Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!?

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:09:24 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:

> mimf <mimf.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:pan.2007.08.23.14.32.44.93090@nospam.com:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:23:56 +0000, wanyikuli wrote:
>
>>> I understand a lot of readers were not happy with what Morrisson had
>>> Magneto do though (but he was doped!!)?
>>
>> But in Morrison's story he doped himself, and there's some argument
>> about whether Magneto would take drugs or not. Where would he get them
>> in bombed out Genosha anyway?
>
> Didn't Magneto use Fabian Cortez to do exactly the same thing?

Didn't Cortez tell Magneto he had a healing power? That's a bit different
from taking a drug.

> With Cortez not around, he found something else. If you read Planet
> X, you see that Magneto never intended to use Kick on a continual basis.

It's been quite a while since I read it, but I don't remember reading
anything about him planning to stop.

> As for where he got it...couldn't you ask the same thing about a guy
> trapped in a Chinese prison since he was young? Magneto - or Xorn - had
> plenty of time free from prison to get whatever he needed.

Well Xorn did, if he was really in a Chinese prison. But Magneto wasn't in
prison when Genosha was attacked. So if Magneto were Xorn, how'd he get
himself stuck in a Chinese prison? Was it ever verified how long he'd been
there or did the X-Men take his word for it? Or am I confusing Xorn with
Xorn's brother?
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

mimf <mimf RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote in
news:pan.2007.08.23.14.18.17.710448@nospam.com:
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:26:11 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>> mimf <mimf RemoveThis @nospam.com> wrote in
>> news:pan.2007.08.22.16.30.48.844446@nospam.com:
>>

>>> I assume it's because Marvel wants Magneto as an antihero rather
>>> than a complete villain. If he'd done everything Morrison wrote him
>>> as doing, even with the excuse of being doped out of his mind, he'd
>>> be irredeemable.
>>
>> Having just gone through Morrison's run the other day, it becomes
>> clear that Kick - which is actually Sublime - was exerting a lot more
>> influence on users than it otherwise seemed. Sublim affected the
>> U-Men, Kick, Cassandra Nova, Esme of the Cuckoos, Kid Omega, and
>> Magneto. The entire run centered around how Sublime made everything
>> snowball.
>
> Morrison's Magneto still did what he did though. If you kill someone
> while you're high, you're still responsible and people remember you
> for it.

Kick *was* Sublime. Specifically, Kick was Sublime in aerosal form.
That's how Sublime took Beast's body for its own, when Beast finally
broke down and used Kick.

It isn't quite as simple as you say, because Sublime was out to
escalate conflict between mutants and humans. Sure, it had an easy
time with Magneto. But it also takes Beast. It presumably could have
turned Scott, Emma, Xavier, or others. Most people have something in
them that could be twisted.

> They think there's some part of you that would want to do
> that, even when not high.

You are right about this though. Possibly on two levels.

People would wonder about Magneto, particularly since he already
has a very checkered and mostly negative history. Killing humans in
New York? He's repeatedly openly waged a war against humanity. He
started as a straight-forward villain threatening humankind. He's
also made bad decisions before, and shown mental issues. Flipping
out and slaughtering a city has long been a potential Magneto act.

The other level is that aspects of Sublime-influenced people
seemed to show through, at least for the limited cases we were
given. Magneto went to what he knew, the death camps of WWII
Germany. Sublime takes full control of Beast, but the result is
something that could have as easily have been some kind of alternate
history Beast, with his genetic tinkering as the world burns. (Heck,
look at Dark Beast.)

Of course, we don't know how much of Magneto's acts were Magneto
himself. Maybe there was a part in him that wanted to turn the tables
on humans and send them to death camps. Or maybe that was Sublime,
and the WWII similarities are because those images were in Magneto's
mind to be used. When he'd think of genocide, he'd either think of
WWII or the recent destruction of Genosha, after all. Possibly it
was even against Magneto's normal will, with Sublime just favoring
what it found there. Basically, a writer could choose ever how much
they wanted Magneto to be responsible. Maybe he had near full control
or maybe he had none. Marvel instead just chose to make it not be
Magneto at all.

