Welcome to BookForumz.com!
FAQFAQ      ProfileProfile    Private MessagesPrivate Messages   Log inLog in

Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge

 
   Book Forums (Home) -> Iain Banks RSS
Next:  Contacts  
Author Message
user401

External


Since: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 2



(Msg. 1) Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2003 1:43 pm
Post subject: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge
Archived from groups: alt>books>iain-banks (more info?)

I'm just reading _tB_, more or less side-by-side with the recent not
very good Czech translation, and I must say that I can't really blame
the translator for misunderstanding or leaving ut at least some of the
things he did [1]. Especially those stream-of-consciousness passages
are much worse than the barbarian's spelling which, after all,
requires just shifting a mental gear and from then on you can go quite
mechanically although slowly (at least for the most part, I was at a
loss several times), while the narrator's monologue is deliriously
disjointed and you are expected to _get_ a joke, pun, association, and
I keep failing.

To give just a couple examples offhand, at the beginning of
_Oligocene_: "... you don't get anything for nothing (although, of
course, there are _margins_, which come pretty damn close)." Does he
mean margin of profit, surplus value (in reference to his left-wing
views, and also later becoming a capitalist in spite of himself)? And
a paragraph further on, after an explanation how all heavy atoms are
debris of long-ago supernovas: "we, all our systems and this single
system, are the gathered silt of ancient explosions, dying stars from
that first birth, detonating in the silence to send their shrapnel
gases spinning, swarming, collecting, forming (beat that, mean
'magined monks)." What imagined monks, by heck? The only thing that
occurs to me is Pratchett's "Listening Monks of the Ramtops" who
believe "that the universe was started with ... a piece of music"
which certainly isn't the right answer Smile

Does anybody have any ideas? Damn it all, if there's a book which
would deserve online annotations more than all comics together, _tB_
is it. (And yes, I know of Rich Puchalsky's posts; impressive stuff -
I found there things which I was too blind or lazy to notice myself -
but not quite what I need.) This reminds me another thing - is it ever
said (or implied) unequivocally in what relation the directions
Up/Down-river and City/Kingdom are? I. e. on the real Forth Bridge,
when looking downstream the city is on the right side, but I haven't
noticed if this, or the opposite, is said about the Bridge as well.

Thanks,

--
Jan Vanek jr.

[1] Although there's still a lot of unforgivable schoolboy errors
left; how do you think "They drank, smoked and screwed together, and
tripped together a couple of times; she took him round museums and
galleries and to her parents' house" was rendered? He has no idea what
"got the munchies" means, either.

 >> Stay informed about: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge 
Back to top
Login to vote
rpuchalsky

External


Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 37



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2003 6:49 pm
Post subject: Re: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Jan Vanek jr." <jan.vanek.jr.TakeThisOut@seznam.cz> wrote:
 > I'm just reading _tB_, more or less side-by-side with the recent not
 > very good Czech translation,
[...]
 > gases spinning, swarming, collecting, forming (beat that, mean
 > 'magined monks)." What imagined monks, by heck?

My best guess there is that it's short for "mean imagined monks" in the
sense of "monks with poor imagination" -- he's contrasting the version(s) of
cosmogeny formed by religions with those of science, and finding that
science has a wilder and more interesting story. As for why monks rather
than priests, well, alliteration.

I don't have any ideas about his comment about things being almost free on
the margin.

 > Does anybody have any ideas? Damn it all, if there's a book which
 > would deserve online annotations more than all comics together, _tB_
 > is it. (And yes, I know of Rich Puchalsky's posts; impressive stuff -
 > I found there things which I was too blind or lazy to notice myself -
 > but not quite what I need.)

Well, unfortunately you want an annotation that no one is likely to produce.
I kept trying not to go overboard in my earlier series on _The Bridge_, and
left out many things that I could have included. As a result, the series is
finished and more or less readable. I started to go just a bit longer in my
series on _Use of Weapons_, and I'm currently almost 2/3 of the way through
after more than a year, with the preceding posts requiring a lot of editing
before one could expect them to be read as a group.

Oh, and if there are any volunteer editors out there, feel free to have a go
at it Smile.

 > This reminds me another thing - is it ever
 > said (or implied) unequivocally in what relation the directions
 > Up/Down-river and City/Kingdom are? I. e. on the real Forth Bridge,
 > when looking downstream the city is on the right side, but I haven't
 > noticed if this, or the opposite, is said about the Bridge as well.

Yes. Some of the posts in response to my earlier series pointed out that
one of the directions on the real Forth bridge goes to an area that used to
be a real kingdom, the other goes to the city of Edinburgh.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

 >> Stay informed about: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge 
Back to top
Login to vote
user401

External


Since: Aug 12, 2003
Posts: 2



(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 7:56 am
Post subject: Re: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Richard Puchalsky" <rpuchalsky.RemoveThis@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message news:<n6t_a.99293$0v4.6839678@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>...

