What Happened to Sauron's First "Constructed" Body?

Michael O'Neill wrote:
 > What Happened to Sauron's First "Constructed" Body?

<snip>

Perhaps it suffered a similar fate to Saruman's body, becoming rags of
skin on bones. Which brings up the question, why did Saruman's body
shrivel, as if "long years of death" were upon it, while Gandalf's body
remained intact after his fall?
--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:04:17 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"
wrote:

 >Michael O'Neill wrote:
  >> What Happened to Sauron's First "Constructed" Body?
 >
 ><snip>
 >
 >Perhaps it suffered a similar fate to Saruman's body, becoming rags of
 >skin on bones. Which brings up the question, why did Saruman's body
 >shrivel, as if "long years of death" were upon it, while Gandalf's body
 >remained intact after his fall?

How do you know that it did?
--
Stephen Horgan, <a rel="nofollow" style='text-decoration: none;' href="http://www.horgan.org.uk" target="_blank">http://www.horgan.org.uk</a>

"intelligent people will tend to overvalue intelligence"
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

Stephen Horgan wrote:
 >
 > On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:04:17 GMT, "Bill O'Meally"

 >
  > >Michael O'Neill wrote:
   > >> What Happened to Sauron's First "Constructed" Body?
  > >
  > ><snip>
  > >
  > >Perhaps it suffered a similar fate to Saruman's body, becoming rags of
  > >skin on bones. Which brings up the question, why did Saruman's body
  > >shrivel, as if "long years of death" were upon it, while Gandalf's body
  > >remained intact after his fall?
 >
 > How do you know that it did?

In point of fact we don't. We *assume* on first reading the LotR that he
reinhabited it after being sent back. It is the logical course on the
surface of things, and of course, on the top of a snow covered mountain,
it had a chance of being perfectly preserved.

Yet we also hear that his old like "burned away"...

From the LotR: The Field of Cormallen - 'Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir
my friend,' said Gandalf. 'Thrice shall pay for all, if you are willing.
You will not find me a burden much greater than when you bore me from
Zirak-zigil, where my old life burned away.'

....and I'm reminded of Feanors end, how his spirit, leaving the flesh,
consumed it.

From the Silmarillion: Of the Return of the Noldor - "Then he died; but
he had neither burial nor tomb, for so fiery was his spirit that as it
sped his body fell to ash, and was borne away like smoke; and his
likeness has never again appeared in Arda, neither has his spirit left
the halls of Mandos."

It is quite possible that spirits of significant native power, consume
their bodies when leaving them, although the exact manner differs.

I suspect that Saruman did not have enough native strength remaining to
go out in flames, so to speak. Saruman was a Ring Maker and to succeed in
that endeavour he may have had to put part of his own native strength
into the making of his Ring as he knew Sauron had into making the One
Ring.

From the LotR: The Scouring of the Shire - "To the dismay of those that
stood by, about the body of Saruman a grey mist gathered, and rising
slowly to a great height like smoke from a fire, as a pale shrouded
figure it loomed over the Hill. For a moment it wavered, looking to the
West; but out of the West came a cold wind, and it bent away, and with a
sigh dissolved into nothing. Frodo looked down at the body with pity and
horror, for as he looked it seemed that long years of death were suddenly
revealed in it, and it shrank, and the shrivelled face became rags of
skin upon a hideous skull"

I can think of no other reason for Saruman's fall being so abject as
shown in the book except the making of the Ring and its fall when the One
Ring was destroyed. Arguments can be raised about Maiar being as
susceptible to nervous breakdowns as Men, but nowhere else to do we see
Maiar "losing it" so badly, their appearance going, their self-respect
disappearing, their abilities deserting them, even their vaunted powers
of persuasion becoming decrepit and haggard.

