Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling

"Gunfighter40" <waltbj01.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:1158717011.290793.98470@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> IMHO the human body was designed to be a light-weight cursorial hunter.
> IE, one who runs the game down when it's time to eat. No body hair,
> good lung capacity, carnivorous, hunter's eyes, springy feet. Neither
> the spine, the hips nor the knees and feet were designed to carry heavy
> loads for long periods of time. People doing just this for years on end
> will rpt will have problems with loss of cartilage in joints as they
> get older. Ask old runners how their knees are, for instance. Mine are
> shot; my 220 pounds (back then!)beat them down. . . . but then we're
> not evolved to live as long as we do now.
> Walt BJ
>

I'd say 45 to fifty and then you were cat food judging by the teeth marks
found on a lot of bones. By chance I noted some comparisons between He and
Hs and Hsn pelvises. It turns out the old guys, He, had a ledge or expansion
over the hip joint. They seem to have been at least somewhat better built
for heavy loads than moderns including Hsn which is sort of a shock because
Hsn were ultra heavy duty in just about every other way you could name.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"Offbreed" <offbreed_106.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:W7ednSZHCtYOXI3YnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@scnresearch.com...
> deowll wrote:
>
>> Different mod for HH. Seriously. You might note a description of her
>> beside the others. In this case they were trying to keep the weight down
>> and the appearence was a lot more normal. The members of her family are
>> not described as muscular giants that looked like high g people.
>
> She was supposed to have gotten the mod through her father. A mod that
> made the Myardhals her mother's size, would not have drawn much notice,
> IMO.

I never suggested otherwise.


He father was is a well built man of above average height. Nothing is said
about any of them looking like the hulk. Looking like the hulk is not part
of the mode found in his family and others who have the same mode.

What is said many times is that HH is much slimmer than than any of the
other high g people we read about who have other modes or who are the
product of selection including female guards and Kaja. In one instance DW
said one female guard didn't even suspect HH was high g. In this respect HH
is more like the super soldiers from the genetic war. They were strong but
they could walk into a crowd without everybody wanting to know who the
mountain of muscle was.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

deowll wrote:
> "Offbreed" <offbreed_106 RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:W7ednSZHCtYOXI3YnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@scnresearch.com...
>> deowll wrote:
>>
>>> Different mod for HH. Seriously. You might note a description of her
>>> beside the others. In this case they were trying to keep the weight down
>>> and the appearence was a lot more normal. The members of her family are
>>> not described as muscular giants that looked like high g people.
>> She was supposed to have gotten the mod through her father. A mod that
>> made the Myardhals her mother's size, would not have drawn much notice,
>> IMO.
>
> I never suggested otherwise.
>
>
> He father was is a well built man of above average height. Nothing is said
> about any of them looking like the hulk. Looking like the hulk is not part
> of the mode found in his family and others who have the same mode.
>
> What is said many times is that HH is much slimmer than than any of the
> other high g people we read about who have other modes or who are the
> product of selection including female guards and Kaja. In one instance DW
> said one female guard didn't even suspect HH was high g. In this respect HH
> is more like the super soldiers from the genetic war. They were strong but
> they could walk into a crowd without everybody wanting to know who the
> mountain of muscle was.

Wasn't arguing that part. I just think a shorter model would have been
easier engineering.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:c5mQg.12528$8s6.986@bignews4.bellsouth.net:

>
> "Gunfighter40" <waltbj01.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:1158717011.290793.98470@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> IMHO the human body was designed to be a light-weight cursorial
>> hunter. IE, one who runs the game down when it's time to eat. No body
>> hair, good lung capacity, carnivorous, hunter's eyes, springy feet.
>> Neither the spine, the hips nor the knees and feet were designed to
>> carry heavy loads for long periods of time. People doing just this
>> for years on end will rpt will have problems with loss of cartilage
>> in joints as they get older. Ask old runners how their knees are, for
>> instance. Mine are shot; my 220 pounds (back then!)beat them down. .
>> . . but then we're not evolved to live as long as we do now.
>> Walt BJ
>>
>
> I'd say 45 to fifty and then you were cat food judging by the teeth
> marks found on a lot of bones. By chance I noted some comparisons
> between He and Hs and Hsn pelvises. It turns out the old guys, He, had
> a ledge or expansion over the hip joint. They seem to have been at
> least somewhat better built for heavy loads than moderns including Hsn
> which is sort of a shock because Hsn were ultra heavy duty in just
> about every other way you could name.
>
>
>
>

