The Two Gelmirs

Prai Jei wrote:
> Steve Morrison set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
> continuum:
>
>> How could there have been two Gelmirs? Tolkien makes it very clear
>> that Elvish names are never, ever repeated; he found it necessary to
>> write an entire essay about Glorfindel explaining how Glorfindel of
>> Gondolin could be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell. And
>> yet two distinct elves in the /Silm/ had the name Gelmir. The first
>> was the brother of Gwindor of Nargothrond, who was captured in the
>> Bragollach and murdered at the beginning of the Nirnaeth. The second
>> was the companion of Arminas, who met Tuor and showed him the Gate
>> of the Noldor (and later met Túrin in Nargothrond). The Index to the
>> /Silm/ even has two entries under "Gelmir". Any thoughts on how to
>> resolve the discrepancy?
>
> Did their lives overlap? If not then one was the reincarnation of the other
> as with Glorfindel.

The second Gelmir said he and Arminas "were of Angrod's people, and we
have wandered far since the Dagor Bragollach". That means his life did
overlap with the other Gelmir's.
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:20:15 +0000, Prai Jei
wrote:

>Steve Morrison set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>continuum:
>
>> How could there have been two Gelmirs? Tolkien makes it very clear
>> that Elvish names are never, ever repeated; he found it necessary to
>> write an entire essay about Glorfindel explaining how Glorfindel of
>> Gondolin could be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell. And
>> yet two distinct elves in the /Silm/ had the name Gelmir. The first
>> was the brother of Gwindor of Nargothrond, who was captured in the
>> Bragollach and murdered at the beginning of the Nirnaeth. The second
>> was the companion of Arminas, who met Tuor and showed him the Gate
>> of the Noldor (and later met Túrin in Nargothrond). The Index to the
>> /Silm/ even has two entries under "Gelmir". Any thoughts on how to
>> resolve the discrepancy?
>
>Did their lives overlap? If not then one was the reincarnation of the other
>as with Glorfindel.

Where does Tolkien say that elvish names are never repeated?


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
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On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:20:15 +0000, Prai Jei
wrote:

>Steve Morrison set the following eddies spiralling through the space-time
>continuum:
>
>> How could there have been two Gelmirs? Tolkien makes it very clear
>> that Elvish names are never, ever repeated; he found it necessary to
>> write an entire essay about Glorfindel explaining how Glorfindel of
>> Gondolin could be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell. And
>> yet two distinct elves in the /Silm/ had the name Gelmir. The first
>> was the brother of Gwindor of Nargothrond, who was captured in the
>> Bragollach and murdered at the beginning of the Nirnaeth. The second
>> was the companion of Arminas, who met Tuor and showed him the Gate
>> of the Noldor (and later met Túrin in Nargothrond). The Index to the
>> /Silm/ even has two entries under "Gelmir". Any thoughts on how to
>> resolve the discrepancy?
>
>Did their lives overlap? If not then one was the reincarnation of the other
>as with Glorfindel.

Where does Tolkien say that elvish names are never repeated?


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: The Two Gelmirs 

On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:16:15 -0500, Steve Morrison wrote:

>How could there have been two Gelmirs? Tolkien makes it very clear
>that Elvish names are never, ever repeated; he found it necessary to
>write an entire essay about Glorfindel explaining how Glorfindel of
>Gondolin could be the same person as Glorfindel of Rivendell. And
>yet two distinct elves in the /Silm/ had the name Gelmir. The first
>was the brother of Gwindor of Nargothrond, who was captured in the
>Bragollach and murdered at the beginning of the Nirnaeth. The second
>was the companion of Arminas, who met Tuor and showed him the Gate
>of the Noldor (and later met Túrin in Nargothrond). The Index to the
>/Silm/ even has two entries under "Gelmir". Any thoughts on how to
>resolve the discrepancy?

Where does Tolkien say that Elvish names are never repeated?

(sorry if this appears duplicated, but I'm writing it in alt.books.inklings,
and the one I replied to had follow-ups set excluding it).



--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.goodreads.com/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: The Two Gelmirs 

In message
Steve Hayes spoke these staves:
>
> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:16:15 -0500, Steve Morrison
> wrote:
>>
>> How could there have been two Gelmirs? Tolkien makes it very clear
>> that Elvish names are never, ever repeated;

<snip>

> Where does Tolkien say that Elvish names are never repeated?

I believe that he says something about the repetition of Elvish names
in the Glorfindel essays published in /The Peoples of Middle-earth/,
but as I recall it he doesn't say that Elvish names are /never/
repeated, but that /Glorfindel/ is such an unusual name that that
particular name would never be repeated (or words to that effect).