From the LoTR: Many Partings - "'If it be truly the last, I am glad,'
said Saruman; 'for I shall be spared the trouble of refusing it again.
All my hopes are ruined, but I would not share yours. If you have any.'
For a moment his eyes kindled. 'Go!' he said. 'I did not spend long study
on these matters for naught. You have doomed yourselves, and you know it.
And it will afford me some comfort as I wander to think that you pulled
down your own house when you destroyed mine. And now, what ship will bear
you back across so wide a sea?' he mocked. 'It will be a grey ship, and
full of ghosts.' He laughed, but his voice was cracked and hideous.
'Get up, you idiot!' he shouted to the other beggar, who had sat down on
the ground; and he struck him with his staff. 'Turn about! If these fine
folk are going our way, then we will take another. Get on, or I'll give
you no crust for your supper!'
The beggar turned and slouched past whimpering: 'Poor old Gríma! Poor old
Gríma! Always beaten and cursed. How I hate him! I wish I could leave
him!'
'Then leave him!' said Gandalf.
But Wormtongue only shot a glance of his bleared eyes full of terror at
Gandalf, and then shuffled quickly past behind Saruman. As the wretched
pair passed by the company they came to the hobbits, and Saruman stopped
and stared at them; but they looked at him with pity.
'So you have come to gloat too, have you, my urchins?' he said. 'You
don't care what a beggar lacks, do you? For you have all you want, food
and fine clothes, and the best weed for your pipes. Oh yes, I know! I
know where it comes from. You would not give a pipeful to a beggar, would
you?'
'I would, if I had any,' said Frodo.
'You can have what I have got left,' said Merry, 'if you will wait a
moment.' He got down and searched in the bag at his saddle. Then he
handed to Saruman a leather pouch. 'Take what there is,' he said. 'You
are welcome to it; it came from the flotsam of Isengard.'
'Mine, mine, yes and dearly bought!' cried Saruman, clutching at the
pouch. 'This is only a repayment in token; for you took more, I'll be
bound. Still, a beggar must be grateful, if a thief returns him even a
morsel of his own. Well, it will serve you right when you come home, if
you find things less good in the Southfarthing than you would like. Long
may your land be short of leaf!'
'Thank you!' said Merry. 'In that case I will have my pouch back, which
is not yours and has journeyed far with me. Wrap the weed in a rag of
your own.'
'One thief deserves another,' said Saruman, and turned his back on Merry,
and kicked Wormtongue, and went away towards the wood."

FWIW
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

Michael O'Neill wrote:

 > I suspect that Saruman did not have enough native strength remaining
 > to go out in flames, so to speak. Saruman was a Ring Maker and to
 > succeed in that endeavour he may have had to put part of his own
 > native strength into the making of his Ring as he knew Sauron had
 > into making the One Ring.
 >

I think perhaps you are attributing more to Saruman's ring than there
ought to be. There is nothing in the writings to suggest it was anything
more than *just a ring*. I think it was nothing more than wishful
thinking to have his own Ring of Power, or an emulating Sauron (or
perhaps Gandalf -- we know he was envious of Narya). I don't think
Saruman with his ring was any more significant than a child with a toy
gun, who is playing at being a real cowboy.

Now, Gandalf had a *real* Ring of Power, which had the power of
preservation to boot. Could that have had an effect at preserving his
body after his death?

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

"Stephen Horgan" wrote in message

 > On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:04:17 GMT, "Bill O'Meally" wrote:

  >> Gandalf's body remained intact after his fall?

 > How do you know that it did?

January 25, 3019 - "He [Gandalf] casts down the Balrog and passes away.
His body lies on the peak."
February 14, 3019 - "Gandalf returns to life and lies in a trance."
RotK, The Tale of Years
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

Bill O'Meally wrote:
 >
 > Michael O'Neill wrote:
 >
  > > I suspect that Saruman did not have enough native strength remaining
  > > to go out in flames, so to speak. Saruman was a Ring Maker and to
  > > succeed in that endeavour he may have had to put part of his own
  > > native strength into the making of his Ring as he knew Sauron had
  > > into making the One Ring.
  > >
 >
 > I think perhaps you are attributing more to Saruman's ring than there
 > ought to be. There is nothing in the writings to suggest it was anything
 > more than *just a ring*.

As I read the passage describing the confrontation between Gandalf and
Saruman in Orthanc again, it seems as if the significance of Saruman's
Ring is given great weight. He names himself "Ring-Maker". I don't think
he meant that he could now equal the goldsmiths of the Dwarves, do you?

 > I think it was nothing more than wishful
 > thinking to have his own Ring of Power, or an emulating Sauron (or
 > perhaps Gandalf -- we know he was envious of Narya).

On the contrary, Saruman was a Maia of Aule, just as Sauron had been, and
had immersed himself in Ring Lore. No one would have been better prepared
to forge a Ring of Power. And let's face it, the Elves made most of the
Rings, some with Sauron's help admittedly, but not the Three, the most
powerful.