40 to 45 seems to be the age where having been an athelete all your
life really catches up to you. I'm 39 and I'm just now having minor
issues with a couple of joints (other than my right knee which ummm,
failed catastrophically during a basketball game in my early 30's.
Ruptured ACL, ripped MCL and the meniscus had an inch long chunk torn
out of it) I can still hike long distances up steep grades rather
comfortably, but I can't run long distances anymore. Similarly - my
dad was in his 40's when he started moving really stiffly when getting
up after a long time in a chair (he also played city league ball into
his 30's and rode horses into his 40's). My mom also started paying the
price of being a competitive horse-woman (hunter-jumpers) in her 40's
with back problems.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"Sean Kennedy" <therealorang.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9844CCCCCB709therealorangyahoocom@216.196.97.136...
> "deowll" <deowll.RemoveThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in
> news:c5mQg.12528$8s6.986@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
>
>>
>> "Gunfighter40" <waltbj01.RemoveThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158717011.290793.98470@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> IMHO the human body was designed to be a light-weight cursorial
>>> hunter. IE, one who runs the game down when it's time to eat. No body
>>> hair, good lung capacity, carnivorous, hunter's eyes, springy feet.
>>> Neither the spine, the hips nor the knees and feet were designed to
>>> carry heavy loads for long periods of time. People doing just this
>>> for years on end will rpt will have problems with loss of cartilage
>>> in joints as they get older. Ask old runners how their knees are, for
>>> instance. Mine are shot; my 220 pounds (back then!)beat them down. .
>>> . . but then we're not evolved to live as long as we do now.

Sorry to jump in, but human's colour vision is more suited to picking ripe
fruit than hunting down animals, our teeth (flat blade incissors for cutting
and flat-topped molars for chewing), stomach (less acidic than a
carnivore's) and intestines (much longer than a carnivore's) have more in
common with a herbivore than a carnivore. Humans are "opportunitistic"
omnivores - we only eat meat because we worked out easy ways of catching
animals - i.e. tools, then domestication of animals.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"Offbreed" <offbreed_106 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8d6dnfvNHoGnZozYnZ2dnUVZ_qSdnZ2d@scnresearch.com...
> deowll wrote:
>> "Offbreed" <offbreed_106 DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:W7ednSZHCtYOXI3YnZ2dnUVZ_t6dnZ2d@scnresearch.com...
>>> deowll wrote:
>>>
>>>> Different mod for HH. Seriously. You might note a description of her
>>>> beside the others. In this case they were trying to keep the weight
>>>> down and the appearence was a lot more normal. The members of her
>>>> family are not described as muscular giants that looked like high g
>>>> people.
>>> She was supposed to have gotten the mod through her father. A mod that
>>> made the Myardhals her mother's size, would not have drawn much notice,
>>> IMO.
>>
>> I never suggested otherwise.
>>
>>
>> He father was is a well built man of above average height. Nothing is
>> said about any of them looking like the hulk. Looking like the hulk is
>> not part of the mode found in his family and others who have the same
>> mode.
>>
>> What is said many times is that HH is much slimmer than than any of the
>> other high g people we read about who have other modes or who are the
>> product of selection including female guards and Kaja. In one instance DW
>> said one female guard didn't even suspect HH was high g. In this respect
>> HH is more like the super soldiers from the genetic war. They were strong
>> but they could walk into a crowd without everybody wanting to know who
>> the mountain of muscle was.
>
> Wasn't arguing that part. I just think a shorter model would have been
> easier engineering.

