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Xah Lee

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Since: Jan 02, 2007
Posts: 3



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 6:39 am
Post subject: Gulliver's Travels; on Struldbrugs
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Just read Gulliver's Travels, part 3 chatper 10.
( http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt3ch10.html )

Where, they have this “Struldbrugs”, which is a immortal, but!

And here's my comment on this chapter:

「• Swift's take on immortality is a sad one, with dotage being its
fatal disease. Granted that he does a pessimistic take, but his
resolution is rather unsatisfactory. First of all, implied in the word
immortality is perpetual youth, or at least some certain magical slow
down of aging speed. If there is immortality but with mortal aging,
that people hits their biological peak at 30, after which with gradual
and increased physical and mental disabilities, i doubt anyone would
wish such a immortality. Such a immortality is essentially a perpetual
vegetable after a mortal period. To dismiss immortality by not granting
perpetual youth, is rather imaginatively poor. It would be more
interesting, if Swift were to shroud immortality with some other,
inescapable human conditions or complications.」

Xah
xah.DeleteThis@xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/

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Xah Lee

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Since: Jan 02, 2007
Posts: 3



(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:45 am
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biological immortality as a theoretical possibility is currently hotly
debated among scientists.

practically speaking, immortality is still a science fiction concept.
And if immortality becomes a remote possibility in the near or far
future, who knows what then other technological revolutions such as
robotics or nano-tech would have already changed the world perhaps into
ways we can't fathom.

on the other hand, prolonging life, or rather, preventing illness or
disabilities that rob life, is getting better all the time with the
match of technology. Currently the expected age of rich counties is
some late 70s and is increasing slowly. (however, it won't
“prolong” the biological life-span, roughly about 120)

some general and biological info about aging can be found on wikip:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longevity
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senescence

i haven't read much about the social consequences of aging
population... it is happening fast in most rich nations...

Xah
xah RemoveThis @xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/

Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 2 Jan 2007 06:39:25 -0800, "Xah Lee" <xah RemoveThis @xahlee.org> wrote:
>
> >?• Swift's take on immortality is a sad one, with dotage being its
> >fatal disease. Granted that he does a pessimistic take, but his
> >resolution is rather unsatisfactory. First of all, implied in the word
> >immortality is perpetual youth, or at least some certain magical slow
> >down of aging speed. If there is immortality but with mortal aging,
> >that people hits their biological peak at 30, after which with gradual
> >and increased physical and mental disabilities, i doubt anyone would
> >wish such a immortality. Such a immortality is essentially a perpetual
> >vegetable after a mortal period. To dismiss immortality by not granting
> >perpetual youth, is rather imaginatively poor. It would be more
> >interesting, if Swift were to shroud immortality with some other,
> >inescapable human conditions or complications.?
>
> Both can be interesting. But if we're talking about our world today
> (or the world in Swift's time), it is worth looking at what our
> efforts at prolonging life are giving us.

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Mike Lyle

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Since: Jan 02, 2007
Posts: 2



(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 11:23 am
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Martin Ambuhl wrote:
[...]
> From English literature, we have
> TITHONUS
> Alfred, Lord Tennyson
> (Composed 1833, revised 1859, published 1860)
>
> The woods decay, the woods decay and fall,
> The vapours weep their burthen to the ground,
> Man comes and tills the field and lies beneath,
> And after many a summer dies the swan.
> Me only cruel immortality
> Consumes; I wither slowly in thine arms,
> Here at the quiet limit of the world,
[... etc; snipped with regret...]

God, that's good! I haven't read it since it was wasted on careless
youth.

--
Mike.
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Mike Lyle

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Since: Jan 02, 2007
Posts: 2



(Msg. 4) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:06 pm
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Wayne Throop wrote:
> : djheydt.RemoveThis@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
> : There's a Greek legend of a guy named Tithonus who
> : was loved by a goddess (Artemis maybe?), who asked Zeus to give
> : him immortality. Zeus obliged, but she hadn't thought to ask for
> : perpetual youth for him as well, so he got older and older and
> : older and finally the goddess got tired of him and turned him
> : into a grasshopper.
>
> Hm. The way I heard that one, his aging made him wither into a grasshopper.