Saruman also had a Palantír, and could, no doubt have fulfilled Gandalf's
ambition in a smaller way to espy the making of the original Elvish
Rings.

<what ambition?>

 > I don't think
 > Saruman with his ring was any more significant than a child with a toy
 > gun, who is playing at being a real cowboy.

I think you are perhaps reading too much into author's piss take
comparing Orthanc to Barad Dur, as a "child's flattery". Yet reading the
chapter entitled Helm's Deep, we can see that Saruman was able to hold a
significant portion of the Rohirrim at bay, and could have possibly
prevailed if not for the timely arrival of the Huorns, Erkenbrand's
arrival notwithstanding.

Saruman's power was therefore significant in the scheme of things and
against the lesser Kingdoms of Men as existed at the time of the telling
of the LotR would have weighed heavily in counsels. But even taking your
comment in this light, the Ring of Saruman could have been potent indeed
had he been brave enough to use it, but elsewhere the hobbits note that
Saruman doesn't seem up to a good fight.

The device of comparison between Orthanc and Barad Dur is IMO meant to
convey the immeasurable power of Barad Dur, not belittle Saruman.
Sauron's empire at its height was invulnerable to any attack. As Gandalf
points out, if Sauron had simply made his land secure and prevented all
access to it, all hope would have died.

Regardless of that comparison IMO Saruman succeeded in equaling the
Mirdain and made a Ring of Power, just as he "borrowed" from Gandalf's
store of knowledge and created gunpowder. Given that Gandalf had already
invented rockets, Saruman, had he been able to choose his time and stay
put and invented some more weaponry, he could even have challenged
Sauron.

 > Now, Gandalf had a *real* Ring of Power, which had the power of
 > preservation to boot. Could that have had an effect at preserving his
 > body after his death?

It might have done. His comment "Naked I was sent back" seems to give the
lie to that option. But Gandalf's "real" Ring of power was allegedly
useless as a weapon according to Elrond. Saruman's although probably much
less potent, could nevertheless have been useful.

<don't ask me how Galadriel laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur. Probably a
trick passed down from Lúthien to Elrond to his mother-in-law...>

After all, just because a soldier is wearing a full suit of armour
doesn't mean he cannot be disabled by a skillfully place knife.

<where have I read that before?>

FWIW

M.
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

Conrad B Dunkerson wrote:
 >


  > > On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:04:17 GMT, "Bill O'Meally" wrote:
 >
   > >> Gandalf's body remained intact after his fall?
 >
  > > How do you know that it did?
 >
 > January 25, 3019 - "He [Gandalf] casts down the Balrog and passes away.
 > His body lies on the peak."
 > February 14, 3019 - "Gandalf returns to life and lies in a trance."
 > RotK, The Tale of Years

Tha comment seems to ignore Gandal's own words "Naked I was sent back."

M.
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

"Michael O'Neill" wrote in message


 > Tha comment seems to ignore Gandal's own words "Naked I was sent back."

Not really. His spirit was sent back to his body - which was naked after
the water, fire, lightning, battle, et cetera.

"Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant just literally, 'Unclothed like a
child' (not disincarnate), and so ready to receive the white robes of the
highest. Galadriel's power is not divine, and his healing in Lorien is
meant to be no more than physical healing and refreshment."
Letter #156

The injuries Gandalf sustained in the battle with the Balrog had to be
healed.
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

"Conrad B Dunkerson" wrote
in


 > in message

  >> On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:04:17 GMT, "Bill O'Meally" wrote:
 >
   >>> Gandalf's body remained intact after his fall?
 >
  >> How do you know that it did?
 >
 > January 25, 3019 - "He [Gandalf] casts down the Balrog and
 > passes away. His body lies on the peak."
 > February 14, 3019 - "Gandalf returns to life and lies in a
 > trance." RotK, The Tale of Years
 >
 >

Doesn't mean that body was more than a sack of kin and bones.
His return to life could have entailed more than just his spirit
going back into the body; the body may have been healed when his
spirit returned to it, or prior to it (by Eru). And judging by
what the eagle said, there wasn't a lot of body to Gandalf after
that point either, as he was quite light a burden.

