? I loved the movie. I don't see what people's
problem with it is. It has beautiful cinematography. My father is a film
buff, he and I actually talked about him joining a film club today. He
actually works in part to be able to buy new dvds! He told me the most
recent dvd he bought is The Wire based on the show. Heard of that?

I was first exposed to cinematography in grade school, meaning making
films. I should have pursued a career in cinematography but I have my
digital photography instead. I didn't even watch one of the last five
dvds I rented from the library: American Beauty, Traffik, The Sweet
Hereafter, Thirteen and Black Hawk Down. My dad didn't understand why I
didn't watch The Sweet Hereafter. I didn't want to get caught up in the
drama.

My dad is my teacher when it comes to film. He is absolutely great.
Books as well. My dad is very literate. He loves film and books and he
was a journalist, that's his degree. He is in his 50s too. He taught me
about film and books. I had full intellectual freedom from age 10 on. I
love this group already. Cool.

Olympiada
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

prosphora wrote:
> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>> prosphora wrote:
>>
>>> As you say, the cinema does not do justice to the book although I
>>> loved the film myself.
>>
>> I read the book many years ago, and don't remember enough detail to
>> discuss it intelligently, but I do remember being very disappointed
>> with the movie. However, if you liked that book, you would probably
>> also enjoy Ondaatje's earlier 'In the Skin of a Lion'.

> Is that the one about the Sri Lankan girl? I saw it at the library on...
> Wednesday? But decided not to buy it.

No, it's set in Toronto



> The Greenlanders or Middlesex
> comes next on my reading list, I already dipped my fingers into both of
> those and I own both. Oh yes and The Witching Hour by Anne Rice. Which
> do you recommend next?

Middlesex is very good, haven't read the others.
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

Paul Ilechko wrote:
> prosphora wrote:
>> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>>> prosphora wrote:
>>>
>>>> As you say, the cinema does not do justice to the book although I
>>>> loved the film myself.
>>>
>>> I read the book many years ago, and don't remember enough detail to
>>> discuss it intelligently, but I do remember being very disappointed
>>> with the movie. However, if you liked that book, you would probably
>>> also enjoy Ondaatje's earlier 'In the Skin of a Lion'.
>
>> Is that the one about the Sri Lankan girl? I saw it at the library
>> on... Wednesday? But decided not to buy it.
>
> No, it's set in Toronto
>
>
>
>> The Greenlanders or Middlesex comes next on my reading list, I already
>> dipped my fingers into both of those and I own both. Oh yes and The
>> Witching Hour by Anne Rice. Which do you recommend next?
>
> Middlesex is very good, haven't read the others.
>
>
>
But does it have a girl from Sri Lanka in it who goes back to be an
anthropologist? Ok. Middlesex. I will contemplate that.
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

prosphora wrote:

> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>
>> prosphora wrote:
>>
>>> As you say, the cinema does not do justice to the book although I
>>> loved the film myself.
>>
>>
>> I read the book many years ago, and don't remember enough detail to
>> discuss it intelligently, but I do remember being very disappointed
>> with the movie. However, if you liked that book, you would probably
>> also enjoy Ondaatje's earlier 'In the Skin of a Lion'.
>
> Is that the one about the Sri Lankan girl? I saw it at the library on...
> Wednesday? But decided not to buy it. <snip>
>
> Olympiada


No, you are thinking of "Anil's Ghost". I have read 80% of it, but cannot
finish it. It will not hold my attention.


Francis A. Miniter
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> prosphora wrote:
>
>> Paul Ilechko wrote:
>>
>>> prosphora wrote:
>>>
>>>> As you say, the cinema does not do justice to the book although I
>>>> loved the film myself.
>>>
>>>
>>> I read the book many years ago, and don't remember enough detail to
>>> discuss it intelligently, but I do remember being very disappointed
>>> with the movie. However, if you liked that book, you would probably
>>> also enjoy Ondaatje's earlier 'In the Skin of a Lion'.
>>
>> Is that the one about the Sri Lankan girl? I saw it at the library
>> on... Wednesday? But decided not to buy it. <snip>
>>
>> Olympiada
>
>
> No, you are thinking of "Anil's Ghost". I have read 80% of it, but
> cannot finish it. It will not hold my attention.
>
>
> Francis A. Miniter
Interesting. I decided not to buy it because I have so many unread books
at home. Oh yeah, add Women in Love to the mix in terms of books I own
that I have opened up with the intention to read. You are very literate.
I am impressed. What a great newsgroup!
Olympiada
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

On Jun 17, 11:44 pm, "Francis A. Miniter" <mini....TakeThisOut@attglobalZZ.net>
wrote:
>
> No, you are thinking of "Anil's Ghost". I have read 80% of it, but cannot
> finish it. It will not hold my attention.

I can't recall what book it was, but I once heard a reading of a
memoir by Ondaatje of his family in Sri Lanka that was rather
charming.

T.

PS: I thought the best part of the novel *THE ENGLISH PATIENT* was the
sense of place via painted Tuscan landscapes which did not end up in
the movie. A shame, that.
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

Mistress OUYA wrote:

> Interesting. I decided not to buy it because I have so many unread books
> at home. Oh yeah, add Women in Love to the mix in terms of books I own
> that I have opened up with the intention to read. You are very literate.
> I am impressed. What a great newsgroup!


If you have to read DHL, I would stick with Sons and Lovers.
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

On Jun 18, 4:23 am, Paul Ilechko <pilec... DeleteThis @patmedia.net> wrote:
> Mistress OUYA wrote:
> > Interesting. I decided not to buy it because I have so many unread books
> > at home. Oh yeah, add Women in Love to the mix in terms of books I own
> > that I have opened up with the intention to read. You are very literate.
> > I am impressed. What a great newsgroup!
>
> If you have to read DHL, I would stick with Sons and Lovers.


_Women in Love_ is undoubtedly great, but my personal favorite is _The
Rainbow_.

That, and the very short and strange _The Man Who Died_.


David Loftus
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient 

Paul Ilechko wrote:
> Mistress OUYA wrote:
>
>> Interesting. I decided not to buy it because I have so many unread
>> books at home. Oh yeah, add Women in Love to the mix in terms of books
>> I own that I have opened up with the intention to read. You are very
>> literate. I am impressed. What a great newsgroup!
>
>
> If you have to read DHL, I would stick with Sons and Lovers.
I don't have to read DHL. I don't have Sons and Lovers.
 >> Stay informed about: The English Patient