Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements?

In article <tibln3h567psbsobj3ekldjrj7if44vt6s DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
Dahak <Dahak_II DeleteThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:39:01 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> made Don Sample <dsample DeleteThis @synapse.net> write:
>
> >> Recall that the /Harvest Joy/, a ship expressly designed to
> >> explore potentially random spots took a vague, but significant,
> >> non-trivial amount of time to determine her position upon her arrival
> >> at Lynx.
> >
> >Which was something that was patently silly.
>
> So... you'll ignore it.
>
> OK, how long do you expect it should take to do an all-sky survey,
> filter out the hundred brightest stars, then develop detailed enough
> spectrograms on each one to run against your database?

It took you longer to ask that question than the actual operation should
take.

The most time consuming part of it would be reading the position your
computer gives you off its display.

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On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:12:44 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
made Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> write:

>It took you longer to ask that question than the actual operation should
>take.
>
>The most time consuming part of it would be reading the position your
>computer gives you off its display.

Ooo... good, detailed answer.

Thank you, ever so much.


-JPB
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

In article
<45201047-963b-4bbe-b3ec-e8cace33002f DeleteThis @d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
Ben H <cataphractlance DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 1, 4:21 pm, Dahak <Dahak... DeleteThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid>
> wrote:
> > On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:39:01 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> > made Don Sample <dsam... DeleteThis @synapse.net> write:
> >
> > >> Recall that the /Harvest Joy/, a ship expressly designed to
> > >> explore potentially random spots took a vague, but significant,
> > >> non-trivial amount of time to determine her position upon her arrival
> > >> at Lynx.
> >
> > >Which was something that was patently silly.
> >
> > So... you'll ignore it.
> >
> > OK, how long do you expect it should take to do an all-sky survey,
> > filter out the hundred brightest stars, then develop detailed enough
> > spectrograms on each one to run against your database?
> >
> > -JPB
>
>
> *shrug*
> I'm just an amateur astronomer, so there might be better informed
> heads in these lofty circles, but analyzing just the brightest
> _hundred_ stars shouldn't be difficult, or time consuming at all. The
> warships after all carry optics capable of picking up a mere spaceship
> at considerable ranges, running a spectrogram on a particularly bright
> star should be easy.
>
> The problem comes with figuring out just what the hell that means.
> Sure I can say "Betelgeuse is over there, and thirty degrees east of
> it there's Arcturus" but thats not significantly useful, without
> already having a strong indication of where you're at.
> You need to have a good idea of how far you are from these stars
> before their positions in the "sky" are of great use.


Two stars will put you somewhere on the surface of a shell. Add a third,
and you've got yourself a point.

--
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Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

In article <dsample-2F8AF4.19520401012008 DeleteThis @news.giganews.com>,
Don Sample <dsample DeleteThis @synapse.net> wrote:

> In article
> <45201047-963b-4bbe-b3ec-e8cace33002f DeleteThis @d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> Ben H <cataphractlance DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 1, 4:21 pm, Dahak <Dahak... DeleteThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid>
> > wrote:
> > > On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:39:01 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> > > made Don Sample <dsam... DeleteThis @synapse.net> write:
> > >
> > > >> Recall that the /Harvest Joy/, a ship expressly designed to
> > > >> explore potentially random spots took a vague, but significant,
> > > >> non-trivial amount of time to determine her position upon her arrival
> > > >> at Lynx.
> > >
> > > >Which was something that was patently silly.
> > >
> > > So... you'll ignore it.
> > >
> > > OK, how long do you expect it should take to do an all-sky survey,
> > > filter out the hundred brightest stars, then develop detailed enough
> > > spectrograms on each one to run against your database?
> > >
> > > -JPB
> >
> >
> > *shrug*
> > I'm just an amateur astronomer, so there might be better informed
> > heads in these lofty circles, but analyzing just the brightest
> > _hundred_ stars shouldn't be difficult, or time consuming at all. The
> > warships after all carry optics capable of picking up a mere spaceship
> > at considerable ranges, running a spectrogram on a particularly bright
> > star should be easy.
> >
> > The problem comes with figuring out just what the hell that means.
> > Sure I can say "Betelgeuse is over there, and thirty degrees east of
> > it there's Arcturus" but thats not significantly useful, without
> > already having a strong indication of where you're at.
> > You need to have a good idea of how far you are from these stars
> > before their positions in the "sky" are of great use.
>
>
> Two stars will put you somewhere on the surface of a shell. Add a third,
> and you've got yourself a point.

You need FOUR stars. 2 stars and you define a plane. A third star,
you, and the first star define another plane, which intersects the
first plane to form a line. A fourth star, you, and one of the 1st
3 stars defines another plane, which intersects the line at a
point. That's where you are.

--
Robert Woodward <robertaw DeleteThis @drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

On Jan 1, 10:54 pm, Don Sample <dsam... RemoveThis @synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <lv0mn390co0an7hjslk5bj8fd8vm1sl... RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
>
>  Dahak <Dahak... RemoveThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:
> > On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 22:10:05 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> > made Don Sample <dsam... RemoveThis @synapse.net> write:
>
> > >You just need to put a diffraction grating into the optical path to
> > >smear the light from the stars out into their spectra.  For an example
> > >of how it would work, you just have to take a look at the reflection of
> > >a light in the non-label side of a CD or DVD.
>
> >    Would that not give you an aggregate spectrum for the entire field
> > of view?
>
> > -JPB
>
> Each star will make its own individual streak of colour.
>
> --
> Quando omni flunkus moritati
> Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

Out of curiosity, how do you intend to keep the various individual
bars seperate? I suppose you could just concentrate on the bright
stars, and take a very, very short exposure photograph, so that you
don't expose the dimmer stars, but I'd still be concerned with the
various spectra bleeding into each other.
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

In article <Xns9A19647E0C742spampaulonultimainfo.RemoveThis@127.0.0.1>,
Paulon <-@-.-> wrote:

> With a deafening roar and a whoosh of spray, Don Sample swings about and
> addresses the awaiting newsgroup...
>
> > In article <omrkn3t2rj6nd97tibk62uoeceqcrcddgn.RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
> > Dahak <Dahak_II.RemoveThis@theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:
> >
> >> Traditional navigation rules reassert themselves upon emergence
> >> into realspace with a difficulty level dependent on the location at
> >> emergence. (Are you in interstellar space? Locating navigation
> >> 'landmarks' becomes time consuming.
> >
> > They're called "stars", and you can see them from really far away.
> > Some of the brightest stars in Earth's sky will be visible throughout
> > the explored volume of space in the Honorverse. Betelgeuse is over
> > 400 light years away, and Rigel is 700. They will be among the
> > brightest objects in the sky for *any* of the settled worlds in
> > Weber's universe. Getting a navigational fix is something that should
> > take only seconds after emerging from hyperspace.
>
> But which star is Betelgeuse, and which is Rigel?

The red one is Betelgueuse, the blue one is Rigel.

> Is that really bright
> one to starboard a really massive bright star a very long way away or a
> dimmer one up close? If you know where you're supposed to be it'd be a
> lot easier to tell which stars to look at first to figure out where you
> are, but if you don't, you've got to pick a star to start with and start
> analysing the spectra to make identifications. That won't be fast.

You could make a widget now that could do the job in seconds. You don't
have to look at individual stars, one by one. One digital photograph of
the whole sky to locate and take the spectra of every star, and then a
little data crunching by a computer to compare them against a database
of stellar spectra.


>
> And if you're relying just on the distances from known stars to
> determine your location, how accurately can you analyze the distances
> measured in lightyears? There's certain to be a fair margin of error
> there.

You triangulate based on the angles between the stars, not how far away
you think they are.

--
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Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

In article <famln3588urncs7avapbf0nl8bo2qa1e90 DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
Dahak <Dahak_II DeleteThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 19:12:44 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> made Don Sample <dsample DeleteThis @synapse.net> write:
>
> >It took you longer to ask that question than the actual operation should
> >take.
> >
> >The most time consuming part of it would be reading the position your
> >computer gives you off its display.
>
> Ooo... good, detailed answer.
>
> Thank you, ever so much.
>
>
> -JPB

Using existing real world technology you could build a digital camera
that would take the spectra of every star in the sky in under a second.
A couple of seconds of processing would extract the spectral finger
prints of all those stars from the photograph. A database lookup to
compare those spectra against the spectra of every known star would take
milliseconds. The calculation to determine your position would take
microseconds.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

In article
<05593554-c4c4-4a04-bfbf-051b8acee178 DeleteThis @r60g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
Ben H <cataphractlance DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:

> On Jan 1, 7:52 pm, Don Sample <dsam... DeleteThis @synapse.net> wrote:
> > In article
> > <45201047-963b-4bbe-b3ec-e8cace330... DeleteThis @d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> >  Ben H <cataphractla... DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > On Jan 1, 4:21 pm, Dahak <Dahak... DeleteThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:39:01 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> > > > made Don Sample <dsam... DeleteThis @synapse.net> write:
> >
> > > > >>        Recall that the /Harvest Joy/, a ship expressly designed to
> > > > >> explore potentially random spots took a vague, but significant,
> > > > >> non-trivial amount of time to determine her position upon her
> > > > >> arrival
> > > > >> at Lynx.
> >
> > > > >Which was something that was patently silly.
> >
> > > >         So... you'll ignore it.
> >
> > > >         OK, how long do you expect it should take to do an all-sky
> > > > survey,
> > > > filter out the hundred brightest stars, then develop detailed enough
> > > > spectrograms on each one to run against your database?
> >
> > > > -JPB
> >
> > > *shrug*
> > > I'm just an amateur astronomer, so there might be better informed
> > > heads in these lofty circles, but analyzing just the brightest
> > > _hundred_ stars shouldn't be difficult, or time consuming at all. The
> > > warships after all carry optics capable of picking up a mere spaceship
> > > at considerable ranges, running a spectrogram on a particularly bright
> > > star should be easy.
> >
> > > The problem comes with figuring out just what the hell that means.
> > > Sure I can say "Betelgeuse is over there, and thirty degrees east of
> > > it there's Arcturus" but thats not significantly useful, without
> > > already having a strong indication of where you're at.
> > > You need to have a good idea of how far you are from these stars
> > > before their positions in the "sky" are of great use.
> >
> > Two stars will put you somewhere on the surface of a shell. Add a third,
> > and you've got yourself a point.
> >
> > --
> > Quando omni flunkus moritati
> > Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>- Hide
> > quoted text -
> >
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> I don't rightly understand what you're getting at.
> If I found myself in a foreign star system, and was able to correctly
> identify the stars Betelgeuse, Rigel and Aldebaaran, what good does
> that do me?

Measuring the angles between those three stars will give you your exact
position in space. There is only be one point in the universe where
those three stars will appear in that configuration.




> I can't triangulate my position until I know where I am in relation to
> the stars, which requires knowing the distances. Measuring the
> distance to a star like Rigel would require the use of parallax, which
> takes longer then scanning the stars, saying Ope! There's Rigel!

You don't need to measure the distance to anything. You just need the
angles. High school trigonometry will let you calculate how far away
they are.

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 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:49:49 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
made Don Sample <dsample.RemoveThis@synapse.net> write:

>Using existing real world technology you could build a digital camera
>that would take the spectra of every star in the sky in under a second.

I would find that difficult to believe for a random starfield.

-JPB
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

In article <actln3t7g5n7tkp1qdmkcp5sl4s7r5l28c.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
Dahak <Dahak_II.DeleteThis@theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:

> On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:49:49 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> made Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net> write:
>
> >Using existing real world technology you could build a digital camera
> >that would take the spectra of every star in the sky in under a second.
>
> I would find that difficult to believe for a random starfield.
>
> -JPB

It doesn't matter how random the star field. One photograph gives you
the position and spectrum of every star in it.

--
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Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

In article <robertaw-D94A5E.18244001012008 RemoveThis @news.individual.net>,
"Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw RemoveThis @drizzle.com> wrote:

> In article <dsample-2F8AF4.19520401012008 RemoveThis @news.giganews.com>,
> Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> wrote:
>
> > In article
> > <45201047-963b-4bbe-b3ec-e8cace33002f RemoveThis @d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> > Ben H <cataphractlance RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Jan 1, 4:21 pm, Dahak <Dahak... RemoveThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid>
> > > wrote:
> > > > On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:39:01 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> > > > made Don Sample <dsam... RemoveThis @synapse.net> write:
> > > >
> > > > >> Recall that the /Harvest Joy/, a ship expressly designed to
> > > > >> explore potentially random spots took a vague, but significant,
> > > > >> non-trivial amount of time to determine her position upon her
> > > > >> arrival
> > > > >> at Lynx.
> > > >
> > > > >Which was something that was patently silly.
> > > >
> > > > So... you'll ignore it.
> > > >
> > > > OK, how long do you expect it should take to do an all-sky
> > > > survey,
> > > > filter out the hundred brightest stars, then develop detailed enough
> > > > spectrograms on each one to run against your database?
> > > >
> > > > -JPB
> > >
> > >
> > > *shrug*
> > > I'm just an amateur astronomer, so there might be better informed
> > > heads in these lofty circles, but analyzing just the brightest
> > > _hundred_ stars shouldn't be difficult, or time consuming at all. The
> > > warships after all carry optics capable of picking up a mere spaceship
> > > at considerable ranges, running a spectrogram on a particularly bright
> > > star should be easy.
> > >
> > > The problem comes with figuring out just what the hell that means.
> > > Sure I can say "Betelgeuse is over there, and thirty degrees east of
> > > it there's Arcturus" but thats not significantly useful, without
> > > already having a strong indication of where you're at.
> > > You need to have a good idea of how far you are from these stars
> > > before their positions in the "sky" are of great use.
> >
> >
> > Two stars will put you somewhere on the surface of a shell. Add a third,
> > and you've got yourself a point.
>
> You need FOUR stars. 2 stars and you define a plane. A third star,
> you, and the first star define another plane, which intersects the
> first plane to form a line. A fourth star, you, and one of the 1st
> 3 stars defines another plane, which intersects the line at a
> point. That's where you are.

The angle between stars A and B gives you one plane
The angle between stars B and C gives you a second plane.
The angle between stars A and C gives you a third plane.

--
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 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

In article <dsample-2D3C7D.21345801012008 RemoveThis @news.giganews.com>,
Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> wrote:

> In article <robertaw-D94A5E.18244001012008 RemoveThis @news.individual.net>,
> "Robert A. Woodward" <robertaw RemoveThis @drizzle.com> wrote:
>
> > In article <dsample-2F8AF4.19520401012008 RemoveThis @news.giganews.com>,
> > Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> wrote:
> >
> > > In article
> > > <45201047-963b-4bbe-b3ec-e8cace33002f RemoveThis @d4g2000prg.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Ben H <cataphractlance RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > On Jan 1, 4:21 pm, Dahak <Dahak... RemoveThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 15:39:01 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
> > > > > made Don Sample <dsam... RemoveThis @synapse.net> write:
> > > > >
> > > > > >> Recall that the /Harvest Joy/, a ship expressly designed to
> > > > > >> explore potentially random spots took a vague, but significant,
> > > > > >> non-trivial amount of time to determine her position upon her
> > > > > >> arrival
> > > > > >> at Lynx.
> > > > >
> > > > > >Which was something that was patently silly.
> > > > >
> > > > > So... you'll ignore it.
> > > > >
> > > > > OK, how long do you expect it should take to do an all-sky
> > > > > survey,
> > > > > filter out the hundred brightest stars, then develop detailed enough
> > > > > spectrograms on each one to run against your database?
> > > > >
> > > > > -JPB
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > *shrug*
> > > > I'm just an amateur astronomer, so there might be better informed
> > > > heads in these lofty circles, but analyzing just the brightest
> > > > _hundred_ stars shouldn't be difficult, or time consuming at all. The
> > > > warships after all carry optics capable of picking up a mere spaceship
> > > > at considerable ranges, running a spectrogram on a particularly bright
> > > > star should be easy.
> > > >
> > > > The problem comes with figuring out just what the hell that means.
> > > > Sure I can say "Betelgeuse is over there, and thirty degrees east of
> > > > it there's Arcturus" but thats not significantly useful, without
> > > > already having a strong indication of where you're at.
> > > > You need to have a good idea of how far you are from these stars
> > > > before their positions in the "sky" are of great use.
> > >
> > >
> > > Two stars will put you somewhere on the surface of a shell. Add a third,
> > > and you've got yourself a point.
> >
> > You need FOUR stars. 2 stars and you define a plane. A third star,
> > you, and the first star define another plane, which intersects the
> > first plane to form a line. A fourth star, you, and one of the 1st
> > 3 stars defines another plane, which intersects the line at a
> > point. That's where you are.
>
> The angle between stars A and B gives you one plane
> The angle between stars B and C gives you a second plane.
> The angle between stars A and C gives you a third plane.

Stars A, B, and C form a plane. There are two points that give you
those angles; one "above" the plane and one "below".

--
Robert Woodward <robertaw RemoveThis @drizzle.com>
<http://www.drizzle.com/~robertaw>
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements? 

On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 21:31:34 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
made Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> write:

>In article <actln3t7g5n7tkp1qdmkcp5sl4s7r5l28c RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
> Dahak <Dahak_II RemoveThis @theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 01 Jan 2008 20:49:49 -0500, an orbiting mind-control laser
>> made Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> write:
>>
>> >Using existing real world technology you could build a digital camera
>> >that would take the spectra of every star in the sky in under a second.
>>
>> I would find that difficult to believe for a random starfield.
>>
>> -JPB
>
>It doesn't matter how random the star field. One photograph gives you
>the position and spectrum of every star in it.

Perhaps you could provide some links to explain how this would be
done.

Not being a field I know, I could believe an aggregate spectra for
the entire field of view... I could believe the azimuth and elevation
for every star in the FOV... but not both from a single exposure.


-JPB
 >> Stay informed about: Ideas for honorverse space navy improvements?