Idle Speculation

John Palmer wrote:

> in? And what makes Verdant Vista so dangerous anyway? Is it something that would
> not be such a threat to treecats, or even that treecats could mitigate for
> humans in exchange for a part of the pharmaceutical profits?


Think of a whole planet like SE Asia. 'Cats can shed enough fur to live
there, so that's not likely to be a problem. Being someplace likely to
be invaded by genetic slavers who have wanted to get their hands on some
treecats to experiment with, does not seem a good idea.
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On Thu, 02 Nov 2006 20:43:40 BrianBridgePro <BrianBridgePro.TakeThisOut@cwgo.com> wrote:

snip
>How will it all turn out?
>Will Victor and Anton return with all the answers?
Anton might fall soon, but Victor is too central to the very nature of the CoS
offshoot for anything to be allowed to kill him off yet. Yet.
I suspect that he might well be around for the finish of the CoS branch at least
>Will Queen Elizabeth have to be removed from office.
It has been pretty well snerked that it is Honor that begs Her Majesty to allow
peace, possibly from her deathbed or as a "in case of death" message.
>How will Grayson react to the marriage of Hamish,Emily, and Honor?
?? Happy, joyous, ready for major outreach programs to convert each of them to
Father Church. Why the question?
>Where DOES the Torch wormhole take us? Will Dr. Kare and company be
>loaned to Queen Berry to work on this?
1) don't know, and 2) probably, although they will likely go through with a SD
given who had the system previously. Hah.
I wonder if a dispatch ship could get through the Pod doors of a SD(P)
Dispatch ship with constantly updated nav computers and warm nodes ready to run
back to Torch as soon as they figure out where the "hole" leads. Maybe even use
the pod launch rails to get it out faster.
>Whither Wanderman,Scotty,Harkness,Abigail and the rest of our boys and
>girls in uniform?
Wanderman is with Lewis in Talbot. IIRC, he led a part of the boarding party
that went on one of the ships caught pirating.
>Will the next SI have Abigail as a cruiser XO with Helen Zilwicki as
>asst Tac and OCTO for a snotty row that includes Rachel Mayhew?
1) too convenient. 2) Abigail is at least 3 grades from XO, remember she was
"frocked" to handle the snotty training. ATO on a larger ship is more likely for
her. Helen similarly isn't at the point where she would be ready for your
position. Sorry.
>Where will the next treecat colony be located?
No idea. It really depends on how they see their own needs, desires, and ability
to adapt. More interworking with humans or less? Maybe even stage colonists who
are going to be working with humans through Gryphon or Grayson while going
somewhere else. Is there an underdeveloped world that they would feel at home
in? And what makes Verdant Vista so dangerous anyway? Is it something that would
not be such a threat to treecats, or even that treecats could mitigate for
humans in exchange for a part of the pharmaceutical profits?
>Will the last sentence in the last book be " ..and she was crowned as
>Honor the 1st, Empress of the known Galaxy"
No
>Who knows? All I know is that I'll be going along for the ride as
>long as HIMSELF lets me.
Sounds good to me, as long as he doesn't stretch it out so far that he doesn't
finish the story arc.
>
>Thanks Dave.
-
John Palmer
jhn1.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com (swap one for 1)
"That was the best pep talk ever", Sergeant Schlock
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20030608.html
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John Palmer wrote:
> Sounds good to me, as long as he doesn't stretch it out so far that he doesn't
> finish the story arc.

Hehe, I just thought of the part of Monty Python and the Quest for the
Holy Grail where King Arthur and his knights are saved from the monster
because the animator had a fatal heart attack.

--
--Jeffrey MacHott

"Sola bona lingua est mortua lingua"
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On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:07:07 -0800, Offbreed <offbreed_106.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>John Palmer wrote:
>> in? And what makes Verdant Vista so dangerous anyway? Is it something that would
>> not be such a threat to treecats, or even that treecats could mitigate for
>> humans in exchange for a part of the pharmaceutical profits?
>
>Think of a whole planet like SE Asia. 'Cats can shed enough fur to live
>there, so that's not likely to be a problem. Being someplace likely to
>be invaded by genetic slavers who have wanted to get their hands on some
>treecats to experiment with, does not seem a good idea.

Two responses, first is given how undeveloped most of the planet is, and how
dangerous the planet's surface is reputed to be, couldn't the treecats disappear
into the "brush"?
and second, I was asking about specifics. What was on the planetary surface that
was so inimical to humanity (or atleast human slave harvesters which is not the
same thing at all).
-
John Palmer
jhn1.RemoveThis@hotmail.com (swap one for 1)
"That was the best pep talk ever", Sergeant Schlock
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20030608.html
 >> Stay informed about: Idle Speculation 

Fred Burton wrote:
> wendal wrote in message
> <1162778266.536691.104280.DeleteThis@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
> >
> >Fred Burton wrote:
> >> Offbreed wrote in message ...
> >> >Fred Burton wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I think that some sort of fragmentation of the League is coming.
> While I
> >> >> can see Mesa/Manpower infiltrating and controlling big chunks of the
> >> League
> >> >> like puppets, I can see some parts of the League seeing thru this
> >> >> manipulation and breaking away, perhaps allying themselves with
> whatever
> >> >> anti-Mesa/Manpower alliance ends up being formed.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >I think that Mesa's penetration of assorted parts of the League is going
> >> >to be a factor increasing the fragmentation of the League.
> >> >
> >> >People who have sold out to someone outside their company (or nation)
> >> >are not going to defend their group. Why should they? Their emotionally
> >> >important source of income is from someone outside, and whatever group
> >> >they are betraying has proven it's self to be weak and unable to defend
> >> >it's self, plus whatever justifications the sell out makes for selling
> out.
> >> >
> >> >Mesa has systematically introduced such flaws where there needs to be
> >> >strength.
> >>
> >> And add to that the fact that the League's political setup may be OK in a
> >> situation where there are no real outside threats.
> >> However, that setup does seem extremely vulnerable to some force that may
> be
> >> intentionally trying to fracture it from the inside,
> >> particularly when there's an apparant external threat. The lack of a
> strong
> >> central government and an apparant political tradition
> >> against one seems to make the League vulnerable to any force which may
> >> covertly try to set League member planets against each other.
> >>
> >>
> >> It seems as if Mesa's strategy will be to force a breakup of the League,
> to
> >> have a number of warlord governors of various sectors
> >> in their pocket, and to eventually try to gain control over much of the
> >> League thru those warlord governors.
>
>
> >I don't know that mesa goals are that lofty. They may just be seeking
> >to have their own piece were they can do whatever they damn well please
> >
>
> But if their own goal was to create their own empire from something new, why
> hadn't they already gone into the Talbot sector,
> for example, and tried to take over that very underdeveloped region?
> Mesa/Manpower seems far too involved in covert operations
> in various governments and regions for merely gathering information.
>
> For example, their actions keeping the Manties and Haven fighting each other
> seems designed to weaken both so that
> neither can oppose Mesa at some later date.
>
> Also, Mesa seems to be trying to get its hooks into so many different
> places, that it's hard to imagine that they're not trying to
> create trouble in those places for their own benefit. And I find it hard to
> imagine that all that covert work would be for the benefit
> of setting up a new Mesan empire somewhere else.
>
> No, I think that the Mesans do have lofty and mysterious goals. Also, from
> a more practical perspective, I don't think that DW would
> be putting so much effort into developing the Mesans as new and mysterious
> bad guys if their goals weren't lofty and would impact
> the known Honorverse, as we already known it. I'm hard pressed to believe
> that all this effort (on both DW's and the Mesan's part)
> would be put into merely stirring up the pot to keep things unstable so that
> Mesa/Manpower could merely make more money.
> I firmly believe that there's something much, much larger behind all this.
maybe ambitious is better word the lofty. I see their primary goals as
being the conversion of as many surrounding systems as possible to
their master/slave+better living though genetics ideology so as to
buffer themselves from the rest of the galaxy at large they realize
that as one planet their a bug but if they can represent themselves as
culture or way of life much of which is part of the league they can't
be just stepped on. destroying the league I think is not part of their
plans if only because most of their power is within and dependent on
the league and breakup would hurt as much as help them and present
allot of smaller and more agile opponents than league they face today.
as to their role in the havenite-manty war I think they see as a
stalling and weakening tactic against to enemies that can't be traced
back to them. as I've said before they seem rather optimistic in
their culvert ops cutouts, possibly caused by the forgiving atmosphere
in the league.
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wendal wrote in message
<1162778266.536691.104280.RemoveThis@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
>
>Fred Burton wrote:
>> Offbreed wrote in message ...
>> >Fred Burton wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think that some sort of fragmentation of the League is coming.
While I
>> >> can see Mesa/Manpower infiltrating and controlling big chunks of the
>> League
>> >> like puppets, I can see some parts of the League seeing thru this
>> >> manipulation and breaking away, perhaps allying themselves with
whatever
>> >> anti-Mesa/Manpower alliance ends up being formed.
>> >
>> >
>> >I think that Mesa's penetration of assorted parts of the League is going
>> >to be a factor increasing the fragmentation of the League.
>> >
>> >People who have sold out to someone outside their company (or nation)
>> >are not going to defend their group. Why should they? Their emotionally
>> >important source of income is from someone outside, and whatever group
>> >they are betraying has proven it's self to be weak and unable to defend
>> >it's self, plus whatever justifications the sell out makes for selling
out.
>> >
>> >Mesa has systematically introduced such flaws where there needs to be
>> >strength.
>>
>> And add to that the fact that the League's political setup may be OK in a
>> situation where there are no real outside threats.
>> However, that setup does seem extremely vulnerable to some force that may
be
>> intentionally trying to fracture it from the inside,
>> particularly when there's an apparant external threat. The lack of a
strong
>> central government and an apparant political tradition
>> against one seems to make the League vulnerable to any force which may
>> covertly try to set League member planets against each other.
>>
>>
>> It seems as if Mesa's strategy will be to force a breakup of the League,
to
>> have a number of warlord governors of various sectors
>> in their pocket, and to eventually try to gain control over much of the
>> League thru those warlord governors.


>I don't know that mesa goals are that lofty. They may just be seeking
>to have their own piece were they can do whatever they damn well please
>

But if their own goal was to create their own empire from something new, why
hadn't they already gone into the Talbot sector,
for example, and tried to take over that very underdeveloped region?
Mesa/Manpower seems far too involved in covert operations
in various governments and regions for merely gathering information.

For example, their actions keeping the Manties and Haven fighting each other
seems designed to weaken both so that
neither can oppose Mesa at some later date.

Also, Mesa seems to be trying to get its hooks into so many different
places, that it's hard to imagine that they're not trying to
create trouble in those places for their own benefit. And I find it hard to
imagine that all that covert work would be for the benefit
of setting up a new Mesan empire somewhere else.

No, I think that the Mesans do have lofty and mysterious goals. Also, from
a more practical perspective, I don't think that DW would
be putting so much effort into developing the Mesans as new and mysterious
bad guys if their goals weren't lofty and would impact
the known Honorverse, as we already known it. I'm hard pressed to believe
that all this effort (on both DW's and the Mesan's part)
would be put into merely stirring up the pot to keep things unstable so that
Mesa/Manpower could merely make more money.
I firmly believe that there's something much, much larger behind all this.
 >> Stay informed about: Idle Speculation 

John Palmer wrote:


> Two responses, first is given how undeveloped most of the planet is, and how
> dangerous the planet's surface is reputed to be, couldn't the treecats disappear
> into the "brush"?

Likely they could.

> and second, I was asking about specifics. What was on the planetary surface that
> was so inimical to humanity (or atleast human slave harvesters which is not the
> same thing at all).

You ever work in 110F at 100% relative humidity?

At night. When it's cooler?
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"Offbreed" <offbreed_106.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:ppadnTCu_-WMsdHYnZ2dnUVZ_rSdnZ2d@scnresearch.com...
> deowll wrote:
>> "pyotr filipivich" <phamp.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>
>>> Can you say warlordism, as various sector governors offer "their skills
>>> and services in these times of trouble"?
>>
>> You are thinking Mercs for hire. The sector governors already have small
>> or not so small empires that they will want to claim and expand.
>
> No, They are "offering their leadership skills to their people in these
> times of trouble" at, ah, "great personal sacrifice". "Very reluctantly".
>
> IOW, declaring independence and fragmenting the League into a hundred
> pieces.
>
> I think the core of the Solarian League is a voluntary association, and
> those do not come apart easily. The outlaying regions were forced into
> association, and those are more likely to seek escape.


But you do have the pro Mesa and the anti Mesa worlds as well as the
conquered systems brought in by frontier security and maybe still being run
by governors at some level. The SL could easily fragment into a lot of star
nations non of which are larger than the Republic.

What happens is up to DW.
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"Fred Burton" <fburton DeleteThis @starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:eiitgp$1kp$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> Offbreed wrote in message ...
>>Fred Burton wrote:
>>
>>> I think that some sort of fragmentation of the League is coming. While
>>> I
>>> can see Mesa/Manpower infiltrating and controlling big chunks of the
> League
>>> like puppets, I can see some parts of the League seeing thru this
>>> manipulation and breaking away, perhaps allying themselves with whatever
>>> anti-Mesa/Manpower alliance ends up being formed.
>>
>>
>>I think that Mesa's penetration of assorted parts of the League is going
>>to be a factor increasing the fragmentation of the League.
>>
>>People who have sold out to someone outside their company (or nation)
>>are not going to defend their group. Why should they? Their emotionally
>>important source of income is from someone outside, and whatever group
>>they are betraying has proven it's self to be weak and unable to defend
>>it's self, plus whatever justifications the sell out makes for selling
>>out.
>>
>>Mesa has systematically introduced such flaws where there needs to be
>>strength.
>
> And add to that the fact that the League's political setup may be OK in a
> situation where there are no real outside threats.
> However, that setup does seem extremely vulnerable to some force that may
> be
> intentionally trying to fracture it from the inside,
> particularly when there's an apparant external threat. The lack of a
> strong
> central government and an apparant political tradition
> against one seems to make the League vulnerable to any force which may
> covertly try to set League member planets against each other.
>
>
> It seems as if Mesa's strategy will be to force a breakup of the League,
> to
> have a number of warlord governors of various sectors
> in their pocket, and to eventually try to gain control over much of the
> League thru those warlord governors.
>
>
>
Mesa already has strong allies and its own hidden navel base sort off.

One issue to me is that in a real situation like that a lot of the warlord
governers aren't going to take orders and be good little boys. They are
going to go for the gold ring. I could easily see a stituation developing
in which hundreds of systems ended up getting hell bombed. Sounds like a big
number but considering the number of systems in the league it would still
only be a fraction.
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"wendal" <aehoppy.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162777526.559244.74390@h54g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>
> deowll wrote:
>> "wendal" <aehoppy.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:1162530713.664867.93030@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > BrianBridgePro wrote:
>> >> One gets the
>> >> impression that Beowulf's system defense force is probably quite good
>> >> and rather more advanced then most of the League's other SDF's, but
>> >> not nearly as large as would be needed to project power in the new
>> >> realities of interstellar war as practiced in the Manticore - Haven
>> >> wars.
>> > I would not bet the bank on this they have also been descrbed as
>> > insular.
>>
>> They are a high tech leader in many fields of research and has been for
>> eons
>> with very close ties to Manticore. Compared to what the rest of the
>> League
>> has their equipment is good as a best guess. How much equipment they have
>> hasn't even been hinted at. I'm not left with the view that this is a
>> huge
>> force but neither can I claim it is a small force. Where do you get the
>> idea
>> they are insular?
>>
> I don't remember Beowulf being mentioned as outstanding in any thing
> other than the medical and social science fields.

Drives. Maybe worm holes. Not sure on that.

I read a DW post at web site. Okay a lot of posts at two web sites. DW says
they are one of the leading tech systems in the league in several sciences.
Stop and think about it. This is an old core world. They have been a tech
leader since before the blinking sails showed up. They still are. They
aren't a one trick pony.

DW can still make that play out any way he wants to.

He even said something about them having a better understanding of Manticore
weapons systems than others and staying silent about it.

The two systems are connected by junctions.

Both systems loath the volume of space Mesa desecrates but Beowulf loaths
them worst. Mesa is the reality of everything Beowulf doesn't like.

He didn't spell it out but I was left to assume their is some sort of fairly
close political connection formal or otherwise between Beowulf and
Manticore.

He seems to be considering having them join Manticore in some manner. Until
he writes a book a lot of this is subject to change without notice.


> as to their being insular I base that on comments relating to Alison
> harrington and the fact that while they are the origin of many ideas
> they are not mentioned as being directly involved and seem more like
> intellectuals interested in keeping their shoes clean than in shoveling
> muck

Could be but they are also described has having some fairly off the wall
life styles and social practices. Sound sort of liberterian to me. Some of
their people do seem to get around and please note where Alison met her
husband and where he came from.

>>
>> >
>> >> But it would seem that Beowulf does have both a huge economic
>> >> potential and , possibly even more important, a huge moral influence
>> >> that can be wielded diplomatically. An alliance of the more
>> >> progressive polities , particularly the oldest of Earth's settled
>> >> worlds would go a long way to equalizing the long term correlation of
>> >> forces.
>> >>
>> > maybe they could hire contractors to help with sillesian and talbot
>> > additions
>> > but we also have to remember that there have hints of manpower
>> > penetration on Beowulf
>>
>> No doubt but these two are mortal enemies according to DW.
>>
>
> all the more reason for Mesa to spend time infiltrating Beowulf as to
> mortal see above

Having agents is one thing. When the bleep hits the fan in a society with a
unified point of view the agents can play dirty tricks and steal
information but they had better do so in such a way it isn't obvious whom
they are working for. A known agent of Mesa would stand a good change of
breathing vacuum.

>
>> > then there is the fact that we know they have at least one agent in the
>> > havenite security apparatus although I don't know if if Kevin Usher has
>> > not
>> > come to this conclusion to
>> >
>> > One thing I have always thought funny is how people seem to misread
>> > Elizabeth for instance when they resumed the war the second time she
>> > was angry but it seemed to me she at least half that anger was at
>> > having to start the war again and would have been glad to find a reason
>> > blame some one else
>> >
>
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"wendal" <aehoppy RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162778266.536691.104280@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Fred Burton wrote:
>> Offbreed wrote in message ...
>> >Fred Burton wrote:
>> >
>> >> I think that some sort of fragmentation of the League is coming.
>> >> While I
>> >> can see Mesa/Manpower infiltrating and controlling big chunks of the
>> League
>> >> like puppets, I can see some parts of the League seeing thru this
>> >> manipulation and breaking away, perhaps allying themselves with
>> >> whatever
>> >> anti-Mesa/Manpower alliance ends up being formed.
>> >
>> >
>> >I think that Mesa's penetration of assorted parts of the League is going
>> >to be a factor increasing the fragmentation of the League.
>> >
>> >People who have sold out to someone outside their company (or nation)
>> >are not going to defend their group. Why should they? Their emotionally
>> >important source of income is from someone outside, and whatever group
>> >they are betraying has proven it's self to be weak and unable to defend
>> >it's self, plus whatever justifications the sell out makes for selling
>> >out.
>> >
>> >Mesa has systematically introduced such flaws where there needs to be
>> >strength.
>>
>> And add to that the fact that the League's political setup may be OK in a
>> situation where there are no real outside threats.
>> However, that setup does seem extremely vulnerable to some force that may
>> be
>> intentionally trying to fracture it from the inside,
>> particularly when there's an apparant external threat. The lack of a
>> strong
>> central government and an apparant political tradition
>> against one seems to make the League vulnerable to any force which may
>> covertly try to set League member planets against each other.
>>
>>
>> It seems as if Mesa's strategy will be to force a breakup of the League,
>> to
>> have a number of warlord governors of various sectors
>> in their pocket, and to eventually try to gain control over much of the
>> League thru those warlord governors.
> I don't know that mesa goals are that lofty. They may just be seeking
> to have their own piece were they can do whatever they damn well please
>

I thought they already had that? Nope I'm fairly sure that somewhere it was
said that they plan on running human space though not exactly in those
words.
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"wendal" <aehoppy DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162778822.839941.134860@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
>
> Offbreed wrote:
>> Fred Burton wrote:
>>
>> > It seems as if Mesa's strategy will be to force a breakup of the
>> > League, to
>> > have a number of warlord governors of various sectors
>> > in their pocket, and to eventually try to gain control over much of the
>> > League thru those warlord governors.
>>
>> I had not considered that possibility.
>>
>> That has an unpleasant plausibility to it.
>>
>> It might even work. Sort of.
>>
>> Dissident, or less powerful factions, breaking off from Manpower/Mesa
>> and setting up their own little kingdoms, all breeding up their
>> specialized slaves until they are hardly recognizable as humans, and
>> ending up fighting among themselves for status.
>>
>> Some truly nasty possibilities, assuming no one squashes them.
>
> ?Rebelus Mesans? they would just squash them them selves or cut them
> loose and ensure the League squashed them. and then there is the fact
> that they are probly condisioned to see the mesan system as the only
> one that matters
>

More like the cause is all that matters.
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"John Palmer" <jhnone.nospam RemoveThis @earthlink.invalid.net> wrote in message
news:bl7uk2p71et9ak4emc6j76e89bnbkfj9u8@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 05 Nov 2006 20:07:07 -0800, Offbreed <offbreed_106 RemoveThis @hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>>John Palmer wrote:
>>> in? And what makes Verdant Vista so dangerous anyway? Is it something
>>> that would
>>> not be such a threat to treecats, or even that treecats could mitigate
>>> for
>>> humans in exchange for a part of the pharmaceutical profits?
>>
>>Think of a whole planet like SE Asia. 'Cats can shed enough fur to live
>>there, so that's not likely to be a problem. Being someplace likely to
>>be invaded by genetic slavers who have wanted to get their hands on some
>>treecats to experiment with, does not seem a good idea.
>
> Two responses, first is given how undeveloped most of the planet is, and
> how
> dangerous the planet's surface is reputed to be, couldn't the treecats
> disappear
> into the "brush"?
> and second, I was asking about specifics. What was on the planetary
> surface that
> was so inimical to humanity (or atleast human slave harvesters which is
> not the
> same thing at all).

Please note the claim that this could be fixed apparently without much
trouble. Might have been as simple as what happened when the Russians were
building the trans-Siberian railroad and the Siberian tigers were eating
unarmed workers. The Russians had to bring in the army but in this case they
may have armed the workers.

> -
> John Palmer
> jhn1 RemoveThis @hotmail.com (swap one for 1)
> "That was the best pep talk ever", Sergeant Schlock
> http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20030608.html
 >> Stay informed about: Idle Speculation