Idle Speculation

External Since: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 1110

"Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@starfire.mv.com> wrote in message
news:einquf$1b2h$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> wendal wrote in message
> <1162778266.536691.104280.RemoveThis@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
>>
>>Fred Burton wrote:
>>> Offbreed wrote in message ...
>>> >Fred Burton wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> I think that some sort of fragmentation of the League is coming.
> While I
>>> >> can see Mesa/Manpower infiltrating and controlling big chunks of the
>>> League
>>> >> like puppets, I can see some parts of the League seeing thru this
>>> >> manipulation and breaking away, perhaps allying themselves with
> whatever
>>> >> anti-Mesa/Manpower alliance ends up being formed.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >I think that Mesa's penetration of assorted parts of the League is
>>> >going
>>> >to be a factor increasing the fragmentation of the League.
>>> >
>>> >People who have sold out to someone outside their company (or nation)
>>> >are not going to defend their group. Why should they? Their emotionally
>>> >important source of income is from someone outside, and whatever group
>>> >they are betraying has proven it's self to be weak and unable to defend
>>> >it's self, plus whatever justifications the sell out makes for selling
> out.
>>> >
>>> >Mesa has systematically introduced such flaws where there needs to be
>>> >strength.
>>>
>>> And add to that the fact that the League's political setup may be OK in
>>> a
>>> situation where there are no real outside threats.
>>> However, that setup does seem extremely vulnerable to some force that
>>> may
> be
>>> intentionally trying to fracture it from the inside,
>>> particularly when there's an apparant external threat. The lack of a
> strong
>>> central government and an apparant political tradition
>>> against one seems to make the League vulnerable to any force which may
>>> covertly try to set League member planets against each other.
>>>
>>>
>>> It seems as if Mesa's strategy will be to force a breakup of the League,
> to
>>> have a number of warlord governors of various sectors
>>> in their pocket, and to eventually try to gain control over much of the
>>> League thru those warlord governors.
>
>
>>I don't know that mesa goals are that lofty. They may just be seeking
>>to have their own piece were they can do whatever they damn well please
>>
>
> But if their own goal was to create their own empire from something new,
> why
> hadn't they already gone into the Talbot sector,
> for example, and tried to take over that very underdeveloped region?
> Mesa/Manpower seems far too involved in covert operations
> in various governments and regions for merely gathering information.
>
> For example, their actions keeping the Manties and Haven fighting each
> other
> seems designed to weaken both so that
> neither can oppose Mesa at some later date.
>
> Also, Mesa seems to be trying to get its hooks into so many different
> places, that it's hard to imagine that they're not trying to
> create trouble in those places for their own benefit. And I find it hard
> to
> imagine that all that covert work would be for the benefit
> of setting up a new Mesan empire somewhere else.

The data makes it clear that Mesans moved to new space from Beowulf and set
up. If they had wanted to forge their own Empire in unihabited space they
could have and should have done it back about the time their people were
killing the founder of the Mancticore navy.

This would have been the obvious ploy to me.

They seem to want to take over as the ruling elite in human space with the
sub men serving them but I still have the feeling that they have to rule the
sub men by pure fear.

>
> No, I think that the Mesans do have lofty and mysterious goals. Also,
> from
> a more practical perspective, I don't think that DW would
> be putting so much effort into developing the Mesans as new and mysterious
> bad guys if their goals weren't lofty and would impact
> the known Honorverse, as we already known it. I'm hard pressed to believe
> that all this effort (on both DW's and the Mesan's part)
> would be put into merely stirring up the pot to keep things unstable so
> that
> Mesa/Manpower could merely make more money.
> I firmly believe that there's something much, much larger behind all this.
>
>
>

External Since: Aug 13, 2003 Posts: 1110

"wendal" <aehoppy.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1162844114.931909.244890@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
>
> Fred Burton wrote:
>> wendal wrote in message
>> <1162778266.536691.104280.TakeThisOut@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>...
>> >
>> >Fred Burton wrote:
>> >> Offbreed wrote in message ...
>> >> >Fred Burton wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I think that some sort of fragmentation of the League is coming.
>> While I
>> >> >> can see Mesa/Manpower infiltrating and controlling big chunks of
>> >> >> the
>> >> League
>> >> >> like puppets, I can see some parts of the League seeing thru this
>> >> >> manipulation and breaking away, perhaps allying themselves with
>> whatever
>> >> >> anti-Mesa/Manpower alliance ends up being formed.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >I think that Mesa's penetration of assorted parts of the League is
>> >> >going
>> >> >to be a factor increasing the fragmentation of the League.
>> >> >
>> >> >People who have sold out to someone outside their company (or nation)
>> >> >are not going to defend their group. Why should they? Their
>> >> >emotionally
>> >> >important source of income is from someone outside, and whatever
>> >> >group
>> >> >they are betraying has proven it's self to be weak and unable to
>> >> >defend
>> >> >it's self, plus whatever justifications the sell out makes for
>> >> >selling
>> out.
>> >> >
>> >> >Mesa has systematically introduced such flaws where there needs to be
>> >> >strength.
>> >>
>> >> And add to that the fact that the League's political setup may be OK
>> >> in a
>> >> situation where there are no real outside threats.
>> >> However, that setup does seem extremely vulnerable to some force that
>> >> may
>> be
>> >> intentionally trying to fracture it from the inside,
>> >> particularly when there's an apparant external threat. The lack of a
>> strong
>> >> central government and an apparant political tradition
>> >> against one seems to make the League vulnerable to any force which may
>> >> covertly try to set League member planets against each other.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It seems as if Mesa's strategy will be to force a breakup of the
>> >> League,
>> to
>> >> have a number of warlord governors of various sectors
>> >> in their pocket, and to eventually try to gain control over much of
>> >> the
>> >> League thru those warlord governors.
>>
>>
>> >I don't know that mesa goals are that lofty. They may just be seeking
>> >to have their own piece were they can do whatever they damn well please
>> >
>>
>> But if their own goal was to create their own empire from something new,
>> why
>> hadn't they already gone into the Talbot sector,
>> for example, and tried to take over that very underdeveloped region?
>> Mesa/Manpower seems far too involved in covert operations
>> in various governments and regions for merely gathering information.
>>
>> For example, their actions keeping the Manties and Haven fighting each
>> other
>> seems designed to weaken both so that
>> neither can oppose Mesa at some later date.
>>
>> Also, Mesa seems to be trying to get its hooks into so many different
>> places, that it's hard to imagine that they're not trying to
>> create trouble in those places for their own benefit. And I find it hard
>> to
>> imagine that all that covert work would be for the benefit
>> of setting up a new Mesan empire somewhere else.
>>
>> No, I think that the Mesans do have lofty and mysterious goals. Also,
>> from
>> a more practical perspective, I don't think that DW would
>> be putting so much effort into developing the Mesans as new and
>> mysterious
>> bad guys if their goals weren't lofty and would impact
>> the known Honorverse, as we already known it. I'm hard pressed to
>> believe
>> that all this effort (on both DW's and the Mesan's part)
>> would be put into merely stirring up the pot to keep things unstable so
>> that
>> Mesa/Manpower could merely make more money.
>> I firmly believe that there's something much, much larger behind all
>> this.
> maybe ambitious is better word the lofty. I see their primary goals as
> being the conversion of as many surrounding systems as possible to
> their master/slave+better living though genetics ideology so as to
> buffer themselves from the rest of the galaxy at large they realize
> that as one planet their a bug but if they can represent themselves as
> culture or way of life much of which is part of the league they can't
> be just stepped on. destroying the league I think is not part of their
> plans if only because most of their power is within and dependent on
> the league and breakup would hurt as much as help them and present
> allot of smaller and more agile opponents than league they face today.
> as to their role in the havenite-manty war I think they see as a
> stalling and weakening tactic against to enemies that can't be traced
> back to them. as I've said before they seem rather optimistic in
> their culvert ops cutouts, possibly caused by the forgiving atmosphere
> in the league.
>

Traditionally their friends and allies in the League could act to protect
them from any uncouth barbarians they might happen to offend while
preventing the League itself from acting against them. This view is more
questionable now.