How much did Sauron know?

Colin Davies wrote:
>
> I ask because if he could remember the Music, then his actions seem
> futile. He must have known that he could never win, and at the end of
> Arda he would be held to account by Illuvator.

That doesn't seem to have been obvious to Melkor. He must have
recognized his position as created being, yet Melkor clearly
thought he could successfully break away from the original music
and do his own thing. Those that followed him thought similarly.

--
Glenn Holliday holliday.DeleteThis@acm.org
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Colin Davies wrote:

> I ask because if he could remember the Music, then his actions seem
> futile. He must have known that he could never win, and at the end of
> Arda he would be held to account by Illuvator.

"Morgoth's Ring" proposes that Sauron had more knowledge of the Music
than Morgoth did, since he wasn't as engrossed in his own projects when
it (the Music) took place. The Istari were embodied as humans, which
caused their memory of Valinor (not to mention the Music) to become much
more distant, although the Istari did factually _know_ that Valinor, the
Valar and Iluvatar all existed.

So Sauron wasn't a sincere "atheist", but he had convinced himself that
the Valar and Iluvatar had abandoned Arda and no longer cared for it.
Or, at least that Iluvatar had lost interest in it. The Istari Sauron
deemed agents of the Valar with the goal to bring Middle-Earth under
Valarin domination - that is, Sauron assumed the Valar had precisely the
same goals as he himself did.

-JJ
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On 14 Dec 2003 10:08:13 -0800, colin.davies8.DeleteThis@btinternet.com (Colin Davies) wrote:

|It seems to me that even the most evil man would think twice about his
|actions if he had positive proof of a creator to whom he would be held
|accountable in the end.

It's not true in our world. I fail to see why it would necessarily be true in a fictional
one.
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On 14 Dec 2003 10:08:13 -0800,
Colin Davies <colin.davies8 RemoveThis @btinternet.com> wrote:
> Would Sauron (or indeed any of the other Valar or Maiar) have had much
> recollection of his time before Arda? Presumably he would have met
> Illuvator, but would it be a clear recollection or a (Istari like)
> distant memory / vague recollection. Would he be able to remember the
> Music?

I see no reason that Sauron's memory would have faded. The reason the
Istari's did was due to the limitations of their physical form.

>
> I ask because if he could remember the Music, then his actions seem
> futile. He must have known that he could never win, and at the end of
> Arda he would be held to account by Illuvator.

I am quite certain Sauron remembered the Music. I'm also certain that
Sauron thought Eru's hand was no longer in Ea. He thought that the Valar
had turned away, so why not God?

>
> It seems to me that even the most evil man would think twice about his
> actions if he had positive proof of a creator to whom he would be held
> accountable in the end.
>
> This of course also applies to Morgoth, Saruman, Balrogs and all the
> other evil Valar and Maiar.

Morgoth is a little different than anyone else. His rebellion took place
during the Music. He eventually became a nihilist who would have, if he
could, smashed Arda into a pulp.

Sauron was not completely insane like Melkor/Morgoth became. There was,
even in his evil, some trace of good intent. He had been an Ainu
particularly concerned with order. While Morgoth was bent upon destruction,
Sauron would have been happy to have everything under his dominion. He was
a tyrant, not some maniacal god bent upon destroying everything in sight.

It might be that Sauron came to believe that he was, in fact, fulfilling the
Music. Certainly he did have a point, at least within the context that,
after the War of Wrath, the Valar pretty much receeded. The wounds done to
Middle Earth by Morgoth and later by the Valar, were not healed. Thus we
have Celebrimbor and his smiths desiring the healing of wounds and the
preservation of that which was fading. While Sauron certainly aided them
with the notion of dominating them, I'm not entirely sure that he wasn't
himself drawn to the idea of creating order where terrible war had done such
great harm, and where the march of time and the coming of the age of Men
would do more.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
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On Mon, 15 Dec 2003 21:19:19 -0500,
Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> In article <slrnbtrrfl.42s.mightymartianca.TakeThisOut@alder.alberni.net> in
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, AC wrote:
>>I see no reason that Sauron's memory would have faded. The reason the
>>Istari's did was due to the limitations of their physical form.
>
> Sauron had a physical form too -- and he had a physical form for far
> longer than the Istari.

There physical form seems to have been intentionally designed to limit their
power, and whether intentionally, or as a consequence, their memory of
Valinor.

--
Aaron Clausen

tao_of_cow/\alberni.net (replace /\ with @)
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Quoth George Peatty <pttyg47-1230 RemoveThis @copper.net> in article
<7t7stv09ifgil9su6tlqrcusf5anpqbot2 RemoveThis @4ax.com>:
> colin.davies8 RemoveThis @btinternet.com (Colin Davies) wrote:
> >It seems to me that even the most evil man would think twice about
> >his actions if he had positive proof of a creator to whom he would
> >be held accountable in the end.