And back to what people thought, you've got Claremont's New
Excalibur... There Xavier seemed to be up to something, and most
people weren't able to fully recognize Magneto. Claremont did try
to address the aftermath, as even an imposter would damage Magneto's
image. But House of M derailed that. Claremont also had Magneto
feeling guilty for what he was told an imposter had done. Again
a storyline derailed by House of M. (And if it weren't for Marvel
ordering Xorneto and another Xorn, there was also the possibility
that Xavier had faked Magneto's death in New York with plans to
try to redeem him hidden in the ruins of Genosha. Xavier would have
known Magneto wasn't in his right mind in New York, and saving him
wouldn't have been entirely out of character even with Jean's death.)

>> BTW, Here Comes Tomorrow also mentioned that Beast lied when he said
>> he'd cured the E-Gene. If mutants die out, the human race isn't far
>> behind.
>
> That would have been an interesting story idea to have followed up on,
> but I think they've dropped it. The E-Gene might explain why the High
> Evolutionary "evolves" animals instead of people.

Marvel dropped the E-gene after Morrison left.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 21:34:34 +0000, wanyikuli wrote:

> On Aug 22, 12:30 pm, mimf <m... DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote:
>
>> > But that assumes they'd make any less money if the writers write.
>> > Isn't Grant Morrison enough of a star that he'd have sold regardless?
>> > Why undo Xorn being Magneto?
>>
>> I assume it's because Marvel wants Magneto as an antihero rather than a
>> complete villain. If he'd done everything Morrison wrote him as doing,
>> even with the excuse of being doped out of his mind, he'd be
>> irredeemable.
>
> Check out this thread I started 6 years ago.

Thanks for the link. It's an interesting discussion.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

wanyikuli RemoveThis @gmail.com wrote in
news:1187904889.321931.263750@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:

> http://tinyurl.com/yo2ow3

How'd I manage to miss that one? It must have been just when I was
returning to comics (with NXM 114) and hadn't yet gotten back to Usenet.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

mimf <mimf DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote in
news:pan.2007.08.24.02.45.08.987237@nospam.com:

> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:09:24 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>
>> mimf <mimf DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote in
>> news:pan.2007.08.23.14.32.44.93090@nospam.com:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:23:56 +0000, wanyikuli wrote:
>>
>>>> I understand a lot of readers were not happy with what Morrisson
>>>> had Magneto do though (but he was doped!!)?
>>>
>>> But in Morrison's story he doped himself, and there's some argument
>>> about whether Magneto would take drugs or not. Where would he get
>>> them in bombed out Genosha anyway?
>>
>> Didn't Magneto use Fabian Cortez to do exactly the same thing?
>
> Didn't Cortez tell Magneto he had a healing power? That's a bit
> different from taking a drug.

Did he? I know Cortez's real power was enhancing the powers of others.
I also know that, like Kick, it had negative side-effects.

> Well Xorn did, if he was really in a Chinese prison. But Magneto
> wasn't in prison when Genosha was attacked. So if Magneto were Xorn,
> how'd he get himself stuck in a Chinese prison? Was it ever verified
> how long he'd been there or did the X-Men take his word for it? Or am
> I confusing Xorn with Xorn's brother?

Magneto explains that he built the Feng Tu using allies he had in China.
If he had Chinese contacts he almost certainly had contacts all over
the world.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

On 23 Aug 2007 23:52:51 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
wrote:

>wanyikuli@gmail.com wrote in
>news:1187904889.321931.263750@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>
>> http://tinyurl.com/yo2ow3
>
>How'd I manage to miss that one? It must have been just when I was
>returning to comics (with NXM 114) and hadn't yet gotten back to Usenet.

