Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian

"Anthony Cerrato" <tcerrato.DeleteThis@optonline.net> wrote in message news:<GpxYc.12348$Es2.6872789@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
 > "Will" <No_EMail_Thanks.DeleteThis@home.com> wrote in message
 > news:trp4j0t40mtkuvijl8oho7o780hv72s263@4ax.com...
  > > On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:03:00 +0100, Jim Smith
  > > <jim.DeleteThis@jimsmith.demon.co.uk> wrote:
  > >
   > > >Today's Guardian (26 Aug) has a short extract from the
 > Algebraist here.
<SNIP>
 > good but I
  > > love the Culture more.....yeah I know he's finished with
 > it, but I can
  > > hope.......
  > >
  > > W
 >
 > Finished with it? Where'd you get that idea? Just cause the
 > last Culture book jumped ahead a zillion years in the
 > afterward to when the Culture was history, don't at all
<SNIP>

*Was* the Culture necessarily history? I think the quote was something
like: "the civilisation which was once known as 'The Culture'". This
doesn't preclude it being known as Something Else one grand cycle
later.
I'd be surprised if IMB doesn't go back to the Culture at some point.
I think he likes it too much to leave it alone forever. I for one hope
we see it again at some point but I'd like to see something more
UoW/PoG than Excession. Excession to me was IMB's attempt at 'harder'
sci-fi. Not bad, but not 2001 either and it came over as a lot more
sterile than the other Culture books. I'd like to see something that's
more concerned with the 'humanity' of the characters which works on
more and deeper levels.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

Paul Duggan wrote:
 > "Anthony Cerrato" <tcerrato.DeleteThis@optonline.net> wrote in message
 > news:<GpxYc.12348$Es2.6872789@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
  >> "Will" <No_EMail_Thanks.DeleteThis@home.com> wrote in message
  >> news:trp4j0t40mtkuvijl8oho7o780hv72s263@4ax.com...
   >>> On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:03:00 +0100, Jim Smith
   >>> <jim.DeleteThis@jimsmith.demon.co.uk> wrote:
   >>>
   >>>> Today's Guardian (26 Aug) has a short extract from the
  >> Algebraist here.
 > <SNIP>
  >> good but I
   >>> love the Culture more.....yeah I know he's finished with
  >> it, but I can
   >>> hope.......
   >>>
   >>> W
  >>
  >> Finished with it? Where'd you get that idea? Just cause the
  >> last Culture book jumped ahead a zillion years in the
  >> afterward to when the Culture was history, don't at all
 > <SNIP>
 >
 > *Was* the Culture necessarily history? I think the quote was something
 > like: "the civilisation which was once known as 'The Culture'". This
 > doesn't preclude it being known as Something Else one grand cycle
 > later.
 > I'd be surprised if IMB doesn't go back to the Culture at some point.
 > I think he likes it too much to leave it alone forever.

The history of returning to earlier work is not great in my experience. I
can think of two examples: Asimov returning to the Foundation trilogy with
mixed results and Clarke returning to Rama, which was ultimately pretty
dire. Maybe there are examples of success out there?

I just hope he goes on and on every few books


 >I for one hope
 > we see it again at some point but I'd like to see something more
 > UoW/PoG than Excession. Excession to me was IMB's attempt at 'harder'
 > sci-fi. Not bad, but not 2001 either and it came over as a lot more
 > sterile than the other Culture books. I'd like to see something that's
 > more concerned with the 'humanity' of the characters which works on
 > more and deeper levels.

Fully agree with that. I'm just re-reading Excession again and still find
it difficult to link the human and Mind plot threads running through the
book.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