Gelmir may be, in Tolkien's mind, a less unusual Elvish name that he,
if my memory is not faulty, would consider legitimate for repetition.

(I've got to get to a meeting, but I'll try to find the quotation when
I get back)

--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

The significant problems we have cannot be solved at the
same level of thinking with which we created them.
- Albert Einstein
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"Troels Forchhammer" skrev i meddelelsen


> In message
> Steve Hayes spoke these staves:
>> On Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:16:15 -0500, Steve Morrison
>> wrote:

>>> How could there have been two Gelmirs? Tolkien makes it very clear
>>> that Elvish names are never, ever repeated;

>> Where does Tolkien say that Elvish names are never repeated?

> I believe that he says something about the repetition of Elvish names
> in the Glorfindel essays published in /The Peoples of Middle-earth/,
> but as I recall it he doesn't say that Elvish names are /never/
> repeated, but that /Glorfindel/ is such an unusual name that that
> particular name would never be repeated (or words to that effect).

This would be a circular definition. Or do you mean unusual in its
form or meaning, so that if there were an large number of Glorfindels the
name would still be defined as unusual? Like eg. a Norse tribe where
everybody had a traditional Norse name save for a hundred people named
Pádraig Mohammed Yang?

> Gelmir may be, in Tolkien's mind, a less unusual Elvish name that he,
> if my memory is not faulty, would consider legitimate for repetition.

It would be very difficult to avoid reuse of names, since it cannot be
expected that the parents and kin of a newborn would know every extant and
past Elvish name. Particularly during the Exile in the First Age, where
tribes and Houses were scattered. Otherwise there would have to be some
sort of magical-style knowledge, that if a proposed name were already in use
in the other end of Beleriand or in Aman, it would be flagged as such to all
parents with a new baby in want of a name. Also Elvish names were not
generally non-words as is the case with many of our names, but words and
word compounds of their daily language. Unless the Eldarin languages had
enormously rich vocabularies there would be a limit to the number of names
that could be formed, even with compounds - not all words are of course fit
for naming, save epithets given to enemies...
It might be argued that within a House, given names would not be reused,
to avoid confusion. It might also be argued that for the purpose of
uniqueness, the full name includes a House name somewhat like the Roman
nomen gentile as well as a patro- or matronym. But I haven't the essay
before me.

Cuervo.
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> I believe that he says something about the repetition of Elvish names
> in the Glorfindel essays published in /The Peoples of Middle-earth/,
> but as I recall it he doesn't say that Elvish names are /never/
> repeated, but that /Glorfindel/ is such an unusual name that that
> particular name would never be repeated (or words to that effect).
>
> Gelmir may be, in Tolkien's mind, a less unusual Elvish name that he,
> if my memory is not faulty, would consider legitimate for repetition.
>
> (I've got to get to a meeting, but I'll try to find the quotation when
> I get back)

I've looked it up, and here is the quote:

This difficulty, far more serious than the linguistic one, may
be considered first. At any rate what at first sight may seem
the simplest solution must be abandoned: sc. that we have
merely a reduplication of names, and that Glorfindel of
Gondolin and Glorfindel of Rivendell were different persons.
This repetition of so striking a name, though possible, would
not be credible. No other major character in the Elvish legends
as reported in /The Silmarillion/ and /The Lord of the Rings/
has a name borne by another Elvish person of importance. Also
it may be found that acceptance of the identity of Glorfindel
of old and of the Third Age will actually explain what is said
of him and improve the story.

Perhaps then he didn't consider the Gelmirs to be sufficently
important characters for the repetition of names to matter? It
sounds more plausible than the only other answer I've thought of,
i.e. that "Gelmir" was presumably a Sindarin translation of an
orginally Quenya name, and perhaps two distinct Quenya names
might still have identical translations in another language.

And I agree with Raven that it isn't too plausible that *no*
two Elves ever had the same name, since that would require all
Elvish parents to have access to some web site where all of the
previously used names were listed! Although I still wonder how
they were able to tell whether their newborns would grow up to be
major characters or not. <G>
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On 11/28/2011 10:01 PM, Steve Morrison wrote:
> And I agree with Raven that it isn't too plausible that *no*
> two Elves ever had the same name, since that would require all
> Elvish parents to have access to some web site where all of the
> previously used names were listed! Although I still wonder how
> they were able to tell whether their newborns would grow up to be
> major characters or not. <G>

Elves receive use-names that differ from the names their mothers and
fathers give them. Most of the time we only hear the use-name. A notable
instance is Fëanor, who at birth was named Curufinwë, but whose mother
named him Fëanor, "spirit of fire."