Wow - I'm on that thread too! Whatever happened to all those people
anyway? Especially my alter ego Brian Doyle whose views often seemed
to mirror mine ...
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 03:40:51 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:

> mimf <mimf.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:pan.2007.08.24.02.45.08.987237@nospam.com:
>
>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:09:24 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>>
>>> mimf <mimf.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in
>>> news:pan.2007.08.23.14.32.44.93090@nospam.com:
>>>
>>>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 13:23:56 +0000, wanyikuli wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I understand a lot of readers were not happy with what Morrisson had
>>>>> Magneto do though (but he was doped!!)?
>>>>
>>>> But in Morrison's story he doped himself, and there's some argument
>>>> about whether Magneto would take drugs or not. Where would he get them
>>>> in bombed out Genosha anyway?
>>>
>>> Didn't Magneto use Fabian Cortez to do exactly the same thing?
>>
>> Didn't Cortez tell Magneto he had a healing power? That's a bit
>> different from taking a drug.
>
> Did he? I know Cortez's real power was enhancing the powers of others.

I'd have to go through my back issues to find out the exact wording.

> I also know that, like Kick, it had negative side-effects.

Eventually that became obvious. He continued using Cortez because he
didn't feel it was politically expedient to risk appearing weak in front
of the world.

>> Well Xorn did, if he was really in a Chinese prison. But Magneto wasn't
>> in prison when Genosha was attacked. So if Magneto were Xorn, how'd he
>> get himself stuck in a Chinese prison? Was it ever verified how long
>> he'd been there or did the X-Men take his word for it? Or am I
>> confusing Xorn with Xorn's brother?
>
> Magneto explains that he built the Feng Tu using allies he had in China.
> If he had Chinese contacts he almost certainly had contacts all over
> the world.

I think he'd have had to have acquired them through Sublime/Kick
taking them over then. I don't think there are that many mutants in China,
let alone any who'd follow his orders the way the Acolytes did.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 23:01:04 +0000, Billy Bissette wrote:

> mimf <mimf.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in
> news:pan.2007.08.23.14.18.17.710448@nospam.com:
>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:26:11 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>>> mimf <mimf.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in
>>> news:pan.2007.08.22.16.30.48.844446@nospam.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>> I assume it's because Marvel wants Magneto as an antihero rather than
>>>> a complete villain. If he'd done everything Morrison wrote him as
>>>> doing, even with the excuse of being doped out of his mind, he'd be
>>>> irredeemable.
>>>
>>> Having just gone through Morrison's run the other day, it becomes clear
>>> that Kick - which is actually Sublime - was exerting a lot more
>>> influence on users than it otherwise seemed. Sublim affected the
>>> U-Men, Kick, Cassandra Nova, Esme of the Cuckoos, Kid Omega, and
>>> Magneto. The entire run centered around how Sublime made everything
>>> snowball.
>>
>> Morrison's Magneto still did what he did though. If you kill someone
>> while you're high, you're still responsible and people remember you for
>> it.
>
> Kick *was* Sublime. Specifically, Kick was Sublime in aerosal form.
> That's how Sublime took Beast's body for its own, when Beast finally broke
> down and used Kick.
>
> It isn't quite as simple as you say, because Sublime was out to
> escalate conflict between mutants and humans. Sure, it had an easy time
> with Magneto. But it also takes Beast. It presumably could have turned
> Scott, Emma, Xavier, or others. Most people have something in them that
> could be twisted.
>
>> They think there's some part of you that would want to do that, even
>> when not high.
>
> You are right about this though. Possibly on two levels.
>
> People would wonder about Magneto, particularly since he already
> has a very checkered and mostly negative history. Killing humans in New
> York? He's repeatedly openly waged a war against humanity. He started as
> a straight-forward villain threatening humankind. He's also made bad
> decisions before, and shown mental issues. Flipping out and slaughtering
> a city has long been a potential Magneto act.
>
> The other level is that aspects of Sublime-influenced people
> seemed to show through, at least for the limited cases we were given.
> Magneto went to what he knew, the death camps of WWII Germany. Sublime
> takes full control of Beast, but the result is something that could have
> as easily have been some kind of alternate history Beast, with his genetic
> tinkering as the world burns. (Heck, look at Dark Beast.)
>
> Of course, we don't know how much of Magneto's acts were Magneto
> himself. Maybe there was a part in him that wanted to turn the tables on
> humans and send them to death camps. Or maybe that was Sublime, and the
> WWII similarities are because those images were in Magneto's mind to be
> used. When he'd think of genocide, he'd either think of WWII or the
> recent destruction of Genosha, after all. Possibly it was even against
> Magneto's normal will, with Sublime just favoring what it found there.
> Basically, a writer could choose ever how much they wanted Magneto to be
> responsible. Maybe he had near full control or maybe he had none. Marvel
> instead just chose to make it not be Magneto at all.