I don't think it's clear whether the process was spontaneous, or if Eos
magicked him into a, or even _the_, cicada. Note that a cicada sings
beautifully and sheds its old skin. I think our only authority for
older forms of the legend is Hellanicus of Lesbos, whose work survives
only in fragments. Note when naming daughters that Dawn is portrayed as
a sexual predator carrying men away: her habit is connected with the
Greeks' holding funerals at night.

--
Mike.
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Don Phillipson

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Since: Jun 05, 2007
Posts: 28



(Msg. 5) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:40 pm
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"Xah Lee" <xah.RemoveThis@xahlee.org> wrote in message
news:1167752756.875556.4120@h40g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

> biological immortality as a theoretical possibility is currently hotly
> debated among scientists.

Not really. Scientists know that every living thing dies in its
own time (presumably governed by DNA). The record for
longevity is held by some western US trees, e.g. bristlecone
pine, est. 3,000 years -- which is not long compared with
radiological half-lives let alone geological time. The sort of
thing scientists actually debate is how to get a mouse (of
usual life span 2 years) to live for 3 years.

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
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Martin Ambuhl

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Since: Feb 22, 2005
Posts: 4



(Msg. 6) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 1:03 pm
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Xah Lee wrote:
> Just read Gulliver's Travels, part 3 chatper 10.
> ( http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt3ch10.html )
>
> Where, they have this "Struldbrugs", which is a immortal, but!
>
> And here's my comment on this chapter:

[rehash of the lesson of Eos and Tithonus]

That you have just discovered one of the oldest themes in literature is
not surprising. We have seen your providing evidence of your ignorance
before. The importance of Swift's writing is not in new deep insights;
rather, it is in the way he constructs new stories from old materials,
producing commentary on his own society in a palateable way. For the
story of Tithonus, check the Homeric hymn to Aphrodite (l, 213-238).

From English literature, we have
TITHONUS
Alfred, Lord Tennyson
(Composed 1833, revised 1859, published 1860)

The woods decay, the woods decay and fall,
The vapours weep their burthen to the ground,
Man comes and tills the field and lies beneath,
And after many a summer dies the swan.
Me only cruel immortality
Consumes; I wither slowly in thine arms,
Here at the quiet limit of the world,
A white-hair'd shadow roaming like a dream
The ever-silent spaces of the East,
Far-folded mists, and gleaming halls of morn.
Alas! for this gray shadow, once a man--
So glorious in his beauty and thy choice,
Who madest him thy chosen, that he seem'd
To his great heart none other than a God!
I ask'd thee, "Give me immortality."
Then didst thou grant mine asking with a smile,
Like wealthy men who care not how they give.
But thy strong Hours indignant work'd their wills,
And beat me down and marr'd and wasted me,
And tho' they could not end me, left me maim'd
To dwell in presence of immortal youth,
Immortal age beside immortal youth,
And all I was in ashes. Can thy love
Thy beauty, make amends, tho' even now,
Close over us, the silver star, thy guide,
Shines in those tremulous eyes that fill with tears
To hear me? Let me go: take back thy gift:
Why should a man desire in any way
To vary from the kindly race of men,
Or pass beyond the goal of ordinance
Where all should pause, as is most meet for all?

A soft air fans the cloud apart; there comes
A glimpse of that dark world where I was born.
Once more the old mysterious glimmer steals
From any pure brows, and from thy shoulders pure,
And bosom beating with a heart renew'd.
Thy cheek begins to redden thro' the gloom,
Thy sweet eyes brighten slowly close to mine,
Ere yet they blind the stars, and the wild team
Which love thee, yearning for thy yoke, arise,
And shake the darkness from their loosen'd manes,
And beat the twilight into flakes of fire.
Lo! ever thus thou growest beautiful
In silence, then before thine answer given
Departest, and thy tears are on my cheek.