  > > This reminds me another thing - is it ever
  > > said (or implied) unequivocally in what relation the directions
  > > Up/Down-river and City/Kingdom are? I. e. on the real Forth Bridge,
  > > when looking downstream the city is on the right side, but I haven't
  > > noticed if this, or the opposite, is said about the Bridge as well.
 >
 > Yes. Some of the posts in response to my earlier series pointed out that
 > one of the directions on the real Forth bridge goes to an area that used to
 > be a real kingdom, the other goes to the city of Edinburgh.

Yes, I knew this from the beginning, but I meant something else - you
can combine two perpendicular directions in two ways (there must be
some mathematical term for this which I don't know, like with the
mirror forms of amino acids): if you stand with your back Upriver and
looking Downriver, the City can be on your right side and the Kingdom
on the left, or just as well vice versa. I'm not sure whether it is
ever said in the Bridge chapters which alternative applies, or if we
can only deduce from our extraneous knowledge of Scottish geography:
compare that it is said a couple times that the road bridge is
upstream of the railway one, and when the narrator seems to see a
ghost bridge during his train journey, it is in the appropriate
direction.

I was asking just from idle curiosity whether I missed a detail, you
see, not that I expect this to have a special significance. (Hm, in
what direction does he see his double on the circular bridge? Though I
doubt even more one can find hidden meaning in that; but _why_ were
there barrage balloons only on one side of the Bridge? Sorry if you
suggested an interpretation in your posts, I _wasn't_ able to read all
of them at one sitting Smile

--
Jan Vanek jr.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge 
Back to top
Login to vote
rpuchalsky

External


Since: Jun 30, 2003
Posts: 37



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2003 9:51 pm
Post subject: Re: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Jan Vanek jr." <jan.vanek.jr.DeleteThis@seznam.cz> wrote in message
news:e1e16f37.0308140356.179e237b@posting.google.com...
[...]
 > what direction does he see his double on the circular bridge? Though I
 > doubt even more one can find hidden meaning in that; but _why_ were
 > there barrage balloons only on one side of the Bridge? Sorry if you
 > suggested an interpretation in your posts, I _wasn't_ able to read all
 > of them at one sitting Smile

My guess as to why the barrage balloons appear only on one side is that:

a) The barrage balloons represent the protagonist's own attempt to avoid
remembering the painful facts that drove him to hide out in his own body in
the first place, since the airplanes represent knowledge of his situation,
and the barrage balloons are trying to stop them. I can go into more detail
about why the airplanes represent knowledge if desired.

b) If they appear only on one side of the Bridge, then there must be an
association in the protagonist's mind between the direction of the river and
the direction of time. In other words, the river flows from the future and
flows to the past. The barrage balloons need to block things coming from
the "future" direction in order to keep the protagonist in his current
stasis and effectively stop change.

c) Thus the direction of the river has a symbolic meaning, over and above
the simple fact of Scottish geography. But this interpretation still leaves
me wholly uninterested in which direction the river actually flows in. The
psychological map is more interesting than the physical map (although I can
understand how some people would find it otherwise). However, this
interpretation could actually be contraindicated if the barrage balloons are
found to be on the wrong side, physically -- though in that case I could
make a case for it being the memory of the past that the protagonist wants
to block out, not the future.

Frankly, I was almost disappointed to find that the City and Kingdom
referred to actual Scottish localities. They are such wonderfully evocative
names for someone trapped -- in part by choice -- in a world of their own,
halfway between life and death. But one can always prefer a double or
multiple meaning.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge 
Back to top
Login to vote
user400

External


Since: Jul 25, 2003
Posts: 55



(Msg. 5) Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:09 am
Post subject: Re: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

"Richard Puchalsky" <rpuchalsky RemoveThis @worldnet.att.net> wrote in
news:oSQ_a.98930$3o3.6873795@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net:


 >
 > Frankly, I was almost disappointed to find that the City and Kingdom
 > referred to actual Scottish localities. They are such wonderfully
 > evocative names for someone trapped -- in part by choice -- in a world
 > of their own, halfway between life and death. But one can always
 > prefer a double or multiple meaning.

The City of Edinburgh and the Kingdom of Fife. In fact The Bridge is
riddled with local refernces and names associated with the construction
of the bridge. I took this to mean that the protagonist was confusing
(or combining?) known facts with the ideas conjoured up in the
dreamworld of the coma.

--
Adrian<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
 >> Stay informed about: Help decipher some phrasing in The Bridge 
Back to top
Login to vote
Display posts from previous:   
   Book Forums (Home) -> Iain Banks All times are: Pacific Time (US & Canada) (change)
Page 1 of 1

 
You can post new topics in this forum
You can reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



[ Contact us | Terms of Service/Privacy Policy ]