Edward wrote:
 > Paul Duggan wrote:
 >
  >>"Anthony Cerrato" <tcerrato.RemoveThis@optonline.net> wrote in message
  >>news:<GpxYc.12348$Es2.6872789@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
  >>
   >>>"Will" <No_EMail_Thanks.RemoveThis@home.com> wrote in message
   >>>news:trp4j0t40mtkuvijl8oho7o780hv72s263@4ax.com...
   >>>
   >>>>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:03:00 +0100, Jim Smith
   >>>><jim.RemoveThis@jimsmith.demon.co.uk> wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>>
   >>>>>Today's Guardian (26 Aug) has a short extract from the
   >>>
   >>> Algebraist here.
  >>
  >><SNIP>
  >>
   >>> good but I
   >>>
   >>>>love the Culture more.....yeah I know he's finished with
   >>>
   >>> it, but I can
   >>>
   >>>>hope.......
   >>>>
   >>>>W
   >>>
   >>>Finished with it? Where'd you get that idea? Just cause the
   >>>last Culture book jumped ahead a zillion years in the
   >>>afterward to when the Culture was history, don't at all
  >>
  >><SNIP>
  >>
  >>*Was* the Culture necessarily history? I think the quote was something
  >>like: "the civilisation which was once known as 'The Culture'". This
  >>doesn't preclude it being known as Something Else one grand cycle
  >>later.
  >>I'd be surprised if IMB doesn't go back to the Culture at some point.
  >>I think he likes it too much to leave it alone forever.
 >
 >
 > The history of returning to earlier work is not great in my experience. I
 > can think of two examples: Asimov returning to the Foundation trilogy with
 > mixed results and Clarke returning to Rama, which was ultimately pretty
 > dire. Maybe there are examples of success out there?
 >
<snip>
ACCs Rama follow-ups were co-written with Gentry Lee, as in 'who the
hell is Gentry Lee?'. 'Rendezvous With Rama' is a great book, but the
negative reviews of the follow-ups have meant that I haven't read them.

Halmyre<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

I thought this was the whole idea of the book. The humans living on their
level, while the Minds are existing on a complete different level. You can
also see this in the POG book, the Minds are playing chess with
civilisations, while the human is the pawn who, ironically, is playing chess
within a civilisation. All the while the Minds are manipulating the humans
in order to play their chess game. I think thats the crux of both Ex and
POG.

Hans.

 > Fully agree with that. I'm just re-reading Excession again and still find
 > it difficult to link the human and Mind plot threads running through the
 > book.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

Halmyre wrote:
> Edward wrote:
>> Paul Duggan wrote:
>>
>>>> it, but I can
>>
>>
> <snip>
> ACCs Rama follow-ups were co-written with Gentry Lee, as in 'who the
> hell is Gentry Lee?'. 'Rendezvous With Rama' is a great book, but the
> negative reviews of the follow-ups have meant that I haven't read
> them.
>
> Halmyre

I know they were co-authored but it's ACC's name that gets the much bigger
font. Unfortunately, I bought and read them all.
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

Both threads are relevant to the outcome of POG because the game playing
does not go according to the Mind's plans. I think you could delete the
human bits from Excession because they are pretty well irrelevant to
"dealing" with the excession. Humans play no part in that at all. The book
would be a lot shorter and less interesting though.

Sprant Flere-Imsaho Wu-Handrahen Xato Trabiti wrote:
 > I thought this was the whole idea of the book. The humans living on
 > their level, while the Minds are existing on a complete different
 > level. You can also see this in the POG book, the Minds are playing
 > chess with civilisations, while the human is the pawn who,
 > ironically, is playing chess within a civilisation. All the while the
 > Minds are manipulating the humans in order to play their chess game.
 > I think thats the crux of both Ex and POG.
 >
 > Hans.
 >
  >> Fully agree with that. I'm just re-reading Excession again and
  >> still find it difficult to link the human and Mind plot threads
  >> running through the book.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

In article <ci7fsd$rhr$1@sparta.btinternet.com>,
edwardthornton.TakeThisOut@btinternet.com (Edward) wrote:

 > Paul Duggan wrote:
  > >I for one hope
  > > we see it again at some point but I'd like to see something more
  > > UoW/PoG than Excession. Excession to me was IMB's attempt at 'harder'
  > > sci-fi. Not bad, but not 2001 either and it came over as a lot more
  > > sterile than the other Culture books. I'd like to see something that's
  > > more concerned with the 'humanity' of the characters which works on
  > > more and deeper levels.
 >
 > Fully agree with that. I'm just re-reading Excession again and still
 > find
 > it difficult to link the human and Mind plot threads running through the
 > book.

I found eventually that taking notes, and drawing a diagram with the
various links between the minds and humans involved, was the key to
actually understanding the plot properly.

