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dale

External


Since: Aug 15, 2003
Posts: 18



(Msg. 31) Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Next Honor Harrington? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)

Michelle Steiner wrote:

> In article <grb440tjlv0i6hqjuqsbbkredaru10r1pi DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
> Frank Ney <n4zhg DeleteThis @icqmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >I'm not advocating abortion as a means of birth control, but as a last
> > >resort if all other measures failed. And with the impending advent of
> > >the morning-after pill as an over-the-counter item, the number of
> > >abortions per insemination should go down noticably.
> >
> > No impending about it -- it's out. We just had a bunch of
> > pharmacists fired for refusing to dispense it here in the USA.
>
> Right now, it requires a prescription; that's how those pharmacists were
> able to refuse to dispense it--the women had to give them the
> prescription. What is impending is making it over the counter, where a
> woman can pick it off the shelf and take it to the checkout register,
> without any prescription; just as with aspirin or chewing gum.
>
> > It's turning into a rather nasty 1st Amendment wrongful termination
> > lawsuit.
>
> And they'll lose the suit because this has nothing to do with the first
> amendment.
>
> --
> Never play strip tarot.

Except this is a medical care issue. The pharmacist has been given
a valid prescription written by competent medical authority to fill. The
pharmacist has a duty to fill that prescription in a speedy fashion, only
questioning the prescription if there is some medical condition that
the pharmacist is aware of and the prescribing authority may not be.
This is typically that the patient is already taking other medication
that will interact to produce some adverse reaction. For instance,
prescribing a med that raises blood pressure when the patient is
already being treated by another doctor for high blood pressure.
It is only under that circumstance may the pharmacist question the
suitability of a valid prescription. They may question the validity of a
prescription if the signature is missing, the quantities are excessive,
or in the case of schedule III drugs, are required to confirm them
with the doctor prior to filling them.
A pharmacist who refuses to fill a valid prescription because of
the pharmacist's religious belief is clearly guilty of malpractice. The
patient who suffers any adverse effect from the delay or
non-fufillment of that prescription has a easy to win case against
the pharmacist. In these particular cases, how about all the money
needed to raise a child to maturity as actual damages. How much
pain and suffering damages, and punitive damages may also be
awarded?

--Dale

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phillies

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Since: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 74



(Msg. 32) Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Next Honor Harrington? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Mon, 1 Mar 2004, Michelle Steiner wrote:

 > In article <Pine.LNX.4.58.0403011250400.13855 DeleteThis @ccc4.WPI.EDU>,
 > "George D. Phillies" <phillies DeleteThis @WPI.EDU> wrote:
 >
   > > > > It's turning into a rather nasty 1st Amendment wrongful
   > > > > termination lawsuit.
   > > >
   > > > And they'll lose the suit because this has nothing to do with the
   > > > first amendment.
  > >
  > > The government directing people to violate their deeply held
  > > religious beliefs is a first amendment issue, though not related
  > > necessarily to free speech.
 >
 > The government did not direct anyone to do anything. The pharmacist's
 > employer directed the pharmacist to do the job he was paid to do: fill
 > legitimate prescriptions where there are no medical contraindications.
 > Therefore, it's not a first amendment issue, because the government is
 > not involved.

I think we must be referring to different events. If it was a private
employer, I would agree with you, except that we do in many places have
antidiscrimination statutes--not well described as First Amendment
lawsuits--and an employer who, for example, sends the employees toa
remote place on, for example, a pork based diet may have technical issues.
But that would not be a first amendment lawsuit.

George<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->

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all_games1

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Since: Jan 06, 2004
Posts: 87



(Msg. 33) Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:46 pm
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"George D. Phillies" <phillies RemoveThis @WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.58.0403011840060.25039@ccc7.WPI.EDU...
> I think we must be referring to different events. If it was a private
> employer, I would agree with you, except that we do in many places have
> antidiscrimination statutes--not well described as First Amendment
> lawsuits--and an employer who, for example, sends the employees toa
> remote place on, for example, a pork based diet may have technical issues.
> But that would not be a first amendment lawsuit.

I'm not sure how antidiscrimination statutes would effect the situation: the
pharmacists were employed for a reason, to sell pharmaceuticals to people
who bring in the correct paperwork; if they unilaterally choose not to do
what they're being paid to do, they get fired.