That's actually the best explanation I've read of why a Sublime-possessed
Magneto would use the concentration camp thing.

> And back to what people thought, you've got Claremont's New
> Excalibur... There Xavier seemed to be up to something, and most people
> weren't able to fully recognize Magneto.

I thought that was odd. I guess they didn't know him without his costume
and assumed he'd been killed during the Sentinel attack.

> Claremont did try to address the
> aftermath, as even an imposter would damage Magneto's image. But House of
> M derailed that. Claremont also had Magneto feeling guilty for what he
> was told an imposter had done.

And strangely, he seemed surprised that people thought him capable of it.

> Again a storyline derailed by House of M.

Alas.

>(And if it weren't for Marvel
> ordering Xorneto and another Xorn, there was also the possibility that
> Xavier had faked Magneto's death in New York with plans to try to redeem
> him hidden in the ruins of Genosha. Xavier would have known Magneto
> wasn't in his right mind in New York, and saving him wouldn't have been
> entirely out of character even with Jean's death.)

Especially since Jean always comes back.

>>> BTW, Here Comes Tomorrow also mentioned that Beast lied when he said
>>> he'd cured the E-Gene. If mutants die out, the human race isn't far
>>> behind.
>>
>> That would have been an interesting story idea to have followed up on,
>> but I think they've dropped it. The E-Gene might explain why the High
>> Evolutionary "evolves" animals instead of people.
>
> Marvel dropped the E-gene after Morrison left.

Too bad.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:12:29 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:

> mimf <mimf DeleteThis @nospam.com> wrote in
> news:pan.2007.08.23.14.18.17.710448@nospam.com:
>
>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:26:11 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>
>>> Having just gone through Morrison's run the other day, it becomes clear
>>> that Kick - which is actually Sublime - was exerting a lot more
>>> influence on users than it otherwise seemed. Sublim affected the
>>> U-Men, Kick, Cassandra Nova, Esme of the Cuckoos, Kid Omega, and
>>> Magneto. The entire run centered around how Sublime made everything
>>> snowball.
>>
>> Morrison's Magneto still did what he did though. If you kill someone
>> while you're high, you're still responsible and people remember you for
>> it. They think there's some part of you that would want to do that, even
>> when not high.
>
> There's some indication that Sublime was guiding everything. Note that in
> Here Comes Tomorrow that Beast had been completely taken over by Sublime
> because he took Kick. See where I'm going with this?

Yes. Especially after reading Billy's post. I think my biggest problem is
the lack of explanation of how and why he'd take Kick in the first place.
Where would he get it? Why would he use it? How long would he have used it
before it got control of him and he came up with this weird plan to
disguise himself as Xorn and attack New York? Emma Frost said she sampled
Kick once, and there weren't any apparant ill term effects in her.

>>> BTW, Here Comes Tomorrow also mentioned that Beast lied when he said
>>> he'd cured the E-Gene. If mutants die out, the human race isn't far
>>> behind.
>>
>> That would have been an interesting story idea to have followed up on,
>> but I think they've dropped it. The E-Gene might explain why the High
>> Evolutionary "evolves" animals instead of people.
>
> The reason I thought the E-Gene could be important is because it would
> force humanity to search for a cure. Perhaps combining research (x-gene
> and e-gene) could yield helpful results for both.