If you will settle for short and blocky it is dirt simple compared to going
big. A small person for all practical purposes is living under low gravity.
Someone about four feet tall with a heavy frame ought to be able to handle a
great deal more than one gravity. Throw in some better bracing at a few
locations and I'd say they ought to be able to handle two gravities and
still look at least as human as the mythic dwarves. Okay you would most
likely need to change everything in some subtle way but they would still
look like a member of the species. Even if you couldn't bioengineer it all
just going short and blocky ought to be enough to let them survive and
selection acting on variation over time would quickly improve the more
critical weaknesses.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"Sean Kennedy" <therealorang.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9844CCCCCB709therealorangyahoocom@216.196.97.136...
> "deowll" <deowll.TakeThisOut@bellsouth.net> wrote in
> news:c5mQg.12528$8s6.986@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
>
>>
>> "Gunfighter40" <waltbj01.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> news:1158717011.290793.98470@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>> IMHO the human body was designed to be a light-weight cursorial
>>> hunter. IE, one who runs the game down when it's time to eat. No body
>>> hair, good lung capacity, carnivorous, hunter's eyes, springy feet.
>>> Neither the spine, the hips nor the knees and feet were designed to
>>> carry heavy loads for long periods of time. People doing just this
>>> for years on end will rpt will have problems with loss of cartilage
>>> in joints as they get older. Ask old runners how their knees are, for
>>> instance. Mine are shot; my 220 pounds (back then!)beat them down. .
>>> . . but then we're not evolved to live as long as we do now.
>>> Walt BJ
>>>
>>
>> I'd say 45 to fifty and then you were cat food judging by the teeth
>> marks found on a lot of bones. By chance I noted some comparisons
>> between He and Hs and Hsn pelvises. It turns out the old guys, He, had
>> a ledge or expansion over the hip joint. They seem to have been at
>> least somewhat better built for heavy loads than moderns including Hsn
>> which is sort of a shock because Hsn were ultra heavy duty in just
>> about every other way you could name.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> 40 to 45 seems to be the age where having been an athelete all your
> life really catches up to you. I'm 39 and I'm just now having minor
> issues with a couple of joints (other than my right knee which ummm,
> failed catastrophically during a basketball game in my early 30's.
> Ruptured ACL, ripped MCL and the meniscus had an inch long chunk torn
> out of it) I can still hike long distances up steep grades rather
> comfortably, but I can't run long distances anymore. Similarly - my
> dad was in his 40's when he started moving really stiffly when getting
> up after a long time in a chair (he also played city league ball into
> his 30's and rode horses into his 40's). My mom also started paying the
> price of being a competitive horse-woman (hunter-jumpers) in her 40's
> with back problems.


Select individuals with the right genes and maybe some luck seem to be able
to stretch this out but if you seriously push your body I'd say you are
right on the money. You will suffer significant pain and disability starting
sometime in your early 40s.

The bleep is that you disintegrate if you aren't fairly active.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in
news:JYHQg.27052$vX5.7110@bignews8.bellsouth.net:

>
> "Sean Kennedy" <therealorang DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:Xns9844CCCCCB709therealorangyahoocom@216.196.97.136...
>> "deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in
>> news:c5mQg.12528$8s6.986@bignews4.bellsouth.net:
>>
>>>
>>> "Gunfighter40" <waltbj01 DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote in message
>>> news:1158717011.290793.98470@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> IMHO the human body was designed to be a light-weight cursorial
>>>> hunter. IE, one who runs the game down when it's time to eat. No
>>>> body hair, good lung capacity, carnivorous, hunter's eyes, springy
>>>> feet. Neither the spine, the hips nor the knees and feet were
>>>> designed to carry heavy loads for long periods of time. People
>>>> doing just this for years on end will rpt will have problems with
>>>> loss of cartilage in joints as they get older. Ask old runners how
>>>> their knees are, for instance. Mine are shot; my 220 pounds (back
>>>> then!)beat them down. . . . but then we're not evolved to live as
>>>> long as we do now. Walt BJ
>>>>
>>>
>>> I'd say 45 to fifty and then you were cat food judging by the teeth
>>> marks found on a lot of bones. By chance I noted some comparisons
>>> between He and Hs and Hsn pelvises. It turns out the old guys, He,
>>> had a ledge or expansion over the hip joint. They seem to have been
>>> at least somewhat better built for heavy loads than moderns
>>> including Hsn which is sort of a shock because Hsn were ultra heavy
>>> duty in just about every other way you could name.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> 40 to 45 seems to be the age where having been an athelete all your
>> life really catches up to you. I'm 39 and I'm just now having minor
>> issues with a couple of joints (other than my right knee which ummm,
>> failed catastrophically during a basketball game in my early 30's.
>> Ruptured ACL, ripped MCL and the meniscus had an inch long chunk torn
>> out of it) I can still hike long distances up steep grades rather
>> comfortably, but I can't run long distances anymore. Similarly - my
>> dad was in his 40's when he started moving really stiffly when
>> getting up after a long time in a chair (he also played city league
>> ball into his 30's and rode horses into his 40's). My mom also
>> started paying the price of being a competitive horse-woman
>> (hunter-jumpers) in her 40's with back problems.
>
>
> Select individuals with the right genes and maybe some luck seem to be
> able to stretch this out but if you seriously push your body I'd say
> you are right on the money. You will suffer significant pain and
> disability starting sometime in your early 40s.
>
> The bleep is that you disintegrate if you aren't fairly active.
>
>
>
>