--
mc
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

On 29 Feb 2004 04:11:10 GMT,
TeaLady (Mari C.) wrote:


 >

  >> in message

   >>> On Sat, 28 Feb 2004 16:04:17 GMT, "Bill O'Meally" wrote:
  >>
   >>>> Gandalf's body remained intact after his fall?
  >>
   >>> How do you know that it did?
  >>
  >> January 25, 3019 - "He [Gandalf] casts down the Balrog and
  >> passes away. His body lies on the peak."
  >> February 14, 3019 - "Gandalf returns to life and lies in a
  >> trance." RotK, The Tale of Years
  >>
  >>
 >
 > Doesn't mean that body was more than a sack of kin and bones.
 > His return to life could have entailed more than just his spirit
 > going back into the body; the body may have been healed when his
 > spirit returned to it, or prior to it (by Eru). And judging by
 > what the eagle said, there wasn't a lot of body to Gandalf after
 > that point either, as he was quite light a burden.

We're talking about eagles that could lift Dwarves from safety, so Gwahir's
words may not be entirely literal:

"[Gandalf] was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or
govenors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the
moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back for a brief time, until
my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the Gods'
whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he
'passed out of thought and time'. Naked is alas! unclear. It was meant
just literally, 'Unclothed like a child' (not disincarnate), and so
ready to receive the white robes of the highest. Galadriel's power is
not divine, and his healing in Lorien is meant to be no more than
physical healing and refreshment."
Letter #156

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

Michael O'Neill wrote:

 > As I read the passage describing the confrontation between Gandalf and
 > Saruman in Orthanc again, it seems as if the significance of Saruman's
 > Ring is given great weight. He names himself "Ring-Maker". I don't
 > think he meant that he could now equal the goldsmiths of the Dwarves,
 > do you?

No, and I don't think he was on par with the Noldor of old either.
Saruman was just bragging, IMO. He was known to do that, you know.

 >
  >> I think it was nothing more than wishful
  >> thinking to have his own Ring of Power, or an emulating Sauron (or
  >> perhaps Gandalf -- we know he was envious of Narya).
 >
 > On the contrary, Saruman was a Maia of Aule, just as Sauron had been,
 > and had immersed himself in Ring Lore. No one would have been better
 > prepared to forge a Ring of Power. And let's face it, the Elves made
 > most of the Rings, some with Sauron's help admittedly, but not the
 > Three, the most powerful.

You would have made a good lawyer, Michael! (No insult intended; my
brother is one). However, despite your verbose reply, it is all
speculation. Show me something specific that Tolkien wrote that states
Saruman's ring had any power and I'll agree with you.

 >
 > Saruman also had a Palantír, and could, no doubt have fulfilled
 > Gandalf's ambition in a smaller way to espy the making of the
 > original Elvish Rings.

Perhaps. Maybe. Could have.

 >
 > <what ambition?>
 >
  >> I don't think
  >> Saruman with his ring was any more significant than a child with a
  >> toy gun, who is playing at being a real cowboy.
 >
 > I think you are perhaps reading too much into author's piss take
 > comparing Orthanc to Barad Dur, as a "child's flattery". Yet reading
 > the chapter entitled Helm's Deep, we can see that Saruman was able to
 > hold a significant portion of the Rohirrim at bay, and could have
 > possibly prevailed if not for the timely arrival of the Huorns,
 > Erkenbrand's arrival notwithstanding.

Sure. He established himself as a significant military power. No ring
requirement here. He was a wizard afterall, and chief of the order to
boot. He had his own inherent powers at his disposal.

 >
 > Saruman's power was therefore significant in the scheme of things and
 > against the lesser Kingdoms of Men as existed at the time of the
 > telling of the LotR would have weighed heavily in counsels. But even
 > taking your comment in this light, the Ring of Saruman could have
 > been potent indeed

Yup. /Could/ have.

had he been brave enough to use it, but elsewhere
 > the hobbits note that Saruman doesn't seem up to a good fight.
 >
 > The device of comparison between Orthanc and Barad Dur is IMO meant to
 > convey the immeasurable power of Barad Dur, not belittle Saruman.

On the contrary. I think Tolkien is doing just that. Hence the "child's
flattery" bit.

 > Sauron's empire at its height was invulnerable to any attack. As
 > Gandalf points out, if Sauron had simply made his land secure and
 > prevented all access to it, all hope would have died.
 >
 > Regardless of that comparison IMO Saruman succeeded in equaling the
 > Mirdain and made a Ring of Power, just as he "borrowed" from Gandalf's
 > store of knowledge and created gunpowder.

