Perceiving evil

In article
<13a9343b-47bd-4d85-9db9-8d22f8ffb92f.DeleteThis@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
"darylgene@aol.com" <darylgene.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:

> OK, here's a topic.
> Lewis presented three very different pictures of evil (Evil?) in the
> Space Trilogy, from the almost accidental, road to Hell being paved
> with good intentions type, to active, conscious, intentional evil. It
> seems that, nowadays, there is a segment of the population that is
> very adverse to admitting that evil and/or evil people exist, exulting
> tolerance to the prime virtue, sympathizing with people that merit no
> sympathy. I have my own ideas as to why this is so, but wonder if
> anyone else shares my concern, and if so, what they think causes this
> sort of (what I would consider) moral blindness.
>
Recall the fundamental asymmetry between "good" and "evil" as abstract
ideas. "Evil" is parasitical upon "good" and not vice versa. An evil
thing is a good thing marred. This insight goes back to Plato, and has
been Christianized by Augustine, Aquinas, and Lewis - and probably by
others. I conjecture that it is also found in other philosophical and
religious traditions. So "evil" really is less real than "good," and
some of the people to whom you refer are perceiving this.

--
Christopher J. Henrich
chenrich.DeleteThis@monmouth.com
htp://www.mathinteract.com
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:14:44 -0800 (PST), "darylgene@aol.com"
<darylgene RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote:

> OK, here's a topic.
>Lewis presented three very different pictures of evil (Evil?) in the
>Space Trilogy, from the almost accidental, road to Hell being paved
>with good intentions type, to active, conscious, intentional evil. It
>seems that, nowadays, there is a segment of the population that is
>very adverse to admitting that evil and/or evil people exist, exulting
>tolerance to the prime virtue, sympathizing with people that merit no
>sympathy. I have my own ideas as to why this is so, but wonder if
>anyone else shares my concern, and if so, what they think causes this
>sort of (what I would consider) moral blindness.

Can you give examples of what you have in mind -- where does Lewis present
these three types in the space trilogy?


--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

On Feb 13, 6:49 pm, Steve Hayes <hayesm... DeleteThis @hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:14:44 -0800 (PST), "darylg...@aol.com"
>
> <darylg... DeleteThis @aol.com> wrote:
> > OK, here's a topic.
> >Lewis presented three very different pictures of evil (Evil?) in the
> >Space Trilogy, from the almost accidental, road to Hell being paved
> >with good intentions type, to active, conscious, intentional evil. It
> >seems that, nowadays, there is a segment of the population that is
> >very adverse to admitting that evil and/or evil people exist, exulting
> >tolerance to the prime virtue, sympathizing with people that merit no
> >sympathy. I have my own ideas as to why this is so, but wonder if
> >anyone else shares my concern, and if so, what they think causes this
> >sort of (what I would consider) moral blindness.
>
> Can you give examples of what you have in mind -- where does Lewis present
> these three types in the space trilogy?
>
> --
> Steve Hayes
> Web:http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
>      http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
>      http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius

In "Hideous Strength" I would think that the characters would have
only misguided intentions, for the most part, in Perelandra there is
no doubt that the Evil is intentional.

What brought the situation to mind was hearing some people's reaction
to the death of Imad Mughniyah.
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

On Feb 13, 7:10 pm, Christopher Henrich <chenr....TakeThisOut@monmouth.com> wrote:
> In article
> <13a9343b-47bd-4d85-9db9-8d22f8ffb....TakeThisOut@p69g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>,
>
>  "darylg...@aol.com" <darylg....TakeThisOut@aol.com> wrote:
> >  OK, here's a topic.
> > Lewis presented three very different pictures of evil (Evil?) in the
> > Space Trilogy, from the almost accidental, road to Hell being paved
> > with good intentions type, to active, conscious, intentional evil. It
> > seems that, nowadays, there is a segment of the population that is
> > very adverse to admitting that evil and/or evil people exist, exulting
> > tolerance to the prime virtue, sympathizing with people that merit no
> > sympathy. I have my own ideas as to why this is so, but wonder if
> > anyone else shares my concern, and if so, what they think causes this
> > sort of (what I would consider) moral blindness.
>
> Recall the fundamental asymmetry between "good" and "evil" as abstract
> ideas. "Evil" is parasitical upon "good" and not vice versa.  An evil
> thing is a good thing marred. This insight goes back to Plato, and has
> been Christianized by Augustine, Aquinas, and Lewis - and probably by
> others. I conjecture that it is also found in  other philosophical and
> religious traditions. So "evil" really is less real than "good," and
> some of the people to whom you refer are perceiving this.
>
> --
> Christopher J. Henrich
> chenr....TakeThisOut@monmouth.com
> htp://www.mathinteract.com