--
Vince<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

On Tue, 14 Sep 2004 19:40:49 GMT, Halmyre
<robert.DeleteThis@SPAMLESShalmyre.abel.co.uk> wrote:

><snip>
>ACCs Rama follow-ups were co-written with Gentry Lee, as in 'who the
>hell is Gentry Lee?'. 'Rendezvous With Rama' is a great book, but the
>negative reviews of the follow-ups have meant that I haven't read them.
>
>Halmyre

The "grand" finale to the Rama series was so disappointing it remains
the only book I have literally thrown out of a window in disgust.
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

"Vince Bowdren" <vince-removethis.DeleteThis@jobstream.com> wrote in
message news:memo.20040915103704.292A@blah.jobstream.com...
 > In article <ci7fsd$rhr$1@sparta.btinternet.com>,
 > edwardthornton.DeleteThis@btinternet.com (Edward) wrote:
 >
  > > Paul Duggan wrote:
   > > >I for one hope
   > > > we see it again at some point but I'd like to see
something more
   > > > UoW/PoG than Excession. Excession to me was IMB's
attempt at 'harder'
   > > > sci-fi. Not bad, but not 2001 either and it came over
as a lot more
   > > > sterile than the other Culture books. I'd like to see
something that's
   > > > more concerned with the 'humanity' of the characters
which works on
   > > > more and deeper levels.
  > >
  > > Fully agree with that. I'm just re-reading Excession
again and still
  > > find
  > > it difficult to link the human and Mind plot threads
running through the
  > > book.
 >
 > I found eventually that taking notes, and drawing a
diagram with the
 > various links between the minds and humans involved, was
the key to
 > actually understanding the plot properly.

Yeah, but one shouldn't have to do that or read it 20 times
to understand a books plot. Excession had some great ideas
and some clarifying info on how Culture operates...but as a
story, it left a lot to be desired. And I wasn't that crazy
'bout the ending either--still have no definite idea on what
the hell was going on. But I do love Culture books!
....tonyC

 > --
 > Vince<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:11:03 +0000, Anthony Cerrato wrote:

 > Yeah, but one shouldn't have to do that or read it 20 times to understand
 > a books plot. Excession had some great ideas and some clarifying info on
 > how Culture operates...but as a story, it left a lot to be desired. And I
 > wasn't that crazy 'bout the ending either--still have no definite idea on
 > what the hell was going on. But I do love Culture books! ...tonyC

Perhaps I didn't think hard enough to see the difficulties, but I didn't
have any problems with Excession. It was better on the second read,
however. I think it's my favourite Banks SF novel too.

Jeremy<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

"Jeremy Sanders" <jeremy+plusnews@jeremysanders.net> wrote
in message
news:pan.2004.09.17.09.36.39.666744@jeremysanders.net...
 > On Thu, 16 Sep 2004 17:11:03 +0000, Anthony Cerrato wrote:
 >
  > > Yeah, but one shouldn't have to do that or read it 20
times to understand
  > > a books plot. Excession had some great ideas and some
clarifying info on
  > > how Culture operates...but as a story, it left a lot to
be desired. And I
  > > wasn't that crazy 'bout the ending either--still have no
definite idea on
  > > what the hell was going on. But I do love Culture books!
...tonyC
 >
 > Perhaps I didn't think hard enough to see the
difficulties, but I didn't
 > have any problems with Excession. It was better on the
second read,
 > however. I think it's my favourite Banks SF novel too.
 >
 > Jeremy

It may not be the book--sometimes I think I am getting more
and more stupid with age. True! I eventually will read
the book again and this time I'm really taking notes!
Regards, ...tonyC<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

