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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 713
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 1:34 am
Post subject: Organ Banks
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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External
Since: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:18 am
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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On Dec 29, 1:34 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....TakeThisOut@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> What do you think of the idea in Larry Niven's Known Space universe of
> removing the organs of executed criminals for the organ banks?
It is said that the "red" Chinese sometimes do this already.
And I'd assume they prefer political opponents/dissidents to
criminals proper.
Criminals proper are often from poorer social classes that
are more likely to be infected with both known diseases
and emerging diseases. Known diseases would include
HIV, Hep C and B and emerging diseases
might include prion diseases, Chagas or perhaps
some new retrovirus not in the commonly tested for diseases.
The proposal reminds me of an SF story were
the condemned man is waiting to be taken apart for
his organs due to his crime of crossing the street without
the go ahead signal.
In short, I say thumbs down to this idea. |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 713
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 2:19 am
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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trigonometry1972.TakeThisOut@gmail.com wrote:
> On Dec 29, 1:34 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....TakeThisOut@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > What do you think of the idea in Larry Niven's Known Space universe of
> > removing the organs of executed criminals for the organ banks?
>
> It is said that the "red" Chinese sometimes do this already.
> And I'd assume they prefer political opponents/dissidents to
> criminals proper.
>
> Criminals proper are often from poorer social classes that
> are more likely to be infected with both known diseases
> and emerging diseases. Known diseases would include
> HIV, Hep C and B and emerging diseases
> might include prion diseases, Chagas or perhaps
> some new retrovirus not in the commonly tested for diseases.
>
> The proposal reminds me of an SF story were
> the condemned man is waiting to be taken apart for
> his organs due to his crime of crossing the street without
> the go ahead signal.
The Larry Niven story in question had the man awaiting execution for running
red lights and speeding. That's where I got the idea! >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 2
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 5:40 am
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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Tim Bruening wrote:
> trigonometry1972 DeleteThis @gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Dec 29, 1:34 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru... DeleteThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > > What do you think of the idea in Larry Niven's Known Space universe of
> > > removing the organs of executed criminals for the organ banks?
> >
> > It is said that the "red" Chinese sometimes do this already.
> > And I'd assume they prefer political opponents/dissidents to
> > criminals proper.
> >
> > Criminals proper are often from poorer social classes that
> > are more likely to be infected with both known diseases
> > and emerging diseases. Known diseases would include
> > HIV, Hep C and B and emerging diseases
> > might include prion diseases, Chagas or perhaps
> > some new retrovirus not in the commonly tested for diseases.
> >
> > The proposal reminds me of an SF story were
> > the condemned man is waiting to be taken apart for
> > his organs due to his crime of crossing the street without
> > the go ahead signal.
>
> The Larry Niven story in question had the man awaiting execution for running
> red lights and speeding. That's where I got the idea!
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It has been decades since I read the story.
So I can't be sure it is the same story.
Wow, you post frequently to the Usenet.
I just Googled your posting history.
I don't have much time for science fiction as there
is too much science to read. >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Oct 03, 2004
Posts: 31
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 6:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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"Vincent D. DeSimone" <desimone8.RemoveThis@comcast.net> writes:
>In the Known Space TL, those were the kinds of crimes that were required to
>warrant a trip to the Organ Banks. Only much later when spare parts became
>scarce did the more mundane crimes warrant a trip to the banks.
Sorta like the phone taps under Patriot Act, ehh? First they were ONLY
for nasty terrorists [and of course, anyone alleged to have talked to
same, like Brandon Mayfield...]. Then we moved to marijuana smokers....
Soon, we'll sweep up all the No Turn on Red & jaywalker types...
Guess Larry Niven *could* see what was coming... No wonder reading
good SF get scarier every day.
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz.RemoveThis@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433 >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Jul 09, 2003
Posts: 171
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:42 pm
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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David Lesher wrote:
> Sorta like the phone taps under Patriot Act, ehh? First they were ONLY
> for nasty terrorists [and of course, anyone alleged to have talked to
> same, like Brandon Mayfield...]. Then we moved to marijuana smokers....
Uh, and when exactly did that happen? Want to try to back up such a
laughable claim?
> Soon, we'll sweep up all the No Turn on Red & jaywalker types...
You do realize that a slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy, right?
--
Erik Max Francis && max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
Chance favors the trained mind.
-- Louis Pasteur >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Aug 18, 2004
Posts: 24
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 11:50 pm
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:42:05 -0800, Erik Max Francis <max.TakeThisOut@alcyone.com>
wrote:
>David Lesher wrote:
>
>> Sorta like the phone taps under Patriot Act, ehh? First they were ONLY
>> for nasty terrorists [and of course, anyone alleged to have talked to
>> same, like Brandon Mayfield...]. Then we moved to marijuana smokers....
>
>Uh, and when exactly did that happen? Want to try to back up such a
>laughable claim?
>
>> Soon, we'll sweep up all the No Turn on Red & jaywalker types...
>
>You do realize that a slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy, right?
Yeah, you let people get away with the Slippery Slope, and the next
thing you know you've got ad hominems all over the place.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.] >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 65
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Bill Snyder wrote:
> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:42:05 -0800, Erik Max Francis
> <max DeleteThis @alcyone.com>
> wrote:
>
>> David Lesher wrote:
>>
>>> Sorta like the phone taps under Patriot Act, ehh? First they were
>>> ONLY for nasty terrorists [and of course, anyone alleged to have
>>> talked to same, like Brandon Mayfield...]. Then we moved to
>>> marijuana smokers....
>>
>> Uh, and when exactly did that happen? Want to try to back up such
>> a
>> laughable claim?
>>
>>> Soon, we'll sweep up all the No Turn on Red & jaywalker types...
