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On Tue, 29 Jul 2008 16:19:26 -0400, an orbiting mind-control laser
made "Sorceror" <sorceror-1.DeleteThis@comcast.net> write:

>the final book


Uh, oh...

I foresee either great rejoicing or great anger in your future.


-JPB
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"Sorceror" <sorceror-1 DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote in message
news:vPKdnd0f64pXLRLVnZ2dnUVZ_g2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> As far as i'm aware - the "safehold" Renessaince part - is only a trilogy
> which he had made mention of somewhere (which i naturally cannot find at
> the moment) - and that there would be more to come (or at least there
> better be) LOL
>
>

If that was ever the case, I think his plans have changed.

--

Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile), AIM id DrakeBookLover
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
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In article <m5SdnQHAPrSm5hLVnZ2dnUVZ_o_inZ2d DeleteThis @comcast.com>,
Sorceror <sorceror-1 DeleteThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>And i'm already 1/3 of the way through the book - it's tough reading it
>slowly and making sure i'm getting the full thing and not just blowing
>through it (especially since i have another 6+ months to go before the final
>book comes out).

Just finished reading it today. Careful not to let slip spoilers, I am
disappointed how stupid the gang of four, as I call them, are. I mean
they are nothing compared to Havenites in Harrington verse, shallow
characters, too stupid to have become natural leaders. It doesn't make
sense. People this stupid don't become leaders.

The relationship between the gang of four and the Temple
Knights is not developed. In fact the Temple Knights organization
is not developed either. It will be nice for a change to see the
bad guys win rounds, to break the monotony if for nothing else,
otherwise it will be a boring one sided sweep for the entire series.

In the Harrington verse, the bad guys evolve their tech base which
creates some balance. The technology imbalance in the safehold verse
should not continue otherwise there is no story to tell. There could be
a counterpoint to Merlin, like a technological cache waiting to be
tapped for self defense.

So overall, I found book 2 to be too formulaic. I am looking forward
to the remaining installments and hoping that the gang of four will
evolve some brains in the next six months.

bassem
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In article <michelle-53C668.20013401082008.DeleteThis@news.east.cox.net>,
Michelle Steiner <michelle.DeleteThis@michelle.org> wrote:

>Keep in mind that all this is just the preamble to the real war between
>humanity and the Gbaba; I think that there will be plenty of back and
>forth in that war.

I accept this premise but, humanity at the apex of its technological
prowess failed to stop the Gbaba. What are middle-age-technology
people to do? To stand up to the Gbaba, Safehold humans must exceed
the tech base of Earth humans. Wooden sea ship battles, while exciting
read, aren't going to get us there.

An alternate flow might be for Merlin to start a new human colony in
Armageddon Reef. This colony will have a single purpose: technology
research and advancement of science. The Reef humans would receive
full knowledge disclosure, machine assisted learning, and devote 100%
of their time to the advancement of science. Merlin's gizmos will take
care of protection however the Reef is safe in principle because nobody
dares to approach it anyway.

With Reef colony in hyper development mode, the political machination
of Safehold can progress at its own pace. If the Gbaba is the ultimate
objective then the present development path of the story isn't taking us
there on the fastest route. Time is of the essence because in principle
the Gbaba could discover the Safehold hideout and then the humans with
wooden ships and muskets would be totally unprepared.

bassem
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BM wrote:
> I accept this premise but, humanity at the apex of its technological
> prowess failed to stop the Gbaba.

Don't forget pure numbers. Humans got beaten with many advanced planets
to draw from. Now, one primitive and under populated planet is going to
kick their butts?

Well, maybe "Doc" Smith could come up with something.
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On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 16:25:57 +0000 (UTC), an orbiting mind-control
laser made m-e-d-a-w-a-r RemoveThis @panix.com (BM) write:

>An alternate flow might be for Merlin to start a new human colony in
>Armageddon Reef. This colony will have a single purpose: technology
>research and advancement of science. The Reef humans would receive
>full knowledge disclosure, machine assisted learning, and devote 100%
>of their time to the advancement of science. Merlin's gizmos will take
>care of protection however the Reef is safe in principle because nobody
>dares to approach it anyway.

Once they develop a significant emissions signature, the Reef once
again becomes ground zero of a significant visit from the orbital
bombardment system.