"Halmyre" <robert DeleteThis @SPAMLESShalmyre.abel.co.uk> wrote in message
news:5PH1d.1228$8u5.702@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
>
>
> Edward wrote:
> > Paul Duggan wrote:
> >
> >>"Anthony Cerrato" <tcerrato DeleteThis @optonline.net> wrote in message
> >>news:<GpxYc.12348$Es2.6872789@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
> >>
> >>>"Will" <No_EMail_Thanks DeleteThis @home.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:trp4j0t40mtkuvijl8oho7o780hv72s263@4ax.com...
> >>>
> >>>>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:03:00 +0100, Jim Smith
> >>>><jim DeleteThis @jimsmith.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Today's Guardian (26 Aug) has a short extract from the
> >>>
> >>> Algebraist here.
> >>
> >><SNIP>
> >>
> >>> good but I
> >>>
> >>>>love the Culture more.....yeah I know he's finished with
> >>>
> >>> it, but I can
> >>>
> >>>>hope.......
> >>>>
> >>>>W
> >>>
> >>>Finished with it? Where'd you get that idea? Just cause the
> >>>last Culture book jumped ahead a zillion years in the
> >>>afterward to when the Culture was history, don't at all
> >>
> >><SNIP>
> >>
> >>*Was* the Culture necessarily history? I think the quote was something
> >>like: "the civilisation which was once known as 'The Culture'". This
> >>doesn't preclude it being known as Something Else one grand cycle
> >>later.
> >>I'd be surprised if IMB doesn't go back to the Culture at some point.
> >>I think he likes it too much to leave it alone forever.
> >
> >
> > The history of returning to earlier work is not great in my experience.
I
> > can think of two examples: Asimov returning to the Foundation trilogy
with
> > mixed results and Clarke returning to Rama, which was ultimately pretty
> > dire. Maybe there are examples of success out there?
> >
> <snip>
> ACCs Rama follow-ups were co-written with Gentry Lee, as in 'who the
> hell is Gentry Lee?'. 'Rendezvous With Rama' is a great book, but the
> negative reviews of the follow-ups have meant that I haven't read them.

A wise decision. They're terrible.

BaldiePete
--
Lumpy Misshapen White Person
Election ! What Election ????
Where did you come from ?
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian 

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 23:04:22 +0100, "BaldiePete"
<baldiepete1961NOSPAM.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>"Halmyre" <robert.DeleteThis@SPAMLESShalmyre.abel.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:5PH1d.1228$8u5.702@newsfe2-win.ntli.net...
>>
>>
>> Edward wrote:
>> > Paul Duggan wrote:
>> >
>> >>"Anthony Cerrato" <tcerrato.DeleteThis@optonline.net> wrote in message
>> >>news:<GpxYc.12348$Es2.6872789@news4.srv.hcvlny.cv.net>...
>> >>
>> >>>"Will" <No_EMail_Thanks.DeleteThis@home.com> wrote in message
>> >>>news:trp4j0t40mtkuvijl8oho7o780hv72s263@4ax.com...
>> >>>
>> >>>>On Thu, 26 Aug 2004 16:03:00 +0100, Jim Smith
>> >>>><jim.DeleteThis@jimsmith.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>>Today's Guardian (26 Aug) has a short extract from the
>> >>>
>> >>> Algebraist here.
>> >>
>> >><SNIP>
>> >>
>> >>> good but I
>> >>>
>> >>>>love the Culture more.....yeah I know he's finished with
>> >>>
>> >>> it, but I can
>> >>>
>> >>>>hope.......
>> >>>>
>> >>>>W
>> >>>
>> >>>Finished with it? Where'd you get that idea? Just cause the
>> >>>last Culture book jumped ahead a zillion years in the
>> >>>afterward to when the Culture was history, don't at all
>> >>
>> >><SNIP>
>> >>
>> >>*Was* the Culture necessarily history? I think the quote was something
>> >>like: "the civilisation which was once known as 'The Culture'". This
>> >>doesn't preclude it being known as Something Else one grand cycle
>> >>later.
>> >>I'd be surprised if IMB doesn't go back to the Culture at some point.
>> >>I think he likes it too much to leave it alone forever.
>> >
>> >
>> > The history of returning to earlier work is not great in my experience.
>I
>> > can think of two examples: Asimov returning to the Foundation trilogy
>with
>> > mixed results and Clarke returning to Rama, which was ultimately pretty
>> > dire. Maybe there are examples of success out there?
>> >
>> <snip>
>> ACCs Rama follow-ups were co-written with Gentry Lee, as in 'who the
>> hell is Gentry Lee?'. 'Rendezvous With Rama' is a great book, but the
>> negative reviews of the follow-ups have meant that I haven't read them.
>
>A wise decision. They're terrible.
>
The only one of the ACC collaborations which is worth reading is the
one with Baxter - and even that wasn't impressive enough for me to
remember the title.

--
Don Aitken

Mail to the addresses given in the headers is no longer being
read. To mail me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com".
 >> Stay informed about: Excerpt from _The Algebraist_ in the Guardian