Did he? Where does it say that Saruman got gunpowder from Gandalf? How
do we know it wasn't the other way around? Perhaps it was something they
both had knowledge of from the start.

Given that Gandalf had
 > already invented rockets, Saruman, had he been able to choose his
 > time and stay put and invented some more weaponry, he could even have
 > challenged Sauron.
 >
  >> Now, Gandalf had a *real* Ring of Power, which had the power of
  >> preservation to boot. Could that have had an effect at preserving his
  >> body after his death?
 >
 > It might have done. His comment "Naked I was sent back" seems to give
 > the lie to that option.

How so?

But Gandalf's "real" Ring of power was
 > allegedly useless as a weapon according to Elrond. Saruman's although
 > probably much less potent, could nevertheless have been useful.

I didn't say he used it as a weapon. I just suggested that perhaps
Narya, still being on Gandalf's dead body may have had the effect of
preserving it. It apparently did not decompose instantaneously as
Saruman's did when he was slain. Just my speculation, however.

 >
 > <don't ask me how Galadriel laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur.
 > Probably a trick passed down from Lúthien to Elrond to his
 > mother-in-law...>

Galadriel had her own strengths regardless of Nenya.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

Bill O'Meally wrote:
>
> Michael O'Neill wrote:
>
> > As I read the passage describing the confrontation between Gandalf and
> > Saruman in Orthanc again, it seems as if the significance of Saruman's
> > Ring is given great weight. He names himself "Ring-Maker". I don't
> > think he meant that he could now equal the goldsmiths of the Dwarves,
> > do you?
>
> No, and I don't think he was on par with the Noldor of old either.
> Saruman was just bragging, IMO. He was known to do that, you know.
>
> >
> >> I think it was nothing more than wishful
> >> thinking to have his own Ring of Power, or an emulating Sauron (or
> >> perhaps Gandalf -- we know he was envious of Narya).
> >
> > On the contrary, Saruman was a Maia of Aule, just as Sauron had been,
> > and had immersed himself in Ring Lore. No one would have been better
> > prepared to forge a Ring of Power. And let's face it, the Elves made
> > most of the Rings, some with Sauron's help admittedly, but not the
> > Three, the most powerful.
>
> You would have made a good lawyer, Michael! (No insult intended; my
> brother is one). However, despite your verbose reply, it is all
> speculation. Show me something specific that Tolkien wrote that states
> Saruman's ring had any power and I'll agree with you.

No insult taken but there's nothing verbose in constructing a reasoned
argument with the minimum of words. That's known as being succinct, the
opposite of verbose. 5 lines of text is hardly verbose.

> > Saruman also had a Palantír, and could, no doubt have fulfilled
> > Gandalf's ambition in a smaller way to espy the making of the
> > original Elvish Rings.
>
> Perhaps. Maybe. Could have.
>
> >
> > <what ambition?>

I see you didn't catch this ball.

Here try again.

"'Easy it is now to guess how quickly the roving eye of Saruman was
trapped and held; and how ever since he has been persuaded from afar, and
daunted when persuasion would not serve. The biter bit, the hawk under
the eagle's foot, the spider in a steel web! How long, I wonder, has he
been constrained to come often to his glass for inspection and
instruction, and the Orthanc-stone so bent towards Barad-dûr that, if any
save a will of adamant now looks into it, it will bear his mind and sight
swiftly thither? And how it draws one to itself! Have I not felt it? Even
now my heart desires to test my will upon it, to see if I could not
wrench it from him and turn it where I would - to look across the wide
seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the
unimaginable hand and mind of Fëanor at their work, while both the White
Tree and the Golden were in flower!' He sighed and fell silent."

The Palantír would originally have been a great source of information
regarding anything Saruman could imagine. From UT, The Palantír:

"Saruman had no doubt from his investigations 6 gained a special
knowledge of the Stones, things that would attract his attention, and had
become convinced that the Orthanc-stone was still intact in its tower. He
acquired the keys of Orthanc in 2759, nominally as warden of the tower
and lieutenant of the Stewards of Gondor. At that time the matter of the
Orthanc-stone would hardly concern the White Council. Only Saruman,
having gained the favour of the Stewards, had yet made sufficient study
of the records of Gondor to perceive the interest of the palantíri and
the possible uses of those that survived; but of this he said nothing to
his colleagues. Owing to Saruman's jealousy and hatred of Gandalf he
ceased to cooperate with the Council, which last met in 2953. Without any
formal declaration Saruman then seized Isengard as his own domain and
paid no further attention to Gondor. The Council no doubt disapproved of
this; but Saruman was a free agent, and had the right, if he wished, to
act independently according to his own policy in the resistance to
Sauron."


> >> I don't think
> >> Saruman with his ring was any more significant than a child with a
> >> toy gun, who is playing at being a real cowboy.
> >
> > I think you are perhaps reading too much into author's piss take
> > comparing Orthanc to Barad Dur, as a "child's flattery". Yet reading
> > the chapter entitled Helm's Deep, we can see that Saruman was able to
> > hold a significant portion of the Rohirrim at bay, and could have
> > possibly prevailed if not for the timely arrival of the Huorns,
> > Erkenbrand's arrival notwithstanding.
>
> Sure. He established himself as a significant military power. No ring
> requirement here. He was a wizard afterall, and chief of the order to
> boot. He had his own inherent powers at his disposal.

I'm glad you agree Saruman in Orthanc was a significant military power.
However, you appear now to disagree with the point you make below about
the intent of the comparison between Orthanc and Barad Dur.

> > Saruman's power was therefore significant in the scheme of things and
> > against the lesser Kingdoms of Men as existed at the time of the
> > telling of the LotR would have weighed heavily in counsels. But even
> > taking your comment in this light, the Ring of Saruman could have
> > been potent indeed
>
> Yup. /Could/ have.
>
> had he been brave enough to use it, but elsewhere
> > the hobbits note that Saruman doesn't seem up to a good fight.
> >
> > The device of comparison between Orthanc and Barad Dur is IMO meant to
> > convey the immeasurable power of Barad Dur, not belittle Saruman.
>
> On the contrary. I think Tolkien is doing just that. Hence the
> "child's flattery" bit.

I think you already conceded this point above.

> > Sauron's empire at its height was invulnerable to any attack. As
> > Gandalf points out, if Sauron had simply made his land secure and
> > prevented all access to it, all hope would have died.
> >
> > Regardless of that comparison IMO Saruman succeeded in equaling the
> > Mirdain and made a Ring of Power, just as he "borrowed" from Gandalf's
> > store of knowledge and created gunpowder.
>
> Did he? Where does it say that Saruman got gunpowder from Gandalf? How
> do we know it wasn't the other way around? Perhaps it was something
> they both had knowledge of from the start.


Allow me to define what I think was the relationship between Saruman and
Gandalf.

Gandalf was Ólórin. His was the power of clear vision, artistic
inspiration and great invention.

Saruman was of the people of Aule: he was a maker, an artificer, an
"improver".

He was envious of Gandalf. Because of Varda's words in Valinor, because
of Círdan's gift, because of his eventual discovery of the One Ring's
location. He copied Gandalf consciously and came to hate him. Look up
your notes on pipe-weed if you don't believe me.

Saruman's power in Middle Earth was that he was able to warp and twist
anyone else's knowledge to use as a weapon. Look at the breeding of Orcs
and Men. The debasement of the Children's genetics was originally
Melkor's stronghold, with the creation of Orcs from the Elves. Saruman
didn't invent this "weapon", wasn't even able to "corrupt" Men as Morgoth
had done, he only cross-bred them with Orcs to debase Men and strengthen
Orcs against the Sun.

Thus it was with Gandalf's source of firework entertainment, gunpowder.

> Given that Gandalf had
> > already invented rockets, Saruman, had he been able to choose his
> > time and stay put and invented some more weaponry, he could even have
> > challenged Sauron.
> >
> >> Now, Gandalf had a *real* Ring of Power, which had the power of
> >> preservation to boot. Could that have had an effect at preserving his
> >> body after his death?
> >
> > It might have done. His comment "Naked I was sent back" seems to give
> > the lie to that option.
>
> How so?

What was sent back? I suggest you might read Letter # 156 before you
answer.

> But Gandalf's "real" Ring of power was
> > allegedly useless as a weapon according to Elrond. Saruman's although
> > probably much less potent, could nevertheless have been useful.
>
> I didn't say he used it as a weapon. I just suggested that perhaps
> Narya, still being on Gandalf's dead body may have had the effect of
> preserving it.

I conceded with my comment "It might have done" above and countered with
the quotation "Naked I was sent back".

> It apparently did not decompose instantaneously as
> Saruman's did when he was slain. Just my speculation, however.

Agreed and see above.

> > <don't ask me how Galadriel laid bare the pits of Dol Guldur.
> > Probably a trick passed down from Lúthien to Elrond to his
> > mother-in-law...>
>
> Galadriel had her own strengths regardless of Nenya.

Agreed, but none of her stated strengths stretched to the destructive
power of several tons of TNT.

Perhaps it is meant metaphorically, in that her Elven Host did the work,
as in "the King won the war".

FWIW

M.
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body? 

Michael O'Neill wrote:
> Bill O'Meally wrote:
>>
>> Michael O'Neill wrote:

>>> Saruman also had a Palantír, and could, no doubt have fulfilled
>>> Gandalf's ambition in a smaller way to espy the making of the
>>> original Elvish Rings.
>>
>> Perhaps. Maybe. Could have.
>>
>>>
>>> <what ambition?>
>
> I see you didn't catch this ball.
>

Perhaps because it was hit way into left field.


> Here try again.

<snip passage describing how Palantir could be used>

> The Palantír would originally have been a great source of information
> regarding anything Saruman could imagine. From UT, The Palantír:

Make that /could have/ been a great source of information had he chosen
to use it for such a purpose. I agree. But it does not state that he
used the palantir to look back to second age Eregion to learn how to
make a Ring of Power.

<snip passage from UT stating that Saruman suspected the Orthanc Stone
was still at Isengard, and was part of his reason for establishing
himself there>


>> Sure. He established himself as a significant military power. No ring
>> requirement here. He was a wizard afterall, and chief of the order to
>> boot. He had his own inherent powers at his disposal.
>
> I'm glad you agree Saruman in Orthanc was a significant military
> power. However, you appear now to disagree with the point you make
> below about the intent of the comparison between Orthanc and Barad
> Dur.

I see no disagreement. He /was/ a significant power. Who could disagree
with that? However, he was /insignificant/ when compared to Barad Dur.


>> Did he? Where does it say that Saruman got gunpowder from Gandalf?
>> How do we know it wasn't the other way around? Perhaps it was
>> something they both had knowledge of from the start.
>
>
> Allow me to define what I think was the relationship between Saruman
> and Gandalf.
>
> Gandalf was Ólórin. His was the power of clear vision, artistic
> inspiration and great invention.
>
> Saruman was of the people of Aule: he was a maker, an artificer, an
> "improver".
>
> He was envious of Gandalf. Because of Varda's words in Valinor,
> because of Círdan's gift, because of his eventual discovery of the
> One Ring's location. He copied Gandalf consciously and came to hate
> him. Look up your notes on pipe-weed if you don't believe me.

I don't disagree. But it doesn't state he got gunpowder from Gandalf.
You are speculating on that point.


>
> Saruman's power in Middle Earth was that he was able to warp and twist
> anyone else's knowledge to use as a weapon. Look at the breeding of
> Orcs and Men. The debasement of the Children's genetics was originally
> Melkor's stronghold, with the creation of Orcs from the Elves. Saruman
> didn't invent this "weapon", wasn't even able to "corrupt" Men as
> Morgoth had done, he only cross-bred them with Orcs to debase Men and
> strengthen Orcs against the Sun.
>
> Thus it was with Gandalf's source of firework entertainment,
> gunpowder.

Again, you are speculating on this point. You still haven't answered my
question. Where does it say that Saruman got gunpowder from Gandalf?
Please show me a specific citation. I'm not saying you're wrong, and
I've often wondered the same myself. I've tried to find references, but
could not. If you do know of any, please share them.

I hate to get too side tracked, but the issue I had been wanting to
discuss was whether Saruman's ring had any power. You are obviously of
the opinion that it did, but that is just an opinion. I don't believe
that it did, and I repeat: Show me something specific that Tolkien wrote
that states Saruman's ring had any power and I'll agree with you.

--
Bill

"Wise fool"
Gandalf, THE TWO TOWERS
-- The Wise will remove 'se' to reply; the Foolish will not--
 >> Stay informed about: What Happened to Sauron's First ""Constructed"" Body?