Why wilt thou ever scare me with thy tears,
And make me tremble lest a saying learnt,
In days far-off, on that dark earth, be true?
"The Gods themselves cannot recall their gifts."

Ay me! ay me! with what another heart
In days far-off, and with what other eyes
I used to watch ‹ if I be he that watch'd ‹
The lucid outline forming round thee; saw
The dim curls kindle into sunny rings;
Changed with thy mystic change, and felt my blood
Glow with the glow that slowly crimson'd all
Thy presence and thy portals, while I lay,
Mouth, forehead, eyelids, growing dewy-warm
With kisses balmier than half-opening buds
Of April, and could hear the lips that kiss'd
Whispering I knew not what of wild and sweet,
Like that strange song I heard Apollo sing,
While Ilion like a mist rose into towers.

Yet hold me not for ever in thine East;
How can my nature longer mix with thine?
Coldly thy rosy shadows bathe me, cold
Are all thy lights, and cold my wrinkled feet
Upon thy glimmering thresholds, when the steam
Floats up from those dim fields about the homes
Of happy men that have the power to die,
And grassy barrows of the happier dead.
Release me, and restore me to the ground;
Thou seest all things, thou wilt see my grave:
Thou wilt renew thy beauty morn by morn;
I earth in earth forget these empty courts,
And thee returning on thy silver wheels.
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Howard Brazee

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Since: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 37



(Msg. 7) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:49 pm
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On 2 Jan 2007 06:39:25 -0800, "Xah Lee" <xah.DeleteThis@xahlee.org> wrote:

>? Swift's take on immortality is a sad one, with dotage being its
>fatal disease. Granted that he does a pessimistic take, but his
>resolution is rather unsatisfactory. First of all, implied in the word
>immortality is perpetual youth, or at least some certain magical slow
>down of aging speed. If there is immortality but with mortal aging,
>that people hits their biological peak at 30, after which with gradual
>and increased physical and mental disabilities, i doubt anyone would
>wish such a immortality. Such a immortality is essentially a perpetual
>vegetable after a mortal period. To dismiss immortality by not granting
>perpetual youth, is rather imaginatively poor. It would be more
>interesting, if Swift were to shroud immortality with some other,
>inescapable human conditions or complications.?

Both can be interesting. But if we're talking about our world today
(or the world in Swift's time), it is worth looking at what our
efforts at prolonging life are giving us.
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djheydt

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Since: Jan 12, 2004
Posts: 74



(Msg. 8) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:52 pm
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In article <1167748765.232772.134650.TakeThisOut@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
Xah Lee <xah.TakeThisOut@xahlee.org> wrote:

>..... First of all, implied in the word
>immortality is perpetual youth, or at least some certain magical slow
>down of aging speed.

Not always. There's a Greek legend of a guy named Tithonus who
was loved by a goddess (Artemis maybe?), who asked Zeus to give
him immortality. Zeus obliged, but she hadn't thought to ask for
perpetual youth for him as well, so he got older and older and
older and finally the goddess got tired of him and turned him
into a grasshopper.



Dorothy J. Heydt
Albany, California
djheydt.TakeThisOut@kithrup.com
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Martin Ambuhl

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Since: Feb 22, 2005
Posts: 4



(Msg. 9) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 4:52 pm
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Dorothy J Heydt wrote:

> Not always. There's a Greek legend of a guy named Tithonus who
> was loved by a goddess (Artemis maybe?),

Eos, or Aurora to Romans.

> who asked Zeus to give
> him immortality. Zeus obliged, but she hadn't thought to ask for
> perpetual youth for him as well, so he got older and older and
> older and finally the goddess got tired of him and turned him
> into a grasshopper.