Yep - the best way to combat the aches and pains of aging seems
to be working out regularly - I put 45-60 minutes in each morning
and walk the mile to and from work and only long periods of
immobility (long car trips, movies) make my knee lock up.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"deowll" <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:OM0Qg.11382$8s6.3713@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Paul F Austin" <pfaustin RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:wm2Pg.4171$GY5.725@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Gunfighter40" <waltbj01 RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote
>>> Gnome? Feet, ankles, knees and hip joints, spines; all would require
>>> some natural evolution to bear up under the stresses of every day
>>> living. For instance, our pro athletes who after retirement creak
>>> about, their bodies beat down by the abnormal stresses experienced
>>> during their playing career. Bodies will adapt and evolve to meet the
>>> environment. Viz: Inuit in the cold (stockiness) and Chileans (chest
>>> capacity, more hemoglobin) in the Andes, pygmies in the deep jungle
>>> (dearth of food) , and those wee people on Flores Island (probably
>>> food) so recently in the news. 1.3 G doesn't sound like much but that
>>> would load up a 150 pounder with 45 more pounds 100% of the time.
>>> Creak, snap crackle pop..
>>> Walt BJ
>>
>> The pygmies are sized by thermal management requirements. The equatorial
>> triple canopy jungle doesn't get real hot but the humidity is always
>> 100%.
>> The pygmies maximize surface to volume ratio by the same square-cube law.
>>
>>
>
> So how does this explain big G who lives at the same location while
> wearing a fur coat?
>
> My understanding is pygmy size makes it much easier to move swiftly and
> silently through the jungle. That was a thought from someone about six
> feet who was having a hard time keeping up, made too much racket, and kept
> hurting himself.

Actually, gorillas _don't_ live where pygmies do. Africa is a big place. H
Sap has a broader climatic range than just about any other species.

I got the notion that pygmies are sized by thermal management from "The
Great Human Diaspora", a book on the movement of humans across the globe in
early times. People in other places are optimized thermally as well- Inuit
come to mind.. The "better hunter" hypothesis is difficult to support since
there's not a lot of evidence. Pygmies are not only short but also slender.
"Better hunter" wouldn't do that. In real (evolutionary) life, optimization
to climate and circumstances works slowly (duh) but also works within the
canvas of H Sap. However convenient it might be, we don't find humans
growing fur coats for example.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

Paul F Austin wrote:
In real (evolutionary) life, optimization
> to climate and circumstances works slowly (duh) but also works within the
> canvas of H Sap. However convenient it might be, we don't find humans
> growing fur coats for example.
>
>
Well, there's a family with exactly that problem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertrichosis.

I do not think they would count their hair as "convenient".

And there are men with a surprising amount of body hair.