The bombardment system must be dealt with before any significant
development can proceed.


Then you have to worry about word of the Reef Colony getting out.
The Church would see it as simply the rebirth of Shan Wie's minions in
the region where she was once smited by god.

They'd be evil followers of Shan Wei dabbling in techniques
proscribed by God Himself and the Church would do its best to crush
the colony once word got out.

Merlin may be limited in how much advanced tech he could apply to
a significant threat to the enclave if he hadn't already neutralized
the bombardment system first. He wouldn't want his own defensive
actions to trigger the re-destruction of the Reef.

-JPB
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In article <73sb949jugnsrhgjqt5pjunh36elr0ohr0.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
Dahak <Dahak_II.DeleteThis@theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:

> Once they develop a significant emissions signature, the Reef once
>again becomes ground zero of a significant visit from the orbital
>bombardment system.

Research could be conducted underground or in caves. One of the aims of
the research would be to take down the orbital platforms. For a credible
R&D to pick up speed, the scientists must be completely divorced from the
man-made church and must have access to full knowledge.

> The bombardment system must be dealt with before any significant
>development can proceed.

Chicken and egg.. as long as the R&D avoids letting out emissions, it's
safe.

> Then you have to worry about word of the Reef Colony getting out.

Could be a one way ticket. People who go in a) are committed to total
secrecy and b) they disappear completely. An accident could be arranged
to make it seem like they died. Only Merlin will be allowed to go out
since his home base is in the Reef and he has been able to fly in and
out undetected.

>The Church would see it as simply the rebirth of Shan Wie's minions in
>the region where she was once smited by god.

They already got Charis as Shan Wie's minions as of end of book 1, unable
to deal with it.

> They'd be evil followers of Shan Wei dabbling in techniques
>proscribed by God Himself and the Church would do its best to crush
>the colony once word got out.

Who, Charis?

> Merlin may be limited in how much advanced tech he could apply to
>a significant threat to the enclave if he hadn't already neutralized
>the bombardment system first. He wouldn't want his own defensive
>actions to trigger the re-destruction of the Reef.

Ground to space R&D weaponry is needed. Wouldn't be nice for the good guys
to create an emission disturbance in bad lands and let the bombardment wipe
out the bad guys while allowing the good guys to study the bombardment
pattern? It's a lot cleaner than ship-to-ship warfare. The platforms can
be used as a plot device to advance the Safehold-bound part of the story to
a faster resolution, rather than delay the resolution.

In the end, it goes without saying that any tech that is expected to stand
up to the Gbaba must be able to stand up to the bombardment platforms.
Merlin's flyer is able to fly undetected. So use the flyer technology
to travel to orbit, board the bombard platforms and disable them.

bassem
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On Sun, 3 Aug 2008 18:54:35 -0400, an orbiting mind-control laser made
"Fred Burton" <fburton.RemoveThis@biteme2.com> write:

>Of course, Merlin/Nimue, being what he is, would seem to have the ability
>to remain as an ongoing character across the centuries in this series,
>even if he may have to take on new appearances from time to time.
>The leaders of Charis may be able to deal with the knowledge that
>Merlin is effectively immortal, but it may raise a LOT of questions
>among any enemies to have an apparantly unaging "seijin" around.
>It might be easier for Merlin to simply disappear and have another
>persona re-appear with the full knowledge of the Charisian leadership,
>but otherwise a secret to everyone else.

Having Merlin disappear & reappear as 'someone else' is pretty
much what I've been expecting.


-JPB
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On Mon, 4 Aug 2008 00:13:33 +0000 (UTC), an orbiting mind-control
laser made m-e-d-a-w-a-r RemoveThis @panix.com (BM) write:

>Research could be conducted underground or in caves. One of the aims of
>the research would be to take down the orbital platforms. For a credible
>R&D to pick up speed, the scientists must be completely divorced from the
>man-made church and must have access to full knowledge.

I wouldn't expect that a credible indigenous threat to the
bombardment system could be developed without a noticeable
above-ground infrastructure capable of being easily detected.

>> The bombardment system must be dealt with before any significant
>>development can proceed.
>
>Chicken and egg.. as long as the R&D avoids letting out emissions, it's
>safe.

Discrete R&D perhaps, but not the creation of a developed
infrastructure capable of threatening an orbital system.

>> Then you have to worry about word of the Reef Colony getting out.
>
>Could be a one way ticket. People who go in a) are committed to total
>secrecy and b) they disappear completely. An accident could be arranged
>to make it seem like they died. Only Merlin will be allowed to go out
>since his home base is in the Reef and he has been able to fly in and
>out undetected.

Merlin does not have any base in the Reef.

And if there was a significant presence on the Reef, rumors would
eventually get out.

>>The Church would see it as simply the rebirth of Shan Wie's minions in
>>the region where she was once smited by god.
>
>They already got Charis as Shan Wie's minions as of end of book 1, unable
>to deal with it.

But they're mobilizing to deal with it. They know of the threat.

>> They'd be evil followers of Shan Wei dabbling in techniques
>>proscribed by God Himself and the Church would do its best to crush
>>the colony once word got out.
>
>Who, Charis?

No. The putative Reef colony.

>Ground to space R&D weaponry is needed. Wouldn't be nice for the good guys
>to create an emission disturbance in bad lands and let the bombardment wipe
>out the bad guys while allowing the good guys to study the bombardment
>pattern? It's a lot cleaner than ship-to-ship warfare. The platforms can
>be used as a plot device to advance the Safehold-bound part of the story to
>a faster resolution, rather than delay the resolution.

I think you've lost me, there.

Are you suggesting that detectable activity on the Reef drawing a
kinetic strike is somehow going to get the bad guys somewhere else?

As an aside: who cares about studying the bombardment pattern -
especially after it's wiped out your budding colony?

Merlin already did such an analysis.

About the only way I can currently see disarming the system would
be to offer it repeated targets to stamp flat, exhausting its cells.
(Or, perhaps, using a long-range kinetic strike of their own in
orbit.)

>In the end, it goes without saying that any tech that is expected to stand
>up to the Gbaba must be able to stand up to the bombardment platforms.
>Merlin's flyer is able to fly undetected. So use the flyer technology
>to travel to orbit, board the bombard platforms and disable them.

You can't develop enough indigenous technical capability without
first dealing with the system.

Being able to fly the skimmer in atmosphere at medium mach numbers
or into low-orbital flights over the horizon is /not/ the same thing
as being able to fly into the defended engagement shell.

He's already tried to do that with a fully-stealthed SNARC and it
got plastered at range. I doubt the skimmer would do much - if any -
better.

No. There'll be no 'board the bombardment platforms' being done
without somehow infiltrating its command & control systems from the
ground first.

Merlin has no revealed active system that can strike the
bombardment platforms. The only things that I can imagine would be a
long-range kinetic strike of his own using inert projectiles in
intersecting counter-orbits (a scenario the designers must have
anticipated), infiltrating it's control systems remotely, or
alternatively, exhausting the system's offensive strike capacity.


-JPB
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"BM" <m-e-d-a-w-a-r.TakeThisOut@panix.com> wrote in message
news:g75hjd$ms$1@reader1.panix.com...
>
> In article <73sb949jugnsrhgjqt5pjunh36elr0ohr0.TakeThisOut@4ax.com>,
> Dahak <Dahak_II.TakeThisOut@theXOUTfifthimperium.com.invalid> wrote:
>
>> Once they develop a significant emissions signature, the Reef once
>>again becomes ground zero of a significant visit from the orbital
>>bombardment system.
>
> Research could be conducted underground or in caves. One of the aims of
> the research would be to take down the orbital platforms. For a credible
> R&D to pick up speed, the scientists must be completely divorced from the
> man-made church and must have access to full knowledge.
>
>> The bombardment system must be dealt with before any significant
>>development can proceed.
>
> Chicken and egg.. as long as the R&D avoids letting out emissions, it's
> safe.
>
>> Then you have to worry about word of the Reef Colony getting out.
>
> Could be a one way ticket. People who go in a) are committed to total
> secrecy and b) they disappear completely. An accident could be arranged
> to make it seem like they died. Only Merlin will be allowed to go out
> since his home base is in the Reef and he has been able to fly in and
> out undetected.

Merlin's base is under "Mount Olympus" in the Mountains of Light, which
are up north relatively near Zion (?).
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