Unless you're saying the antidiscrimination was being applied to the buyers?
(IE, the buyers were being discriminated against based on the pharmacists'
religions.)

(Note: I'm trying to keep personal opinions out of it; I'm just confused how
the antidiscrimination would factor in favor of the pharmacists.)

Andrew Lannon
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michelle

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 134



(Msg. 34) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:39 am
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phillies

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Since: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 74



(Msg. 35) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 4:13 pm
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On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, John C. Watson wrote:

 > <http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/metropolitan/2424178>

Note from this story that Texas has a law:

Under Texas law, no doctor, nurse, staff member or employee of a hospital
or health care center may be forced to participate in an abortion. It is
unclear, however, whether that protection extends to Texas pharmacists and
whether the morning-after pill falls under the definition of an abortion
procedure.

But this is rather different form the first amendment issue. On the
bright side, this may alleviate unemployment among members of the Bar.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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michelle

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 134



(Msg. 36) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 4:13 pm
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phillies

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Since: Jul 15, 2003
Posts: 74



(Msg. 37) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:20 pm
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This depends on how the Texans defined their term of art.
Poorly, I expect.

On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Michelle Steiner wrote:

 > In article <Pine.LNX.4.58.0403021311180.18402.DeleteThis@ccc6.WPI.EDU>,
 > "George D. Phillies" <phillies.DeleteThis@WPI.EDU> wrote:
 >
  > > Under Texas law, no doctor, nurse, staff member or employee of a
  > > hospital or health care center may be forced to participate in an
  > > abortion. It is unclear, however, whether that protection extends to
  > > Texas pharmacists and whether the morning-after pill falls under the
  > > definition of an abortion procedure.
 >
 > Pregancy begins upon implantation of a fertilized egg in the womb. The
 > morning-after pill prevents implantation (it also prevents fertilization
 > if that has not happened yet), which means that there is no pregnancy,
 > and therefore, no abortion.
 >
 > --
 > Never play strip tarot.
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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all_games1

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Since: Jan 06, 2004
Posts: 87



(Msg. 38) Posted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Next Honor Harrington? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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"George D. Phillies" <phillies DeleteThis @WPI.EDU> wrote in message
news:Pine.LNX.4.58.0403021820230.5327@ccc2.WPI.EDU...
> On Tue, 2 Mar 2004, Michelle Steiner wrote:
>
> > In article <Pine.LNX.4.58.0403021311180.18402 DeleteThis @ccc6.WPI.EDU>,
> > "George D. Phillies" <phillies DeleteThis @WPI.EDU> wrote:
> >
> > > Under Texas law, no doctor, nurse, staff member or employee of a
> > > hospital or health care center may be forced to participate in an
> > > abortion. It is unclear, however, whether that protection extends to
> > > Texas pharmacists and whether the morning-after pill falls under the
> > > definition of an abortion procedure.
> >
> > Pregancy begins upon implantation of a fertilized egg in the womb. The
> > morning-after pill prevents implantation (it also prevents fertilization
> > if that has not happened yet), which means that there is no pregnancy,
> > and therefore, no abortion.
>
> This depends on how the Texans defined their term of art.
> Poorly, I expect.

Actually, the normal complaint isn't so much the abortion itself, as the
prevention of pregnancy. I don't really understand it, myself, but that
seems to be the view.

Whether it's by the offices of a pill, injection, doctor, or coat-hanger,
they all seem to be found equally objectionable.

(Speaking as someone from a conservative Texas town.)

Andrew L.
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delf20k

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Since: Dec 01, 2003
Posts: 2



(Msg. 39) Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:49 am
Post subject: Re: Next Honor Harrington? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Do all stores that sell drugs in the us have to keep all the drugs there
are?

Over here most stores that sell drugs are owned buy the pharmacist and if
they object to a drug they don't stock it.

There has been a case over here were the baby survived an abortion attempt
but was badly affected and on becoming an adult sued the doctor ,if the same
thing happened with a pill could the pharmacist or doctor be at risk in the
US?

"Dale Farmer" <Dale.TakeThisOut@cybercom.net> wrote in message
news:40439D3B.8092968@cybercom.net...
>
>
> Michelle Steiner wrote:
>
> > In article <grb440tjlv0i6hqjuqsbbkredaru10r1pi.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
> > Frank Ney <n4zhg.TakeThisOut@icqmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > >I'm not advocating abortion as a means of birth control, but as a
last
> > > >resort if all other measures failed. And with the impending advent
of
> > > >the morning-after pill as an over-the-counter item, the number of
> > > >abortions per insemination should go down noticably.
> > >
> > > No impending about it -- it's out. We just had a bunch of
> > > pharmacists fired for refusing to dispense it here in the USA.
> >
> > Right now, it requires a prescription; that's how those pharmacists were
> > able to refuse to dispense it--the women had to give them the
> > prescription. What is impending is making it over the counter, where a
> > woman can pick it off the shelf and take it to the checkout register,
> > without any prescription; just as with aspirin or chewing gum.
> >
> > > It's turning into a rather nasty 1st Amendment wrongful termination
> > > lawsuit.
> >
> > And they'll lose the suit because this has nothing to do with the first
> > amendment.
> >
> > --
> > Never play strip tarot.
>
> Except this is a medical care issue. The pharmacist has been given
> a valid prescription written by competent medical authority to fill. The
> pharmacist has a duty to fill that prescription in a speedy fashion, only
> questioning the prescription if there is some medical condition that
> the pharmacist is aware of and the prescribing authority may not be.
> This is typically that the patient is already taking other medication
> that will interact to produce some adverse reaction. For instance,
> prescribing a med that raises blood pressure when the patient is
> already being treated by another doctor for high blood pressure.
> It is only under that circumstance may the pharmacist question the
> suitability of a valid prescription. They may question the validity of a
> prescription if the signature is missing, the quantities are excessive,
> or in the case of schedule III drugs, are required to confirm them
> with the doctor prior to filling them.
> A pharmacist who refuses to fill a valid prescription because of
> the pharmacist's religious belief is clearly guilty of malpractice. The
> patient who suffers any adverse effect from the delay or
> non-fufillment of that prescription has a easy to win case against
> the pharmacist. In these particular cases, how about all the money
> needed to raise a child to maturity as actual damages. How much
> pain and suffering damages, and punitive damages may also be
> awarded?
>
> --Dale
>
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michelle

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 134



(Msg. 40) Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:49 am
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gillian_white1

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Since: Jan 27, 2004
Posts: 46



(Msg. 41) Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:49 am
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"Michelle Steiner" <michelle RemoveThis @michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-731225.16590211032004@news.west.cox.net...

> The "morning after" emergency-contracpetion pill prevents pregnancy; it
> does not cause abortion.

I thought the MAP prevented implantation of a fertilized egg, not the
fertilization itself.

If this is correct, then you could argue that it does indeed cause an
abortion, because it effectively terminates a pregnancy that has already
begun.

Gillian
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michelle

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 134



(Msg. 42) Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:49 am
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gillian_white1

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Since: Jan 27, 2004
Posts: 46



(Msg. 43) Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:56 pm
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"Michelle Steiner" <michelle.TakeThisOut@michelle.org> wrote in message
news:michelle-739BCF.23444611032004@news.west.cox.net...

> The medical definition of pregnancy says that pregnancy starts at
> implantation, not at fertilization. That's why an IUD is not considered
> an abortion device; it prevents implantation.

Ah, that explains it. Thank you.

I guess the real problems start when you have someone who, for one reason or
another, chooses to believe that pregnancy begins with fertilization itself.

Gillian
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michelle

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Since: Jul 13, 2003
Posts: 134



(Msg. 44) Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 3:56 pm
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nupreacher1

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Since: Jan 07, 2004
Posts: 13



(Msg. 45) Posted: Fri Mar 12, 2004 9:37 pm
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Michelle Steiner wrote:
> In article <W4l4c.36231$Up2.34053@pd7tw1no>,
> "Gillian White" <Gillian_White.DeleteThis@nospampleasethanksmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>The medical definition of pregnancy says that pregnancy starts at
>>>implantation, not at fertilization. That's why an IUD is not
>>>considered an abortion device; it prevents implantation.
>>
>>Ah, that explains it. Thank you.
>>
>>I guess the real problems start when you have someone who, for one
>>reason or another, chooses to believe that pregnancy begins with
>>fertilization itself.
>
>
> Exactly, and many anti-choice advocates profess to believe exactly that.
>
I do, because life begins at conception.
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