Oddly, I was just considering how humans could survive a sudden
glaciation, or even a "snowball earth" scenario.

http://www.snowballearth.org/

The above site speculates that a dino killer would throw Earth into a
snowball. Kind of interesting to speculate how a group, such as the US
military, might go about surviving such an impact and setting up
colonies after the event. They'd need a few days lead time, anyhow.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"Paul F Austin" <pfaustin DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:EA8Rg.8949$zF5.342@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "deowll" <deowll DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:OM0Qg.11382$8s6.3713@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Paul F Austin" <pfaustin DeleteThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:wm2Pg.4171$GY5.725@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>> "Gunfighter40" <waltbj01 DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote
>>>> Gnome? Feet, ankles, knees and hip joints, spines; all would require
>>>> some natural evolution to bear up under the stresses of every day
>>>> living. For instance, our pro athletes who after retirement creak
>>>> about, their bodies beat down by the abnormal stresses experienced
>>>> during their playing career. Bodies will adapt and evolve to meet the
>>>> environment. Viz: Inuit in the cold (stockiness) and Chileans (chest
>>>> capacity, more hemoglobin) in the Andes, pygmies in the deep jungle
>>>> (dearth of food) , and those wee people on Flores Island (probably
>>>> food) so recently in the news. 1.3 G doesn't sound like much but that
>>>> would load up a 150 pounder with 45 more pounds 100% of the time.
>>>> Creak, snap crackle pop..
>>>> Walt BJ
>>>
>>> The pygmies are sized by thermal management requirements. The equatorial
>>> triple canopy jungle doesn't get real hot but the humidity is always
>>> 100%.
>>> The pygmies maximize surface to volume ratio by the same square-cube
>>> law.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> So how does this explain big G who lives at the same location while
>> wearing a fur coat?
>>
>> My understanding is pygmy size makes it much easier to move swiftly and
>> silently through the jungle. That was a thought from someone about six
>> feet who was having a hard time keeping up, made too much racket, and
>> kept hurting himself.
>
> Actually, gorillas _don't_ live where pygmies do. Africa is a big place. H
> Sap has a broader climatic range than just about any other species.

I don't know where your your data but you need to do a better check because
these two populations most certainly do occupy the same space. Pygmies
aren't H Sap in generic and the fact that H Saps has a very broad range
doesn't mean squat. African Pygmies have a very limited range and may be
about as threatened as the apes.

http://www.berggorilla.org/english/gjournal/texte/18culture.html

If you don't like that site do your own search.

There may be a very few spotty examples of Pygmies out side of Africa but
those are small and isolated populations as well and they aren't all that
closely related to the ones in Africa.


>
> I got the notion that pygmies are sized by thermal management from "The
> Great Human Diaspora", a book on the movement of humans across the globe
> in early times. People in other places are optimized thermally as well-
> Inuit come to mind.. The "better hunter" hypothesis is difficult to
> support since there's not a lot of evidence. Pygmies are not only short
> but also slender.

Apparently we have never seen the same pictures and films. They weren't fat
but they were square shouldered and muscular. Slender, no. Scale one of them
up and they could play football.

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.history.umd.edu/Facu.../Landau



http://www.mendosa.com/pygmy.jpg


> "Better hunter" wouldn't do that. In real (evolutionary) life,
> optimization to climate and circumstances works slowly (duh) but also
> works within the canvas of H Sap. However convenient it might be, we don't
> find humans growing fur coats for example.

Some populations are more hairy than others. A few individuals have body
hair like head hair but the condition is a mutation that does not seem to be
favored.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:m4HRg.9207$zF5.747@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>
> "Paul F Austin" <pfaustin.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:EA8Rg.8949$zF5.342@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "deowll" <deowll.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:OM0Qg.11382$8s6.3713@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>> "Paul F Austin" <pfaustin.DeleteThis@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>> news:wm2Pg.4171$GY5.725@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Gunfighter40" <waltbj01.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote
>>>>> Gnome? Feet, ankles, knees and hip joints, spines; all would require
>>>>> some natural evolution to bear up under the stresses of every day
>>>>> living. For instance, our pro athletes who after retirement creak
>>>>> about, their bodies beat down by the abnormal stresses experienced
>>>>> during their playing career. Bodies will adapt and evolve to meet the
>>>>> environment. Viz: Inuit in the cold (stockiness) and Chileans (chest
>>>>> capacity, more hemoglobin) in the Andes, pygmies in the deep jungle
>>>>> (dearth of food) , and those wee people on Flores Island (probably
>>>>> food) so recently in the news. 1.3 G doesn't sound like much but that
>>>>> would load up a 150 pounder with 45 more pounds 100% of the time.
>>>>> Creak, snap crackle pop..
>>>>> Walt BJ
>>>>
>>>> The pygmies are sized by thermal management requirements. The
>>>> equatorial
>>>> triple canopy jungle doesn't get real hot but the humidity is always
>>>> 100%.
>>>> The pygmies maximize surface to volume ratio by the same square-cube
>>>> law.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> So how does this explain big G who lives at the same location while
>>> wearing a fur coat?
>>>
>>> My understanding is pygmy size makes it much easier to move swiftly and
>>> silently through the jungle. That was a thought from someone about six
>>> feet who was having a hard time keeping up, made too much racket, and
>>> kept hurting himself.
>>
>> Actually, gorillas _don't_ live where pygmies do. Africa is a big place.
>> H Sap has a broader climatic range than just about any other species.
>
> I don't know where your your data but you need to do a better check
> because these two populations most certainly do occupy the same space.
> Pygmies aren't H Sap in generic