A cicada (tettix), actually. And that ending is not actually in any of
the old Greek texts, but in scholia. However, Michael Crudden thinks
the Homeric hymn to Aphrodite alludes to the transformation in line 237.
He points to the analogue between that line (in his translation)
"From him flows ceaseless speech, but he has no vigour left"
and Iliad 3.150-153
[lines 179-184 of Fagle's translation]
The old men of the realm held seats above the gates.
Long years had brought their fighting to a halt
but they were eloquent speakers still, clear as cicadas
settled on treetops, lifting their voices through the forest,
rising softly, falling, dying away ... So they waited,
the old chiefs of Troy, as they sat aloft the tower.

[lines 177-184 of Robert Fitzgerald's translation]
peers of the realm, in age strengthless at war
but strong still in their talking -- perching now
above the Skaian Gates on the escarpment.
They sounded like cicadas in dry summer
that cling on leafy trees and send out voices
rhythmic and long --
so droned and murmured these
old leaders of the Trojans on the tower,
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throopw

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Since: Aug 18, 2004
Posts: 39



(Msg. 10) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:45 pm
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: djheydt.DeleteThis@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt)
: There's a Greek legend of a guy named Tithonus who
: was loved by a goddess (Artemis maybe?), who asked Zeus to give
: him immortality. Zeus obliged, but she hadn't thought to ask for
: perpetual youth for him as well, so he got older and older and
: older and finally the goddess got tired of him and turned him
: into a grasshopper.

Hm. The way I heard that one, his aging made him wither into a grasshopper.


"When you can snatch the error code from
the trap frame, it will be time to leave."


Wayne Throop throopw.DeleteThis@sheol.org http://sheol.org/throopw
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robertaw

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Since: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 66



(Msg. 11) Posted: Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:21 pm
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In article <JB92vD.820.RemoveThis@kithrup.com>,
djheydt.RemoveThis@kithrup.com (Dorothy J Heydt) wrote:

> In article <1167748765.232772.134650.RemoveThis@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
> Xah Lee <xah.RemoveThis@xahlee.org> wrote:
>
> >..... First of all, implied in the word
> >immortality is perpetual youth, or at least some certain magical slow
> >down of aging speed.
>
> Not always. There's a Greek legend of a guy named Tithonus who
> was loved by a goddess (Artemis maybe?), who asked Zeus to give
> him immortality. Zeus obliged, but she hadn't thought to ask for
> perpetual youth for him as well, so he got older and older and
> older and finally the goddess got tired of him and turned him
> into a grasshopper.

Not Artemis, it was a lesser goddess, Eos (Dawn), who made the
oversight.

--
Robert Woodward <robertaw.RemoveThis@drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
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Xah Lee

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Since: Jan 02, 2007
Posts: 3



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 2:47 am
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Folks, Read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tithonus

« poem on Tithonus is the 4th extant complete poem by ancient Greek
lyrical poetess Sappho. The poem was published for the first time by
Martin West in the Times Literary Supplement, June 21 (or 24) of
2005.»

O, dear Sappho of Lesbos, how i love you so!

does anyone know if this is online somewhere? i want to read her.

For those interested in Greek Mythology, i recommend:

• Leda and the Swan
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/lacru/leda.html

• Europa and the Bull
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/lacru/europa_bull.html

and

• A Love of th Mythology of the Greeks
http://xahlee.org/Periodic_dosage_dir/t1/20040428_xelso_ranmi.html

PS Mister Martin Ambuhl: try not to be a cock when i'm around, because,
you are of no match.