Yet it is a good thing marred by choice, is it not?? Which (good or
evil) aspect benefits when evil goes unrecognised? Isn't it important
to realize, and not condone, the evil in ourselves and in the world,
so that the distinctions are not blurred?
Daryl
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

On Feb 15, 7:07 am, "AJA" <ahnem....DeleteThis@optonline.net> wrote:
> >>What brought the situation to mind was hearing some people's reaction
> >>to the death of Imad Mughniyah.
>
> > Who's that, and what were the reactions?
>
> No small amount of joy in many parts of the world where this super-terrorist
> was responsible for the planning and direction of attacks and execution of
> thousands of people.  He is greatly mourned and given the status now of
> martyr where his efforts are sympathized with.  One would have liked to
> bring him to trial instead of blowing him up.
>
> AJA

And not just attacks and executions, brutal torture as well. Not the
Abu Ghraib type either, nor sensory deprivation. And, yes, it should
sober us to think some regard him as a hero. What brought this topic
to mind was a caller to an American talk radio show lamenting the fact
that someone had assinated him, since he was, after all, another human
being.

Daryl
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

On Thu, 14 Feb 2008 11:59:51 -0800 (PST), "darylgene@aol.com"
<darylgene.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:

>On Feb 13, 6:49 pm, Steve Hayes <hayesm....DeleteThis@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 16:14:44 -0800 (PST), "darylg...@aol.com"
>>
>> <darylg....DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote:
>> > OK, here's a topic.
>> >Lewis presented three very different pictures of evil (Evil?) in the
>> >Space Trilogy, from the almost accidental, road to Hell being paved
>> >with good intentions type, to active, conscious, intentional evil. It
>> >seems that, nowadays, there is a segment of the population that is
>> >very adverse to admitting that evil and/or evil people exist, exulting
>> >tolerance to the prime virtue, sympathizing with people that merit no
>> >sympathy. I have my own ideas as to why this is so, but wonder if
>> >anyone else shares my concern, and if so, what they think causes this
>> >sort of (what I would consider) moral blindness.
>>
>> Can you give examples of what you have in mind -- where does Lewis present
>> these three types in the space trilogy?

> In "Hideous Strength" I would think that the characters would have
>only misguided intentions, for the most part, in Perelandra there is
>no doubt that the Evil is intentional.

I'd say that "That hideous strength" is a mixed bag, some have evil
intentions, others (like Mark Studdock) allow themselves to be sucked in my
misguided ambition. But that's how we all get sucked in, to start with.

>What brought the situation to mind was hearing some people's reaction
>to the death of Imad Mughniyah.

Who's that, and what were the reactions?



--
Steve Hayes
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/litmain.htm
http://www.librarything.com/catalog/hayesstw
http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/Methodius
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

>
>>What brought the situation to mind was hearing some people's reaction
>>to the death of Imad Mughniyah.
>
> Who's that, and what were the reactions?

No small amount of joy in many parts of the world where this super-terrorist
was responsible for the planning and direction of attacks and execution of
thousands of people. He is greatly mourned and given the status now of
martyr where his efforts are sympathized with. One would have liked to
bring him to trial instead of blowing him up.

AJA
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

<darylgene.DeleteThis@aol.com> wrote in message news:2df4cdb2-f1eb-4268-bd4f-
And not just attacks and executions, brutal torture as well. Not the
Abu Ghraib type either, nor sensory deprivation. And, yes, it should
sober us to think some regard him as a hero. What brought this topic
to mind was a caller to an American talk radio show lamenting the fact
that someone had assinated him, since he was, after all, another human
being.

You know, things Lewis wrote about war and the killing that goes on in
connection with war. It may be a very good thing that people decry killing
for whatever the reason- even a persons possessed with evil intentions such
as Mughniyah. One never takes power of life and death lightly, but with
great fear and trembling. May this person's response be a sign of hope, do
you think?
The subject is on my mind this Lenten season. The story is that humanity
chose to have the knowledge of good and evil. Was it a blessing, or a
curse? A person recently pointed out to me that along with that knowledge
there is much to learn from everyone on earth and every situation we are
presented with- good or bad. If only to cry, Lord, Lord!
My emotions want all those terrorist murderers- all of them- dead. Even my
reason tells me the world is certainly better off without that murderer
among us. My heart wonders about the how's and why's and what's that made
him a murderer. A Lebanese vegetable farmer's son? And here, a post
graduate student shooting to death 5 people in an Illinois college, a
phychologist hacked to death in her office? On and on and on.
What does one do with all of it?