Huh? Pygmies are Homo sapiens sapiens like you and me and the guy over
there. They interbreed with local standard-size tribes.

> and the fact that H Saps has a very broad range doesn't mean squat.
> African Pygmies have a very limited range

which, however, is part of the Homo sapiens range.

> and may be about as threatened as the apes.

That may be true, culturally/genetically, in time

>
> http://www.berggorilla.org/english/gjournal/texte/18culture.html
>
> If you don't like that site do your own search.
>
> There may be a very few spotty examples of Pygmies out side of Africa but
> those are small and isolated populations as well and they aren't all that
> closely related to the ones in Africa.

The Negritos of SE asia, such as the Andaman islanders, are pygmy as well;
the term refers only to genetically determined short stature, not a specific
group (which should be identified by location or linguistic name).

>
>
>>
>> I got the notion that pygmies are sized by thermal management from "The
>> Great Human Diaspora", a book on the movement of humans across the globe
>> in early times. People in other places are optimized thermally as well-
>> Inuit come to mind.. The "better hunter" hypothesis is difficult to
>> support since there's not a lot of evidence. Pygmies are not only short
>> but also slender.
>
> Apparently we have never seen the same pictures and films. They weren't
> fat but they were square shouldered and muscular. Slender, no. Scale one
> of them up and they could play football.
>
> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.history.umd.edu/Facu.../Landau
>
>
>
> http://www.mendosa.com/pygmy.jpg
>
>
>> "Better hunter" wouldn't do that. In real (evolutionary) life,
>> optimization to climate and circumstances works slowly (duh) but also
>> works within the canvas of H Sap. However convenient it might be, we
>> don't find humans growing fur coats for example.
>
> Some populations are more hairy than others. A few individuals have body
> hair like head hair but the condition is a mutation that does not seem to
> be favored.
>

There's overlap in the range of the Western Lowland Gorilla and rainforest
pygmies, or at least was at one time.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling 