>>
>> You do realize that a slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy,
>> right?
>
> Yeah, you let people get away with the Slippery Slope, and the next
> thing you know you've got ad hominems all over the place.
And then they'll start citing silly Larry Niven stories as prophecies. >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Aug 18, 2004
Posts: 24
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 8:39 am
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:21:44 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscottschilling RemoveThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>Bill Snyder wrote:
>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:42:05 -0800, Erik Max Francis
>> <max RemoveThis @alcyone.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> David Lesher wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorta like the phone taps under Patriot Act, ehh? First they were
>>>> ONLY for nasty terrorists [and of course, anyone alleged to have
>>>> talked to same, like Brandon Mayfield...]. Then we moved to
>>>> marijuana smokers....
>>>
>>> Uh, and when exactly did that happen? Want to try to back up such
>>> a
>>> laughable claim?
>>>
>>>> Soon, we'll sweep up all the No Turn on Red & jaywalker types...
>>>
>>> You do realize that a slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy,
>>> right?
>>
>> Yeah, you let people get away with the Slippery Slope, and the next
>> thing you know you've got ad hominems all over the place.
>
>And then they'll start citing silly Larry Niven stories as prophecies.
And generalizing from one example, too, I'll bet.
--
Bill Snyder [This space unintentionally left blank.] >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Dec 29, 2007
Posts: 17
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:50 am
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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On Dec 29, 2:54 pm, David Lesher <wb8....DeleteThis@panix.com> wrote:
> "Vincent D. DeSimone" <desimo....DeleteThis@comcast.net> writes:
>
> >In the Known Space TL, those were the kinds of crimes that were required to
> >warrant a trip to the Organ Banks. Only much later when spare parts became
> >scarce did the more mundane crimes warrant a trip to the banks.
>
> Sorta like the phone taps under Patriot Act, ehh? First they were ONLY
> for nasty terrorists [and of course, anyone alleged to have talked to
> same, like Brandon Mayfield...]. Then we moved to marijuana smokers....
>
It seems to me the feds tap phones and read phone logs
when they feel the need, and reasons are ex post facto. >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 65
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 3:59 pm
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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Bill Snyder wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 07:21:44 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
> <mscottschilling DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Bill Snyder wrote:
>>> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007 19:42:05 -0800, Erik Max Francis
>>> <max DeleteThis @alcyone.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> David Lesher wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Sorta like the phone taps under Patriot Act, ehh? First they
>>>>> were
>>>>> ONLY for nasty terrorists [and of course, anyone alleged to have
>>>>> talked to same, like Brandon Mayfield...]. Then we moved to
>>>>> marijuana smokers....
>>>>
>>>> Uh, and when exactly did that happen? Want to try to back up
>>>> such
>>>> a
>>>> laughable claim?
>>>>
>>>>> Soon, we'll sweep up all the No Turn on Red & jaywalker types...
>>>>
>>>> You do realize that a slippery slope argument is a logical
>>>> fallacy,
>>>> right?
>>>
>>> Yeah, you let people get away with the Slippery Slope, and the
>>> next
>>> thing you know you've got ad hominems all over the place.
>>
>> And then they'll start citing silly Larry Niven stories as
>> prophecies.
>
> And generalizing from one example, too, I'll bet.
Everyone does that. >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Dec 27, 2005
Posts: 37
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 7:54 pm
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Sun, 30 Dec 2007 18:47:44 GMT, "Mike Schilling"
<mscottschilling.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> And generalizing from one example, too, I'll bet.
>
>Everyone does that.
At least I do. >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Jun 19, 2007
Posts: 9
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Tim Bruening wrote:
> What do you think of the idea in Larry Niven's Known Space universe of
> removing the organs of executed criminals for the organ banks?
The matching problem is so considerable, and keeping separated organs
alive until they can be inserted in someone is so difficult, that at the
present it is completely impractical. Thus I do not believe that anyone
is stealing and selling organs from cadavers in hospitals, or that some
other country is routinely harvesting organs for future transplant.
--
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us
with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use.
-- Galileo Galilei >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Dec 06, 2003
Posts: 713
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:25 pm
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Jon Schild wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > What do you think of the idea in Larry Niven's Known Space universe of
> > removing the organs of executed criminals for the organ banks?
>
> The matching problem is so considerable, and keeping separated organs
> alive until they can be inserted in someone is so difficult, that at the
> present it is completely impractical. Thus I do not believe that anyone
> is stealing and selling organs from cadavers in hospitals, or that some
> other country is routinely harvesting organs for future transplant.
All we need is time for medical scientists to solve the above problems. >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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External
Since: Feb 07, 2005
Posts: 5
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:30 pm
Post subject: Re: Organ Banks [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>sf>written, others (more info?)
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On Dec 31, 7:25 pm, Jon Schild <j....RemoveThis@xmission.com> wrote:
> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > What do you think of the idea in Larry Niven's Known Space universe of
> > removing the organs of executed criminals for the organ banks?
>
> The matching problem is so considerable, and keeping separated organs
> alive until they can be inserted in someone is so difficult, that at the
> present it is completely impractical. Thus I do not believe that anyone
> is stealing and selling organs from cadavers in hospitals, or that some
> other country is routinely harvesting organs for future transplant.
If you assume (as Niven chose to) that these problems would all be
solved by some date in the future (iirc Niven set the earliest of
these stories about 200 years in the future) then a real social and
ethical issue would exist. Niven's explorations of the issue are at
least interesting, IMO. The premise probably looked more likely circa
1970 than it does now. Consider the steady progress in transpalts and
related tech from the first effective blood transfusions around
1900-1910 to the first heart transplants in the 1960s,
-DES >> Stay informed about: Organ Banks |
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