> It's not true in our world. I fail to see why it would necessarily
> be true in a fictional one.

Do you honestly believe that people who do evil things think they have
positive proof of a creator to whom they would be held accountable in
the end? Remember, that's a very different question than the question
of whether you personally believe such proof exists.

(And that is in turn a different question than whether such proof
_truly_ exists. Countless philosophers, theologians, and
truth-seekers in general have sought that proof for thousands of
years, and still nothing has emerged that holds up under close
scrutiny. That doesn't mean that God does not exist, of course! But
it seems that reason alone leaves enormous room for doubt, and it's
difficult to claim that intuition or inner certainty count as
"positive proof", even for those who have them. But then, that's why
they call it "faith". )

As for Tolkien's world, how common was that "positive proof", anyway?
The only overt direct intervention that Iluvatar made in the world
that I can think of (after its creation, anyway) was the drowning of
Numenor and bending of the seas, which admittedly would be a pretty
convincing display of the power of the Almighty. But by the Third
Age, that was three thousand years in the past and little more than a
legend. Sure, the High Elves still told tales of the Valar, but they
were few and hard to find, and even then their tales were not of the
Creator but of great powers who claimed to represent him. Only the
Istari (and Sauron and the Balrog) had actually "met" Iluvatar in
person, and none of them would have talked about it. It's exceedingly
hard to "prove" claims that you can't test directly yourself!

Steuard Jensen
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Stan Brown <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote in message >
> When he re-formed, it would not have been hard for him to persuade
> himself that getting the Valar involved was the only mistake he had
> made; that Ilúvatar was protecting them perhaps but had no interest
> in Middle-earth. Based on historical evidence, that wasn't so far
> from the mark! But Sauron's delusion was that he had managed to
> forget his knowledge of the Great Music, and Ilúvatar's statement
> that everything any of the Ainur did would be taken up and
> transformed into part of that Music.
>

I like the idea that someone put forward that in a strange perverted
kind of way, Sauron might actually have justified his actions by
thinking he was "doing the work of Illuvatar" by bringing order to the
World after the fall of Morgoth.

Illuvatar's statement that everything any of the Ainur did would be
taken up and transformed into part of the Music almost gives the evil
Ainur an excuse or a justification for their actions. In otherwords,
"We're doing this because Illuvatar has told us it makes the Music
richer and more wholesome - it adds a new dimension to the Music".

Does this mean that rather than pay the price of their evil, and
despite all the suffering, in the end, Sauron and even Melkor, would
not be punished and would be a respected part of the Music. A kind of
Bob Dylan of the Great Music, (i.e. rough voice, controvertal and
confrontational music, yet recoginsed as a genius of his generation
who changed the Music forever). In this scenario, Manwe looks a bit
like Perry Como!

Colin
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On Tue, 16 Dec 2003 05:24:31 GMT, sbjensen.TakeThisOut@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) wrote:

|Do you honestly believe that people who do evil things think they have
|positive proof of a creator to whom they would be held accountable in
|the end? Remember, that's a very different question than the question
|of whether you personally believe such proof exists.

Yes, I do, actually. I cannot prove such a claim empirically, but I can reason to it
without difficulty by accepting as a premise the verbal, plenary inspiration of Scripture,
for therein is the claim explicitly declared:


Rom 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and
wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known
about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the
creation of the world God's invisible qualities-his eternal power and divine nature-have
been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without
excuse.
NIV



The argument is basically threefold:
1) proof of God is contained within creation: I exist; therefore a Holy God exists
2) proof of God's requirements is contained within human conscience, which all men have,
though it can become atrophied from disuse.
3) proof of God's requirements is self-evident from the Mosaic Law.

[snip]

|As for Tolkien's world, how common was that "positive proof", anyway?
|The only overt direct intervention that Iluvatar made in the world
|that I can think of (after its creation, anyway) was the drowning of
|Numenor and bending of the seas, which admittedly would be a pretty
|convincing display of the power of the Almighty. But by the Third
|Age, that was three thousand years in the past and little more than a
|legend. Sure, the High Elves still told tales of the Valar, but they
|were few and hard to find, and even then their tales were not of the
|Creator but of great powers who claimed to represent him. Only the
|Istari (and Sauron and the Balrog) had actually "met" Iluvatar in
|person, and none of them would have talked about it. It's exceedingly
|hard to "prove" claims that you can't test directly yourself!

The witness of a creation that testifies of the Creator would be as strong in Tolkien's
world as it is in ours. Harder, I think, to accept is any claim that Iluvatar loves his
creation, given his unwillingness to restrain the activities of its more malevolent
beings.
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"teepee" <no-email.TakeThisOut@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3fdcd0cf$0$30383

> History is written by the winners. Sauron wouldn't see it like this....

Considering the rise of anti-Jewish sentiment in Europe, and nationalistic
fervor in Germany and Japan, I would take that maxim with a goblet of salt.
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On Wed, 17 Dec 2003 13:24:31 -0500, Stan Brown
<the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>There's a suggestion in "Of the Rings of Power" that Sauron's
>repentance at that time might have been partly genuine. IIRC, in a
>Letter Tolkien suggests that Sauron started as a rebuilder and
>reformer, but wanted more power to do the work (and was impatient
>with lesser minds), thus passing quickly to wanting power for its
>own sake.

*I* don't want power for its own sake. *I* want power so that I can
get the pretty girls and beat up Peter Jackson (for malicious
fabrication).


the softrat
"You've seen the epic. Now experience the Whole Story!"
mailto:softrat@pobox.com
--
My karma ran over my dogma.
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Quoth Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> in article
<MPG.1a4a9b2330e0990198b9aa.TakeThisOut@news.odyssey.net>:
> rec.arts.books.tolkien, Steuard Jensen wrote:
> >If a person who does evil things did not (for whatever reason)
> >accept the Bible as the revealed word of God, then it seems to me
> >that they would have no reason to believe they would be judged by
> >God in the afterlife.

> Really? Even if they accepted the Koran? or the Bhagavad Gita? Or
> ... ?

Ack. In my own defense, I was writing in the context of this specific
discussion, and I wanted to focus on the issues that I thought would
be most meaningful to those involved without distracting everyone with
carefully inclusive language. But now that you point it out, boy, was
that a Christian-centric statement. I'm sure there was another way I
could have phrased it that would have been meaningful AND true.
Thanks for the catch.

> There's always a danger for those of us who grew up in mostly-
> christian countries of falling into the logical error of assuming
> that the only alternatives are (1) christian god and (2) no god.

I'm usually really good about recognizing other alternatives, honest!
In fact, I've championed your very point in many discussions I've
had in the past. But it looks like nobody is immune from carelessly
slipping into the prevailing cultural paradigm that they grew up with.
Or, well, I'm not, at least.
Steuard Jensen
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Quoth mair_fheal RemoveThis @yahoo.com (cassandras morgan mair fheal greykitten
tomys des anges) in article
<mair_fheal-1712031826000001 RemoveThis @c140.ppp.tsoft.com>:
> > > The argument is basically threefold:
> > > 1) proof of God is contained within creation: I exist; therefore a
> > > Holy God exists

> teh universe can be a vacuum fluctuation
> it is not needed to presume a creator for creation

Hmm. I've got to disagree with you there, at least in some sense.
(And keep in mind that I'm a theoretical physicist: I'm pretty much on
top of the details of the "universe as vacuum fluctuation" idea.)
Saying, "the universe is just a vacuum fluctuation" suffers from the
same flaw as many other orign theories: who, then created the vacuum?
(Or if you prefer, who chose the physical laws that describethe
vacuum?) This may be akin to the question, "If God created the
universe, then who created God?" But I think it's considerably harder
to escape than that question is. There are some questions that
science simply is not capable of answering, and I believe that the
_ultimate_ origin of the foundations of reality is one of the greatest.

> > > 2) proof of God's requirements is contained within human conscience,
> > > which all men have, though it can become atrophied from disuse.

> > I personally do believe that a basic notion of right and wrong is
> > "built in" to us (and, I hope, into every thinking being).

> it couldve been built into us by our evolution as social species

Keep in mind that I followed up the comment that you quoted above with
the statement:

"Whether that fundamental understanding of right and wrong comes
from God or from some other source, I'm honestly not sure..."

In fact, I'm fascinated by the current research being done to study
the evolution of moral behavior, whether in other animals, computer
models, or anywhere else. It sounds like a fairly likely explanation
to me... and as I said, I sincerely hope it turns out to be universal.

Steuard Jensen
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On Fri, 19 Dec 2003 06:07:15 GMT, sbjensen.RemoveThis@midway.uchicago.edu
(Steuard Jensen) wrote:

>had in the past. But it looks like nobody is immune from carelessly
>slipping into the prevailing cultural paradigm that they grew up with.

"A father and his son are in an auto accident: the father is killed
instantly and the son terribly injured. At the hospital, they send
the boy straight to the operating room for emergency surgery. As
they wheel him in, the surgeon takes one look and says 'I can't
operate on this boy: he's my son!'

How is this possible?"

The difficulty we have coming up with the incredibly simple solution
to this problem speaks volumes about our prevailing cultural
paradigms.

Jim Deutch
--
Psychoanalysis means saying one thing and meaning your mother.
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