Blessings,
Ann
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

AJA <ahnemann RemoveThis @optonline.net> observed
>
><darylgene RemoveThis @aol.com> wrote in message news:2df4cdb2-f1eb-4268-bd4f-
>And not just attacks and executions, brutal torture as well. Not the
>Abu Ghraib type either, nor sensory deprivation. And, yes, it should
>sober us to think some regard him as a hero. What brought this topic
>to mind was a caller to an American talk radio show lamenting the fact
>that someone had assinated him, since he was, after all, another human
>being.
>
>You know, things Lewis wrote about war and the killing that goes on in
>connection with war. It may be a very good thing that people decry
>killing for whatever the reason- even a persons possessed with evil
>intentions such as Mughniyah. One never takes power of life and death
>lightly, but with great fear and trembling. May this person's response
>be a sign of hope, do you think?
>The subject is on my mind this Lenten season. The story is that
>humanity chose to have the knowledge of good and evil. Was it a
>blessing, or a curse? A person recently pointed out to me that along
>with that knowledge there is much to learn from everyone on earth and
>every situation we are presented with- good or bad. If only to cry,
>Lord, Lord!
>My emotions want all those terrorist murderers- all of them- dead.
>Even my reason tells me the world is certainly better off without that
>murderer among us. My heart wonders about the how's and why's and
>what's that made him a murderer. A Lebanese vegetable farmer's son?
>And here, a post graduate student shooting to death 5 people in an
>Illinois college, a phychologist hacked to death in her office? On and
>on and on.
>What does one do with all of it?

"The story is not as simple as that," said the old woman, "so many
things happened after the eating of the apple...
.... you have never tasted anything that is quite free of it!"

I think that the notion of evil requires much more clarification than a
million people tut-tutting.

It's easy to think about evil variously as:-
1. The absence of good
2. The desire to control
3. The presence of pain & suffering & death
4. The ugly
and much much more.

It #3 in my list that the popular press majors on; one high school
shooting is worse than another because more people are killed. Now
that's sin in a big way, but I don't think it's necessarily 'evil'. When
combined with #4. "hunchback rapes girl", it's seen as being even worse
because our aestheic sense is 'offended'.

I think that evil is the manipulation of people and circumstances to
achieve some control at the expense of others.

It's not measured by lives lost (although that may come into it), it's
as much by suffering imposed, we see it in the corporate world when some
takeover is ruthlessly achieved and people thrown out of their jobs,
whole factories closed down, because it will make a few people a little
richer. In the boardroom, it may just be the bullying of a powerful
magnate to get his/her own way and a few people who decide it's easier
to go along with it rather than make a stand on *this* issue.

It's evil when our neighbour is a nuisance and we make things difficult
for them - we may not call it revenge, but that's what it is.

In short, evil is the lack of *love* - not the lack of *good*.

Can't help thinking this is covered in Screwtape somewhere, but nothing
comes to mind - except the bit about S. being pleased because bombs are
killing people, to which the response is - "don't be silly, fear makes
people think of the enemy!"

Mike

[The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
--
Michael J Davis
<><
Some newsgroup contributors appear to have confused
the meaning of "discussion" with "digression".
<><
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

"Michael J Davis" <?.?@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:oaQX79CrCduHFwCw@trustsof.demon.co.uk.invalid...
> In short, evil is the lack of *love* - not the lack of *good*.

That's getting more to the heart of the matter.

Blessings,
AJA
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil 

On Feb 18, 6:20 pm, "AJA" <ahnem....DeleteThis@optonline.net> wrote:
> "Michael J Davis" <?...@trustsof.demon.co.uk> wrote in messagenews:oaQX79CrCduHFwCw@trustsof.demon.co.uk.invalid...
>
> > In short, evil is the lack of *love* - not the lack of *good*.
>
> That's getting more to the heart of the matter.
>
> Blessings,
> AJA

That seems very perceptive, God is described as "good," but defined as
"Love." Cain and Able both sacrificed as commanded, yet only Able's
sacrifice was accepted, the only reason I can imagine was that one was
done in love and gratitude and the other was loveless.
Since we lack the knowledge of the workings of eternity, it seems to
me the only standard we have for judging God as good, as proclaimed by
scripture, is to say He acts from love, and from love alone.

Re: Huan the hound

-- It is a terrible decline when someone starts holding up evil as
good, and that's what our
BSF lecturer said was meant by blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. I
guess you've totally subdued His voice in your head when you turn to
praising evil and hating good. Perhaps Herod followed that path and
so
Jesus could not say anything useful when they met. --

I agree, in the particular instance where Jesus condemned the
bashphemy against the Holy Spirit it was even worse, holding up good
as evil!
 >> Stay informed about: Perceiving evil