"gS49" <gersmith00 RemoveThis @verizon.net> wrote in message
news:LrZRg.2328$Kw1.175@trnddc05...
>
> "deowll" <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> news:m4HRg.9207$zF5.747@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>>
>> "Paul F Austin" <pfaustin RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>> news:EA8Rg.8949$zF5.342@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
>>>
>>> "deowll" <deowll RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>> news:OM0Qg.11382$8s6.3713@bignews4.bellsouth.net...
>>>>
>>>> "Paul F Austin" <pfaustin RemoveThis @bellsouth.net> wrote in message
>>>> news:wm2Pg.4171$GY5.725@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Gunfighter40" <waltbj01 RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote
>>>>>> Gnome? Feet, ankles, knees and hip joints, spines; all would require
>>>>>> some natural evolution to bear up under the stresses of every day
>>>>>> living. For instance, our pro athletes who after retirement creak
>>>>>> about, their bodies beat down by the abnormal stresses experienced
>>>>>> during their playing career. Bodies will adapt and evolve to meet the
>>>>>> environment. Viz: Inuit in the cold (stockiness) and Chileans (chest
>>>>>> capacity, more hemoglobin) in the Andes, pygmies in the deep jungle
>>>>>> (dearth of food) , and those wee people on Flores Island (probably
>>>>>> food) so recently in the news. 1.3 G doesn't sound like much but
>>>>>> that
>>>>>> would load up a 150 pounder with 45 more pounds 100% of the time.
>>>>>> Creak, snap crackle pop..
>>>>>> Walt BJ
>>>>>
>>>>> The pygmies are sized by thermal management requirements. The
>>>>> equatorial
>>>>> triple canopy jungle doesn't get real hot but the humidity is always
>>>>> 100%.
>>>>> The pygmies maximize surface to volume ratio by the same square-cube
>>>>> law.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So how does this explain big G who lives at the same location while
>>>> wearing a fur coat?
>>>>
>>>> My understanding is pygmy size makes it much easier to move swiftly and
>>>> silently through the jungle. That was a thought from someone about six
>>>> feet who was having a hard time keeping up, made too much racket, and
>>>> kept hurting himself.
>>>
>>> Actually, gorillas _don't_ live where pygmies do. Africa is a big place.
>>> H Sap has a broader climatic range than just about any other species.
>>
>> I don't know where your your data but you need to do a better check
>> because these two populations most certainly do occupy the same space.
>> Pygmies aren't H Sap in generic
>
> Huh? Pygmies are Homo sapiens sapiens like you and me and the guy over
> there. They interbreed with local standard-size tribes.

They have a host of genetic traits that fit them for their life style. While
your observation may be correct they are being displaced and their genetic
legacy is vanishing. The reason could be as simple as being ill suited to
village life and work in the open under a hot tropical sun. The bottom line
is that in the villages people with pygmy genes do not prosper. They are
vanishing rather than being assimilated.


>
>> and the fact that H Saps has a very broad range doesn't mean squat.
>> African Pygmies have a very limited range
>
> which, however, is part of the Homo sapiens range.
>
>> and may be about as threatened as the apes.
>
> That may be true, culturally/genetically, in time
>
>>
>> http://www.berggorilla.org/english/gjournal/texte/18culture.html
>>
>> If you don't like that site do your own search.
>>
>> There may be a very few spotty examples of Pygmies out side of Africa but
>> those are small and isolated populations as well and they aren't all that
>> closely related to the ones in Africa.
>
> The Negritos of SE asia, such as the Andaman islanders, are pygmy as
> well; the term refers only to genetically determined short stature, not a
> specific group (which should be identified by location or linguistic
> name).

And in this case about as unrelated as any two groups of humans. Even the
genetic bases for their small size is different. The islanders may well be a
sample of the dwarfing found in many island species and with a very limited
habitat they have never been numerious.

>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I got the notion that pygmies are sized by thermal management from "The
>>> Great Human Diaspora", a book on the movement of humans across the globe
>>> in early times. People in other places are optimized thermally as well-
>>> Inuit come to mind.. The "better hunter" hypothesis is difficult to
>>> support since there's not a lot of evidence. Pygmies are not only short
>>> but also slender.
>>
>> Apparently we have never seen the same pictures and films. They weren't
>> fat but they were square shouldered and muscular. Slender, no. Scale one
>> of them up and they could play football.
>>
>> http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.history.umd.edu/Facu.../Landau
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.mendosa.com/pygmy.jpg
>>
>>
>>> "Better hunter" wouldn't do that. In real (evolutionary) life,
>>> optimization to climate and circumstances works slowly (duh) but also
>>> works within the canvas of H Sap. However convenient it might be, we
>>> don't find humans growing fur coats for example.
>>
>> Some populations are more hairy than others. A few individuals have body
>> hair like head hair but the condition is a mutation that does not seem to
>> be favored.
>>
>
> There's overlap in the range of the Western Lowland Gorilla and rainforest
> pygmies, or at least was at one time.

Nice of you to notice. There is a lot of information on this though as one
source noted the only way to know what the pygmies really thought was to go
with them into the bush and hope they told you the truth about the
relationship between the two species as they saw it. Of course most groups
have privilaged information they aren't about to share with outsiders. It
can also be fun to tell tall tales to gullible types.
 >> Stay informed about: Heavy-Worlders and the square-cube scaling