Yes that would have been interesting. Imagine if some gene required for
human reproduction just spontaneously vanished from the human genome the
way the x-gene vanished from mutants... And then there were no new humans
being born. That would make the humans in 616 feel some pressure to solve
the case of the disappearing genes.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

CleV <clJUNKv1.TakeThisOut@balcab.ch> wrote in
news:ne7tc35ls2nrg2s03b9cc59o4m6es2e0ol@4ax.com:

> On 23 Aug 2007 23:52:51 GMT, Dan McEwen <ferroSPAMboy.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>wanyikuli@gmail.com wrote in
>>news:1187904889.321931.263750@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> http://tinyurl.com/yo2ow3
>>
>>How'd I manage to miss that one? It must have been just when I was
>>returning to comics (with NXM 114) and hadn't yet gotten back to
>>Usenet.
>
> Wow - I'm on that thread too! Whatever happened to all those people
> anyway? Especially my alter ego Brian Doyle whose views often seemed
> to mirror mine ...

Brian was a Cypher fan, I think.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

mimf <mimf.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in
news:pan.2007.08.24.15.14.20.179687@nospam.com:

> On Fri, 24 Aug 2007 03:40:51 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>
>> mimf <mimf.RemoveThis@nospam.com> wrote in
>> news:pan.2007.08.24.02.45.08.987237@nospam.com:
>>
>>> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:09:24 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:

>> Magneto explains that he built the Feng Tu using allies he had in
>> China.
>> If he had Chinese contacts he almost certainly had contacts all over
>> the world.
>
> I think he'd have had to have acquired them through Sublime/Kick
> taking them over then. I don't think there are that many mutants in
> China, let alone any who'd follow his orders the way the Acolytes did.

You think there's not many mutants in a place with a population of 2
billion but that a place with a mere 8 million (NYC) is overloaded with
them?
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!? 

mimf <mimf.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in
news:pan.2007.08.24.15.48.59.297043@nospam.com:

> On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:12:29 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>
>> mimf <mimf.DeleteThis@nospam.com> wrote in
>> news:pan.2007.08.23.14.18.17.710448@nospam.com:
>>
>>> On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:26:11 +0000, Dan McEwen wrote:
>>
>>>> Having just gone through Morrison's run the other day, it becomes
>>>> clear that Kick - which is actually Sublime - was exerting a lot
>>>> more influence on users than it otherwise seemed. Sublim affected
>>>> the U-Men, Kick, Cassandra Nova, Esme of the Cuckoos, Kid Omega,
>>>> and Magneto. The entire run centered around how Sublime made
>>>> everything snowball.
>>>
>>> Morrison's Magneto still did what he did though. If you kill someone
>>> while you're high, you're still responsible and people remember you
>>> for it. They think there's some part of you that would want to do
>>> that, even when not high.
>>
>> There's some indication that Sublime was guiding everything. Note
>> that in Here Comes Tomorrow that Beast had been completely taken over
>> by Sublime because he took Kick. See where I'm going with this?
>
> Yes. Especially after reading Billy's post. I think my biggest problem
> is the lack of explanation of how and why he'd take Kick in the first
> place.

They do explain it. Beast wasn't getting anywhere with his attempts to
solve the e-gene problem. He thought Kick would give him a boost.

> Where would he get it?

The same place people get any drug? Jumbo Carnation - a celebrity
fashion designed - didn't seem to have trouble finding it.

Why would he use it? How long would he
> have used it before it got control of him and he came up with this
> weird plan to disguise himself as Xorn and attack New York? Emma Frost
> said she sampled Kick once, and there weren't any apparant ill term
> effects in her.

It seems to be a choice on Sublime's part as to who is influenced. Why
bother when Emma when Magneto could do so much more damage? Considering
the outcome that almost happened because of it (Here Comes Tomorrow), it
wasn't necessary.

>> The reason I thought the E-Gene could be important is because it
>> would force humanity to search for a cure. Perhaps combining
>> research (x-gene and e-gene) could yield helpful results for both.
>
> Yes that would have been interesting. Imagine if some gene required
> for human reproduction just spontaneously vanished from the human
> genome the way the x-gene vanished from mutants... And then there were
> no new humans being born. That would make the humans in 616 feel some
> pressure to solve the case of the disappearing genes.

The e-gene was always a few generations away. In comic book time, we
would never see that happen.
 >> Stay informed about: Former X-Men Reader. Magneto?!? AOA??!?