LOTR Forum

AC <mightymartianca.RemoveThis@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

 > Ah yes, Usenet, the written equivalent of food concentrate!

Though you are never quite sure what the taste will be like. Sometimes
you are left with a bad taste in your mouth. I am also sometimes
reminded of the Usenet aphorism about elephants and diarrhoea... And
sometimes you have to scrape the dead horse up off the street after the
crowd (or the single madman) has finished jumping up and down on it!

Hmm. I can't think of any _nice_ food-related metaphors for Usenet.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In message <news:qUSOd.395$%n2.35@news.get2net.dk> "Peter Andersen"
<account_name.DeleteThis@hotmail.com> enriched us with:
 >
 > alas, "Troels Forchhammer" <Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> regretfully
 > brought to our attention
 > news:Xns95F9D9EFE400T.Forch@130.133.1.4...
  >>
  >> We are sadly lacking a tradition for writing and reading dialect
  >> and older Danish, which makes the differences in vernacular
  >> between the characters miniscule at best -- that was, for me,
  >> something of a revelation when I first read Tolkien in English:
  >> the number of different vernaculars he managed to write in.
 >
 > It would seem like poor fiscal judgement to publish new
 > litterature in older Danish.

Well, in particular if you mean entirely in older Danish.

 > Tradition in this matter IME point more towards 'renewing' the
 > language older works, rather than the other way around.

Yes, that is my impression as well. I do think it's sad, though.

Why don't we preserve a 'working knowledge' of older Danish? I think we
ought to encounter H.C. Andersen, Heiberg, Holberg etc. in the original
versions in school rather than the modernised versions.

 > I'm no expert, but perhaps the relatively strong awareness of
 > Shakespeare a.o. in contemporary english speaking cultures, has
 > sort of paved the way for, and 'prepared' readers to deal with
 > this kind of literary 'spice'.

Exactly.

I think it is sad that we are lacking the same tradition in Danish --
it robs our authors of alternative ways of expression.

 > As for dialects; none that I know of, have a literary counterpart
 > to the spoken word.

I have seen the dialects of Sønderborg and rural Als in writing, and
though I could hardly read it (and some passages not at all), I think
it is a good thing that ought to be encouraged.

 > There are however texts like those of Saxo Grammaticus and parts,
 > I guess, of the Icelandic Sagas, which are'widely' accessible, but
 > they _were_ then written in concurrent language.

The Icelandic Sagas are possibly too old -- their language is now a
foreign language at the level of e.g. German or contemporary Icelandic.

Saxo, IIRC, wrote his /Gesta Danorum/ (spelling?) in Latin, and I am
not aware how old are the earliest preserved translations into Danish.

 > It would seem a tough and marginal marked to break into
 > "..in todays modern expanding industrialized economy" (Q:MoPy).

There is probably no market at the moment -- what I would like to see
is the introduction of older texts in school, e.g. the authors I
mention above (I believe that most, if not all, of them are on the
recent list of 'national canon' -- whatever one might think of that
concept).

 > I fully agree, it would have been nice, but in the meantime I
 > guess we'll just have to do with the likes of Tolkien, which,
 > evidently, is a nice substitute.

The big problem is that such a tradition is necessary to translate
Tolkien fully into Danish. The changes of vernacular we see in LotR are
intranslatable unless such a system is in place -- I think it's a far
more severe 'error' in the translation that Aragorn speaks in the same
vernacular as Ted Sandyman than the other errors that have been
mentioned, and a re-translation (there was something in Politiken about
Tolkien fans wanting a re-translation) would, IMO, be pointless if
these changes in vernacular are not considered.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great
men are almost always bad men.
- Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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In message <news:o9rn01tolfvjq35boucnvvo3i7dkr3odke@4ax.com>
the softrat <softrat.DeleteThis@pobox.com> enriched us with:
 >
 > On 10 Feb 2005 20:22:28 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
 > <Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
  >>
  >> We are sadly lacking a tradition for writing and reading dialect and
  >> older Danish, which makes the differences in vernacular between the
  >> characters miniscule at best -- that was, for me, something of a
  >> revelation when I first read Tolkien in English: the number of
  >> different vernaculars he managed to write in.
 >
 > You could always go for the language of the Eddas and Sagas. It aint
 > Danish, but it *is* older. (There aint much written in Old Danish
 > anyway.)

The tradition that I have been taught is that the language of the Eddas
and Sagas is 'Old Norse' -- a language that was common for all the
Norse peoples (the Icelandic, Faroese and Scandinavians of today) --
that they are written in something that is Old Danish, or close enough
to make no difference.

This may, of course, be merely a national myth -- I am certainly no
expert.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk>

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great
men are almost always bad men.
- Lord Acton, in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton, 1887.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On 12 Feb 2005 16:31:14 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
 >
 >The tradition that I have been taught is that the language of the Eddas
 >and Sagas is 'Old Norse' -- a language that was common for all the
 >Norse peoples (the Icelandic, Faroese and Scandinavians of today) --
 >that they are written in something that is Old Danish, or close enough
 >to make no difference.
 >
 >This may, of course, be merely a national myth -- I am certainly no
 >expert.
 >
Tolkien's buddy, E. V. Gordon, disagrees. see _An Introduction to Old
Norse_, by E. V. Gordon. Common Scandanavian is older than 'Old
Norse'. The language of the Eddas and Sagas is late Old Icelandic, a
dialect of Old West Norse. Old Danish is a dialect of Old East Norse.


the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
"It is generally inadvisable to eject directly over the area you
just bombed" - U.S. Air Force flight training manual<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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"Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard RemoveThis @blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1H8Pd.12338$8B3.5395@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
 > AC <mightymartianca RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
 >
 > <snip>
 >
  > > Ah yes, Usenet, the written equivalent of food concentrate!
 >
 > Though you are never quite sure what the taste will be like. Sometimes
 > you are left with a bad taste in your mouth. I am also sometimes
 > reminded of the Usenet aphorism about elephants and diarrhoea... And
 > sometimes you have to scrape the dead horse up off the street after the
 > crowd (or the single madman) has finished jumping up and down on it!
 >
 > Hmm. I can't think of any _nice_ food-related metaphors for Usenet.

How about potato chips: you can't eat just one, and you can't merely stop at
one post, or even one thread? *grin*
Barbara
 ><!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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aelfwina <aelfwina.TakeThisOut@cableone.net> wrote:
 > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spamgard.TakeThisOut@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in message
 > news:1H8Pd.12338$8B3.5395@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
  >> AC <mightymartianca.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
  >>
  >> <snip>
  >>
   >>> Ah yes, Usenet, the written equivalent of food concentrate!
  >>
  >> Though you are never quite sure what the taste will be like.
  >> Sometimes you are left with a bad taste in your mouth. I am also
  >> sometimes reminded of the Usenet aphorism about elephants and
  >> diarrhoea... And sometimes you have to scrape the dead horse up off
  >> the street after the crowd (or the single madman) has finished
  >> jumping up and down on it!
  >>
  >> Hmm. I can't think of any _nice_ food-related metaphors for Usenet.
 >
 > How about potato chips: you can't eat just one, and you can't merely
 > stop at one post, or even one thread? *grin*

That works!

Once you pop, you just can't stop!

[Brandname = Pringles]

Though this still doesn't have quite the right _positive_ connotations!<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
 > In message <news:o9rn01tolfvjq35boucnvvo3i7dkr3odke@4ax.com>
 > the softrat <softrat.DeleteThis@pobox.com> enriched us with:
 >
  >>On 10 Feb 2005 20:22:28 GMT, Troels Forchhammer
  >><Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:
  >>
   >>>We are sadly lacking a tradition for writing and reading dialect and
   >>>older Danish, which makes the differences in vernacular between the
   >>>characters miniscule at best -- that was, for me, something of a
   >>>revelation when I first read Tolkien in English: the number of
   >>>different vernaculars he managed to write in.
  >>
  >>You could always go for the language of the Eddas and Sagas. It aint
  >>Danish, but it *is* older. (There aint much written in Old Danish
  >>anyway.)
 >
 >
 > The tradition that I have been taught is that the language of the Eddas
 > and Sagas is 'Old Norse' -- a language that was common for all the
 > Norse peoples (the Icelandic, Faroese and Scandinavians of today) --
 > that they are written in something that is Old Danish, or close enough
 > to make no difference.
 >
 > This may, of course, be merely a national myth -- I am certainly no
 > expert.
 >
It is sometimes called Old Icelandic too. But yes, that's true, I have
a Danish friend who's looked at some of the Old Norse sermons I was
working on and she read them without difficulty except an occasional
spelling difference. So it seems that modern Danish hasn't evolved far
from its root.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:44:43 -0600, in rec.arts.books.tolkien Larry
Swain <theswain.TakeThisOut@operamail.com> wrote:
 >
 >It is sometimes called Old Icelandic too. But yes, that's true, I have
 >a Danish friend who's looked at some of the Old Norse sermons I was
 >working on and she read them without difficulty except an occasional
 >spelling difference. So it seems that modern Danish hasn't evolved far
 >from its root.

However Eric Valentine Gordon and I do not believe that Danish and
Icelandic are father and son, but close sisters.

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
I love defenceless animals, especially in a good gravy.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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the softrat wrote:
 > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:44:43 -0600, in rec.arts.books.tolkien Larry
 > Swain <theswain.DeleteThis@operamail.com> wrote:
 >
  >>It is sometimes called Old Icelandic too. But yes, that's true, I have
  >>a Danish friend who's looked at some of the Old Norse sermons I was
  >>working on and she read them without difficulty except an occasional
  >>spelling difference. So it seems that modern Danish hasn't evolved far
 >
  >>from its root.
 >
 > However Eric Valentine Gordon and I do not believe that Danish and
 > Icelandic are father and son, but close sisters.

Well, I'm sure Eric Valentine Gordon rests easily to know that you
believe that Danish and Icelandic are close kin from the common root.
In any case, I think you've misunderstood what I said. The language
called "Old Norse" is called by some scholars "Old Icelandic"--i. e.
different names for the same thing. You, on the other hand, I take to be
referring not to the parent language as I was, but to the descendants of
Danish and Icelandic, related, but clearly different than what I was
referring to.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:07:34 -0600, Larry Swain
<theswain DeleteThis @operamail.com> wrote:
>the softrat wrote:
>> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:44:43 -0600, in rec.arts.books.tolkien Larry
>> Swain <theswain DeleteThis @operamail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>It is sometimes called Old Icelandic too. But yes, that's true, I have
>>>a Danish friend who's looked at some of the Old Norse sermons I was
>>>working on and she read them without difficulty except an occasional
>>>spelling difference. So it seems that modern Danish hasn't evolved far
>>>from its root.
>>
>> However Eric Valentine Gordon and I do not believe that Danish and
>> Icelandic are father and son, but close sisters.
>
>Well, I'm sure Eric Valentine Gordon rests easily to know that you
>believe that Danish and Icelandic are close kin from the common root.
>In any case, I think you've misunderstood what I said. The language
>called "Old Norse" is called by some scholars "Old Icelandic"--i. e.
>different names for the same thing. You, on the other hand, I take to be
>referring not to the parent language as I was, but to the descendants of
>Danish and Icelandic, related, but clearly different than what I was
>referring to.

Larry, I looked at what you wrote. Your response ended with '...from
its root'. A close antecedent for 'its' is 'Old Norse'; another nearer
antecedent is 'Danish'. You meant 'Danish'; I chose 'Old Norse',
because otherwise the response ended with what appeared to me to be an
irrelevant statement: 'modern Danish hasn't evolved far from (its)
Danish root'. Because of the ambiguity of the term 'Old Norse', we
need to be very precise. Use 'Old Icelandic' if that is what you mean.
Otherwise 'Old Norse' can be taken to refer either to the common
ancestor of the West Scandinavian languages (Old Norwegian and Old
Icelandic) or the common ancestor of all the Scandinavian languages.

Wes þu hal!

ts

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
Alas, usenet is where one will often see crowds of people
jumping up and down on the greasy smear on the pavement that
used to be a dead horse. --Nyrath the Nearly Wise
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the softrat wrote:
 > On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:07:34 -0600, Larry Swain
 > <theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com> wrote:
 >
  >>the softrat wrote:
  >>
   >>>On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:44:43 -0600, in rec.arts.books.tolkien Larry
   >>>Swain <theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com> wrote:
   >>>
   >>>
   >>>>It is sometimes called Old Icelandic too. But yes, that's true, I have
   >>>>a Danish friend who's looked at some of the Old Norse sermons I was
   >>>>working on and she read them without difficulty except an occasional
   >>>>spelling difference. So it seems that modern Danish hasn't evolved far
   >>>
   >>>>from its root.
   >>>
   >>>However Eric Valentine Gordon and I do not believe that Danish and
   >>>Icelandic are father and son, but close sisters.
  >>
  >>Well, I'm sure Eric Valentine Gordon rests easily to know that you
  >>believe that Danish and Icelandic are close kin from the common root.
  >>In any case, I think you've misunderstood what I said. The language
  >>called "Old Norse" is called by some scholars "Old Icelandic"--i. e.
  >>different names for the same thing. You, on the other hand, I take to be
  >>referring not to the parent language as I was, but to the descendants of
  >>Danish and Icelandic, related, but clearly different than what I was
  >>referring to.
 >
 >
 > Larry, I looked at what you wrote. Your response ended with '...from
 > its root'. A close antecedent for 'its' is 'Old Norse'; another nearer
 > antecedent is 'Danish'. You meant 'Danish'; I chose 'Old Norse',
 > because otherwise the response ended with what appeared to me to be an
 > irrelevant statement: 'modern Danish hasn't evolved far from (its)
 > Danish root'.

That's silly. Considering that the material being read by the modern
Danish speaker was a collection of Old Norse sermons, it is difficult to
see where "its root" would refer to *DANISH* rather than Old Norse,
otherwise we have the nonsense statement that a language hasn't evolved
from itself as evidenced by speaker of said language reading a different
language.




Because of the ambiguity of the term 'Old Norse', we
 > need to be very precise. Use 'Old Icelandic' if that is what you mean.

This is the problem I'm pointing out. E. V. Gordon isn't the only
scholar out there nor is he the final word. Some scholars refer to it
as Old Norse, other scholars refer to it as Old Icelandic--that is,
there is ambiguity in the field depending on whom you are reading and
what training they have received. I was merely pointing that fact out.
The ambiguity is in the field.


 > Otherwise 'Old Norse' can be taken to refer either to the common
 > ancestor of the West Scandinavian languages (Old Norwegian and Old
 > Icelandic) or the common ancestor of all the Scandinavian languages.
 >
 > Wes þu hal!
 >
 > ts
 >
 > the softrat
 > "Honi soit qui mal y pense."
 > mailto:softrat@pobox.com
 > --
 > Alas, usenet is where one will often see crowds of people
 > jumping up and down on the greasy smear on the pavement that
 > used to be a dead horse. --Nyrath the Nearly Wise<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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On Mon, 14 Feb 2005 14:32:49 -0600, Larry Swain
<theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com> wrote:
 >the softrat wrote:
  >> On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 23:07:34 -0600, Larry Swain
  >> <theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com> wrote:
   >>>the softrat wrote:
   >>>>On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 00:44:43 -0600, in rec.arts.books.tolkien Larry
   >>>>Swain <theswain.RemoveThis@operamail.com> wrote:
   >>>>
   >>>>>It is sometimes called Old Icelandic too. But yes, that's true, I have
   >>>>>a Danish friend who's looked at some of the Old Norse sermons I was
   >>>>>working on and she read them without difficulty except an occasional
   >>>>>spelling difference. So it seems that modern Danish hasn't evolved far
   >>>>
   >>>>>from its root.
   >>>>
   >>>>However Eric Valentine Gordon and I do not believe that Danish and
   >>>>Icelandic are father and son, but close sisters.
   >>>
   >>>Well, I'm sure Eric Valentine Gordon rests easily to know that you
   >>>believe that Danish and Icelandic are close kin from the common root.
   >>>In any case, I think you've misunderstood what I said. The language
   >>>called "Old Norse" is called by some scholars "Old Icelandic"--i. e.
   >>>different names for the same thing. You, on the other hand, I take to be
   >>>referring not to the parent language as I was, but to the descendants of
   >>>Danish and Icelandic, related, but clearly different than what I was
   >>>referring to.
  >>
  >> Larry, I looked at what you wrote. Your response ended with '...from
  >> its root'. A close antecedent for 'its' is 'Old Norse'; another nearer
  >> antecedent is 'Danish'. You meant 'Danish'; I chose 'Old Norse',
  >> because otherwise the response ended with what appeared to me to be an
  >> irrelevant statement: 'modern Danish hasn't evolved far from (its)
  >> Danish root'.
 >
 >That's silly. Considering that the material being read by the modern
 >Danish speaker was a collection of Old Norse sermons, it is difficult to
 >see where "its root" would refer to *DANISH* rather than Old Norse,
 >otherwise we have the nonsense statement that a language hasn't evolved
 >from itself as evidenced by speaker of said language reading a different
 >language.
 >
 >Because of the ambiguity of the term 'Old Norse', we
  >> need to be very precise. Use 'Old Icelandic' if that is what you mean.
 >
 >This is the problem I'm pointing out. E. V. Gordon isn't the only
 >scholar out there nor is he the final word. Some scholars refer to it
 >as Old Norse, other scholars refer to it as Old Icelandic--that is,
 >there is ambiguity in the field depending on whom you are reading and
 >what training they have received. I was merely pointing that fact out.
 > The ambiguity is in the field.
 >
  >> Otherwise 'Old Norse' can be taken to refer either to the common
  >> ancestor of the West Scandinavian languages (Old Norwegian and Old
  >> Icelandic) or the common ancestor of all the Scandinavian languages.
  >>
  >> Wes þu hal!
  >>
  >> the softrat
  >> --
  >> Alas, usenet is where one will often see crowds of people
  >> jumping up and down on the greasy smear on the pavement that
  >> used to be a dead horse. --Nyrath the Nearly Wise
 >
I think that I will follow Nyrath the Nearly Wise on this one.....

the softrat
"Honi soit qui mal y pense."
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
Invalid thought detected. Close all mental processes and restart
body.<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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Larry Swain wrote:
 >
 > Some scholars refer to it
 > as Old Norse, other scholars refer to it as Old Icelandic--that is,
 > there is ambiguity in the field depending on whom you are reading and
 > what training they have received. I was merely pointing that fact out.
 > The ambiguity is in the field.

And some scholars have both an Old Norse and an Old Icelandic.
This tree is from the American Heritage Dictionary of
Indo-European Roots, 2/e, 2000:

N. Gmc. --+-- O. Norse --+-- O. Icelandic -- Icelandic
| |
| +-- Faroese
| |
| +-- O. Norwegian -- Mid. Norw. -- Norw.
|
+----------------- O. Swedish -- Mid. Sw. -- Sw.
|
+----------------- O. Danish -- Mid. Dan. -- Dan.


--
Thomas M. Sommers -- tms.RemoveThis@nj.net -- AB2SB<!-- ~MESSAGE_AFTER~ -->
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