But since Curufinwë means "skillful (son of) Finwë," one wonders how
Finwë knew that Fëanor would be skillful...

And by the way, Curufinwë also named his fifth son Curufinwë, which
became Curufin in Sindarin. I'm pretty sure Finwë didn't think himself
unimportant enough that he could name another after himself. I imagine
that the restriction on duplicate names only applies to use-names that
end up in tales.

--
David Trimboli
http://www.trimboli.name/
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In message
Steve Morrison spoke these staves:
>
> Troels Forchhammer wrote:
>>
>> I believe that he says something about the repetition of Elvish
>> names in the Glorfindel essays published in /The Peoples of
>> Middle-earth/, but as I recall it he doesn't say that Elvish
>> names are /never/ repeated, but that /Glorfindel/ is such an
>> unusual name that that particular name would never be repeated
>> (or words to that effect).
>>
>> Gelmir may be, in Tolkien's mind, a less unusual Elvish name that
>> he, if my memory is not faulty, would consider legitimate for
>> repetition.
>>
>> (I've got to get to a meeting, but I'll try to find the quotation
>> when I get back)
>
> I've looked it up, and here is the quote:

Thanks, Steve -- I knew there was something I wanted to return to, but
I couldn't find what it was

<snip quotation>

> Perhaps then he didn't consider the Gelmirs to be sufficently
> important characters for the repetition of names to matter?

And / or the name _Gelmir_ to be less striking than _Glorfindel_ (at
least _I_ find _Glorfindel_ to be the more striking of the two names .
.. . by a considerable margin).

> It sounds more plausible than the only other answer I've thought
> of, i.e. that "Gelmir" was presumably a Sindarin translation of
> an orginally Quenya name, and perhaps two distinct Quenya names
> might still have identical translations in another language.
>
> And I agree with Raven that it isn't too plausible that *no*
> two Elves ever had the same name, since that would require all
> Elvish parents to have access to some web site where all of the
> previously used names were listed! Although I still wonder how
> they were able to tell whether their newborns would grow up to be
> major characters or not. <G>

As David points out, the Elves had several names in their lives. They
all received a mother-name and a father-name, and many of them chose a
self-name as well, or received some kind of by-name from their
environs. Some of these names were certainly repeated -- Fëanor used
his own father-name, Curufinwë, as the father-name of one of his sons,
possibly because he had himself become known by his mother-name
(originally Fëanáro). I think most of this is dealt with in the
Shibboleth of Fëanor (also from PoMe).

Most Eldar, however, were known primarily by one name (Finrod Felagund
being one of the exceptions), and it appears that this name is the
relevant one where Tolkien wouldn't repeat such a striking name as
Glorfindel.

--
Troels Forchhammer <troelsfo(a)googlewave.com>
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Lo! we have gathered, and we have spent, and now the time
of payment draws near.
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:

> As David points out, the Elves had several names in their lives. They
> all received a mother-name and a father-name, and many of them chose a
> self-name as well, or received some kind of by-name from their
> environs. Some of these names were certainly repeated -- Fëanor used
> his own father-name, Curufinwë, as the father-name of one of his sons,
> possibly because he had himself become known by his mother-name
> (originally Fëanáro). I think most of this is dealt with in the
> Shibboleth of Fëanor (also from PoMe).
>
> Most Eldar, however, were known primarily by one name (Finrod Felagund
> being one of the exceptions), and it appears that this name is the
> relevant one where Tolkien wouldn't repeat such a striking name as
> Glorfindel.

I've been reading the section "Of Naming"* from "Laws and Customs", and
the situation is (as you say) very complicated; that's why I've taken
so long to reply to David's post. Tolkien says there that Fëanor was
originally named Finwion (or Finwë in the older draft), but his father
altered the name to Curufinwë when his talents became apparent. Also
the "chosen name" was considered private in the sense that only one's
parents, siblings, and very close friends were allowed to use it; it
was like the rest of a Noldo's property. It's possible that they would
have avoided repeating chosen names for that reason. But I agree that
Tolkien's reluctance to repeat Elvish names only applies to the names
by which characters were commonly known (and in fact is more a story-
external rule than a story-internal one). I hope to write a bit more
later but there isn't enough time tonight.

* This comprises pp. 214-7 of /Morgoth's Ring/ (at least in my copy).
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