What was Sauron thinking?

amorphous999 wrote:

>One of the things that haven't figured out about LOTR is Sauron's reaction
>to the capture and escape of Frodo from Cirith Ungol. What did Sauron
>think happened there?

It's not clear that Sauron ever discovered these were Hobbits: all the
Orcs involved ascribed "Elvish" powers to them, and exaggerated their
size and prowess in order to excuse their escape. I'll bet the few
(perhaps just one) who escaped alive told their superiors that all
the casualties due to infighting over the mithril coat were instead
due to the spies directly. The Watcher also probably reported (if it
could report -- we really know very little of its nature and
abilities) their Elvish "magic" that got them through the pass.

I suspect that the story that they were Elvish (and/or Numenorian/
Gondoran) spies, while somewhat ridiculous on its face, was the
accepted explanation. Accelerated attack (overwhelm the opposition
before the spies could report back) was the main response (they sent
out desultory searchers, but nothing came of that effort).

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"For six days he had offered many kilowatts of prayer,
but the static kept him from being heard On High."
-- Roger Zelazny, _Lord of Light_
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

JimboCat wrote:
> amorphous999 wrote:
>
>> One of the things that haven't figured out about LOTR is Sauron's reaction
>> to the capture and escape of Frodo from Cirith Ungol. What did Sauron
>> think happened there?
>
> It's not clear that Sauron ever discovered these were Hobbits:

"...there to the wonder and dismay of the Captains he [the Mouth] held
up first the short sword that Sam had carried, ...and last the coat of
mithril-mail that Frodo had worn... Pippin who stood behing Prince
Imrahil sprang forward with a cry of grief.
"...'So you have yet another of these imps with you!' he [the Mouth]
cried." (RotK: The Black Gate Opens)

> all the
> Orcs involved ascribed "Elvish" powers to them, and exaggerated their
> size and prowess in order to excuse their escape.

"...'What use you find in them I cannot guess; but to send them as spies
into Mordor is beyond even your accustomed folly.'" (RotK: The Black
Gate Opens)

Clearly Sauron knew that at least one hobbit had attempted to entered
Mordor, and believed that he was being used as a spy. After all, from
Sauron's point of view there is no other useful purpose that such a
small and weak creature could have. He presumed he understood their
numbers and purpose, and hence he was willing to pretend that this
hobbit had been captured and was being tortured to blackmail the
Captains into capitulation.

At no point does the Mouth allude to any other hobbit or other
infiltrator, so clearly Shagrat had eventually told the truth (whether
willingly or through torture: I'd guess that he probably tried to lie
and was tortured as a matter of routine) - we know this from the
conversation of the tow orcs that almost stumble across Frodo and Sam:

"'First they [Barad-dur] say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then
it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel
Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together.'" (RotK: The Land of Shadow)

Jamie
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Jamie Armstrong <J.D.Armstrong.DeleteThis@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> