Haven's official language?

"deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:LJhvf.5732$0y2.5105@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Jeffrey MacHott" <raguleader.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:1136492965.318007.53620@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> So, in an online discussion I mentioned that Haven's official language
>> was French (as I'm sure it's been mentioned as such somewhere), though
>> in matters of interstellar trade and politics they speak English like
>> everyone else does. One of the other people there mentiond that they
>> were pretty sure Haven's official language was English. He quoted a
>> bit from Echos of Honor mentioning nations that had other official
>> languages, and noted that if Haven had French as an official language,
>> it would logically be mentioned in the list (due to Haven's relative
>> importance in the books). I don't have all of my Honor Harrington
>> books with me, and even if I did, I wouldn't know where to look for a
>> reference to them speaking French.
>>
>> So, do they speak French or not? And if so, where is it mentioned?
>>
>
> Considering the time saying that anyone spoke any present day language is
> odd.
>
There's text evidence that Manticore uses a version of English. IIRC there
also comments that English had changed over the years but with effort a
Manticore or Grayson could understand written English of our time.

--
*
Paul Howard
*
New e-mail: drakbibliophile at yahoo.com
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 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

deowll wrote:

> the other hand on major trade item may well have been text files, data of
> all sorts, and recordings off all sorts.

"I Love Lucy" reruns? <G>
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

"Paul Howard" <ppaulshoward.DeleteThis@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:AZuvf.710853$xm3.460725@attbi_s21...
>
> "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:LJhvf.5732$0y2.5105@bignews2.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Jeffrey MacHott" <raguleader.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1136492965.318007.53620@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>> So, in an online discussion I mentioned that Haven's official language
>>> was French (as I'm sure it's been mentioned as such somewhere), though
>>> in matters of interstellar trade and politics they speak English like
>>> everyone else does. One of the other people there mentiond that they
>>> were pretty sure Haven's official language was English. He quoted a
>>> bit from Echos of Honor mentioning nations that had other official
>>> languages, and noted that if Haven had French as an official language,
>>> it would logically be mentioned in the list (due to Haven's relative
>>> importance in the books). I don't have all of my Honor Harrington
>>> books with me, and even if I did, I wouldn't know where to look for a
>>> reference to them speaking French.
>>>
>>> So, do they speak French or not? And if so, where is it mentioned?
>>>
>>
>> Considering the time saying that anyone spoke any present day language is
>> odd.
>>
> There's text evidence that Manticore uses a version of English. IIRC
> there also comments that English had changed over the years but with
> effort a Manticore or Grayson could understand written English of our
> time.
>
Yeah and I can read Chaucer (sp).

> --
> *
> Paul Howard
> *
> New e-mail: drakbibliophile at yahoo.com
> *
> Drak Bibliophile (Bane Of Book Rustlers), Yahoo Id DrakBibliophile
> *
> Sometimes The Dragon Wins! (That's why there are still Dragons Around)
> [Polite Dragon Smile]
> *
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

This message is not archived
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
is what happens: "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> writes on Fri, 6 Jan 2006
19:15:45 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>> At one point in "From the Highlands" someone (I think it was Kevin
>> Usher) says something like "I'll bet you dollars to donuts" and Victor
>> wonders what the heck a dollar is. But the dollar has been well
>> established as the standard Manticoran unit of currency. Victor not
>> knowing what a dollar is would be like a CIA agent not knowing what a
>> ruble is.
>>
>You're right of course. It's still a good yarn and that is what matters
>most. I think that an educated person from the time of HH might have seen
>recordings from our era that had long ago been coverted to other media. They
>might not understand what the original media was or why it was called a
>movie. I do think the information would be available if they wanted to find
>out. We know a fair amount about the tech of time frames at least as long
>ago.

IRRC, in Crown of Slaves, there is mention of newsies saying "we'll be
showing footage of the incident just as soon as we have it available." and
one of the characters wondering "why is it called "footage" when there's
nothing which uses that?"

I'd imagine much as "dial" has remained part of the lexicon, even
though we press buttons, other expressions will hang in there. As my Dad
will point out, the expression is "bran new" not "brand new" - a hold over
from when things were shipped with bran as a packing material.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

pyotr filipivich <phamp.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote
[...]
> I'd imagine much as "dial" has remained part of the lexicon, even
> though we press buttons, other expressions will hang in there. As my
Dad
> will point out, the expression is "bran new" not "brand new" - a hold
over
> from when things were shipped with bran as a packing material.

Actually that is backwards, the OED has Brande-new (cf fire-new, fresh
from the furnace) attested from 1570 and all the "bran-new" spellings
are later.

--
Mike D
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
is what happens: forkliftramp.com <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> writes
on Sat, 07 Jan 2006 19:39:35 GMT in alt.books.david-weber :
>given the borg like advance of the english language over the last
>century or two it seems likely to me that by the time we start to
>disperse into the local area other languages are most likely going to
>be just historical oddities.

Then again, suppose you get a group of colonist who, for what ever
reason, decide to go as an Ethnic Group. So you have a colony of largely
Europeans genestock, recreating "ancient" Japan, speaking Japanese, and
that good stuff.
You'd have a cultural analog to Grayson, which had been settled by one
religion, only this time as one cultural group. E.g. the Irish who settled
Armagh in Weber's story about Roger MacClintock. A couple hundred years
later, they're still Irish, not sure what they want, but willing to fight
for it.

tschus
pyotr

--
pyotr filipivich
Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

On 2006-01-08, pyotr filipivich <phamp.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:
> You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
> is what happens: forkliftramp.com <Brian_knowspam.McDonald.TakeThisOut@shaw.ca> writes
> on Sat, 07 Jan 2006 19:39:35 GMT in alt.books.david-weber :

>>given the borg like advance of the english language over the last
>>century or two it seems likely to me that by the time we start to
>>disperse into the local area other languages are most likely going to
>>be just historical oddities.

> Then again, suppose you get a group of colonist who, for what ever
> reason, decide to go as an Ethnic Group. So you have a colony of largely
> Europeans genestock, recreating "ancient" Japan, speaking Japanese, and
> that good stuff.
> You'd have a cultural analog to Grayson, which had been settled by one
> religion, only this time as one cultural group. E.g. the Irish who settled
> Armagh in Weber's story about Roger MacClintock. A couple hundred years
> later, they're still Irish, not sure what they want, but willing to fight
> for it.

And, for obivous reasons, I'm a bit interested in what will become of
a very small mention in one of the books ... a planet "Mannerheim", with
a "mr. Hurskainen" and ... well, being a Finn myself, I wouldn't find it
implausible at all to see that happen if a bunch of those of us who are
concerned about our ethnic identity went out as a group...


--
Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola.TakeThisOut@trein.ntc.nokia.com>
#include <disclaimer.h>
#Not speaking for my employer. No warranty. YMMV.
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

On 2006-01-06, Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net> wrote:
> "Paul Howard" <ppaulshoward.DeleteThis@insightbb.com> wrote:
>> "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> > "Jeffrey MacHott" <raguleader.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> >> So, in an online discussion I mentioned that Haven's official language
>> >> was French (as I'm sure it's been mentioned as such somewhere), though
>> >> in matters of interstellar trade and politics they speak English like
......
>> >> So, do they speak French or not? And if so, where is it mentioned?
>> >>
>> >
>> > Considering the time saying that anyone spoke any present day language is
>> > odd.
>> >
>> There's text evidence that Manticore uses a version of English. IIRC there
>> also comments that English had changed over the years but with effort a
>> Manticore or Grayson could understand written English of our time.
>
> It has been stated in the books that English (or any other language) has
> changed very little since the invention of sound recording.

Some languages have changed very little in longer timespans too. Like,
Icelandic ... and Faroe.

I do feel that the slowboat era was a bit short for that to be a good
analogy, however - Icelandic was the result of a bunch of Norsemen
settling on the island, out of touch with most others...

> We've seen
> Honor reading Horatio Hornblower books to relax, and she doesn't strike
> me as the sort who, in a modern setting, would read Chaucer for fun.

Why not? There are a lot of us who read completely _foreign_ language
fiction, for fun. An archaic form of your own language, or something
closely related, should be less of a barrier.

Back when I was a draftee, a significant proportion of the fiction read
in the barracks was in foreign languages like English ... yes,
Hornblower too. And we were an inland infantry/armor unit.

> On the face of it, if the language is changing, you would expect there
> to be a bigger difference between Manticoran English, and Grayson
> English than there is between what either version, and what's spoken
> now, considering how long Grayson was completely out of touch (or only
> occasionally in touch) with the rest of galactic civilization. While
> galactic standard English changed in one direction, the version spoken
> by Graysons would have been moving in another.

Grayson, on the other hand, could not be expected to not have had a similar
process as Iceland - that is, essentially no change. Duh, there are even
environmental similarities ...

> There are some glitches in the language continuity (largely between what
> Weber (who, other than some comments saying it hasn't changed all that
> much, mostly ignores it) has written himself, and the ancillary stories
> written by others.)

How many foreign languages does he know and how often does he travel
outside his primary language area?

Even Tolkien had problems with keeping that straight and he was as
much of a linguistics professional as they come.


--
Mikko Nahkola <mnahkola.DeleteThis@trein.ntc.nokia.com>
#include <disclaimer.h>
#Not speaking for my employer. No warranty. YMMV.
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

"pyotr filipivich" <phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:4o8ur11gbs68vvr9c6971hboj2tesk8sn4@4ax.com...
> You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
> is what happens: "deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> writes on Fri, 6 Jan 2006
> 19:15:45 -0600 in alt.books.david-weber :
>>
>>> At one point in "From the Highlands" someone (I think it was Kevin
>>> Usher) says something like "I'll bet you dollars to donuts" and Victor
>>> wonders what the heck a dollar is. But the dollar has been well
>>> established as the standard Manticoran unit of currency. Victor not
>>> knowing what a dollar is would be like a CIA agent not knowing what a
>>> ruble is.
>>>
>>You're right of course. It's still a good yarn and that is what matters
>>most. I think that an educated person from the time of HH might have seen
>>recordings from our era that had long ago been coverted to other media.
>>They
>>might not understand what the original media was or why it was called a
>>movie. I do think the information would be available if they wanted to
>>find
>>out. We know a fair amount about the tech of time frames at least as long
>>ago.
>
> IRRC, in Crown of Slaves, there is mention of newsies saying "we'll be
> showing footage of the incident just as soon as we have it available." and
> one of the characters wondering "why is it called "footage" when there's
> nothing which uses that?"
>
> I'd imagine much as "dial" has remained part of the lexicon, even
> though we press buttons, other expressions will hang in there. As my Dad
> will point out, the expression is "bran new" not "brand new" - a hold over
> from when things were shipped with bran as a packing material.
>
> tschus
> pyotr
>
Interesting.

> --
> pyotr filipivich
> Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
> Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

"Michelle Steiner" <michelle.RemoveThis@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-B5EF32.19264106012006@news.west.cox.net...
> In article <zqEvf.1045$__4.150@bignews1.bellsouth.net>,
> "deowll" <deowll.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
>> > There's text evidence that Manticore uses a version of English.
>> > IIRC there also comments that English had changed over the years
>> > but with effort a Manticore or Grayson could understand written
>> > English of our time.
>> >
>> Yeah and I can read Chaucer (sp).
>
> My daughter can.


I can sort of understand it too at least most of time if I think about it
enough.

>
> --
> Stop Mad Cowboy Disease: Impeach the son of a Bush.
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

"Offbreed" <offbreed_106 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:II2dnVINqMgTpCLenZ2dnUVZ_v2dnZ2d@scnresearch.com...
> deowll wrote:
>
>> the other hand on major trade item may well have been text files, data of
>> all sorts, and recordings off all sorts.
>
> "I Love Lucy" reruns? <G>


I wonder if they could pick up the original broadcasts as they travel across
the galaxy at the speed of light?
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language? 

"pyotr filipivich" <phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:8o63s1d9tm5g7ccrlq4a64kakm4ungt2pl@4ax.com...
> You take one lousy week off to join Thorax at the Elvis concert, and this
> is what happens: forkliftramp.com <Brian_knowspam.McDonald DeleteThis @shaw.ca> writes
> on Sat, 07 Jan 2006 19:39:35 GMT in alt.books.david-weber :
>>given the borg like advance of the english language over the last
>>century or two it seems likely to me that by the time we start to
>>disperse into the local area other languages are most likely going to
>>be just historical oddities.
>
> Then again, suppose you get a group of colonist who, for what ever
> reason, decide to go as an Ethnic Group. So you have a colony of largely
> Europeans genestock, recreating "ancient" Japan, speaking Japanese, and
> that good stuff.
> You'd have a cultural analog to Grayson, which had been settled by one
> religion, only this time as one cultural group. E.g. the Irish who
> settled
> Armagh in Weber's story about Roger MacClintock. A couple hundred years
> later, they're still Irish, not sure what they want, but willing to fight
> for it.
>
> tschus
> pyotr
>
> --

Jewish

Irish Sctch, and Wales celtic

Bantu

Native American tribes buying a planet, etc.

> pyotr filipivich
> Typos, Grammos and da kind are the result of ragin hormones
> Fortesque Consulting: Teaching Pigs to Sing since 1968.
 >> Stay informed about: Haven's official language?