Xah
xah DeleteThis @xahlee.org
http://xahlee.org/


Martin Ambuhl wrote:
> Xah Lee wrote:
> > Just read Gulliver's Travels, part 3 chatper 10.
> > ( http://xahlee.org/p/Gullivers_Travels/gt3ch10.html )
> >
> > Where, they have this “Struldbrugs”, which is a immortal, but!
> >
> > And here's my comment on this chapter:
>
> [rehash of the lesson of Eos and Tithonus]
>
> That you have just discovered one of the oldest themes in literature is
> not surprising. We have seen your providing evidence of your ignorance
> before. The importance of Swift's writing is not in new deep insights;
> rather, it is in the way he constructs new stories from old materials,
> producing commentary on his own society in a palateable way. For the
> story of Tithonus, check the Homeric hymn to Aphrodite (l, 213-238).
>
> From English literature, we have
> TITHONUS
> Alfred, Lord Tennyson
> (Composed 1833, revised 1859, published 1860)
>
> The woods decay, the woods decay and fall,
> The vapours weep their burthen to the ground,
> Man comes and tills the field and lies beneath,
> And after many a summer dies the swan.
> Me only cruel immortality
> Consumes; I wither slowly in thine arms,
> Here at the quiet limit of the world,
> A white-hair'd shadow roaming like a dream
> The ever-silent spaces of the East,
> Far-folded mists, and gleaming halls of morn.
> Alas! for this gray shadow, once a man--
> So glorious in his beauty and thy choice,
> Who madest him thy chosen, that he seem'd
> To his great heart none other than a God!
> I ask'd thee, "Give me immortality."
> Then didst thou grant mine asking with a smile,
> Like wealthy men who care not how they give.
> But thy strong Hours indignant work'd their wills,
> And beat me down and marr'd and wasted me,
> And tho' they could not end me, left me maim'd
> To dwell in presence of immortal youth,
> Immortal age beside immortal youth,
> And all I was in ashes. Can thy love
> Thy beauty, make amends, tho' even now,
> Close over us, the silver star, thy guide,
> Shines in those tremulous eyes that fill with tears
> To hear me? Let me go: take back thy gift:
> Why should a man desire in any way
> To vary from the kindly race of men,
> Or pass beyond the goal of ordinance
> Where all should pause, as is most meet for all?
>
> A soft air fans the cloud apart; there comes
> A glimpse of that dark world where I was born.
> Once more the old mysterious glimmer steals
> From any pure brows, and from thy shoulders pure,
> And bosom beating with a heart renew'd.
> Thy cheek begins to redden thro' the gloom,
> Thy sweet eyes brighten slowly close to mine,
> Ere yet they blind the stars, and the wild team
> Which love thee, yearning for thy yoke, arise,
> And shake the darkness from their loosen'd manes,
> And beat the twilight into flakes of fire.
> Lo! ever thus thou growest beautiful
> In silence, then before thine answer given
> Departest, and thy tears are on my cheek.
>
> Why wilt thou ever scare me with thy tears,
> And make me tremble lest a saying learnt,
> In days far-off, on that dark earth, be true?
> "The Gods themselves cannot recall their gifts."
>
> Ay me! ay me! with what another heart
> In days far-off, and with what other eyes
> I used to watch ‹ if I be he that watch'd ‹
> The lucid outline forming round thee; saw
> The dim curls kindle into sunny rings;
> Changed with thy mystic change, and felt my blood
> Glow with the glow that slowly crimson'd all
> Thy presence and thy portals, while I lay,
> Mouth, forehead, eyelids, growing dewy-warm
> With kisses balmier than half-opening buds
> Of April, and could hear the lips that kiss'd
> Whispering I knew not what of wild and sweet,
> Like that strange song I heard Apollo sing,
> While Ilion like a mist rose into towers.
>
> Yet hold me not for ever in thine East;
> How can my nature longer mix with thine?
> Coldly thy rosy shadows bathe me, cold
> Are all thy lights, and cold my wrinkled feet
> Upon thy glimmering thresholds, when the steam
> Floats up from those dim fields about the homes
> Of happy men that have the power to die,
> And grassy barrows of the happier dead.
> Release me, and restore me to the ground;
> Thou seest all things, thou wilt see my grave:
> Thou wilt renew thy beauty morn by morn;
> I earth in earth forget these empty courts,
> And thee returning on thy silver wheels.
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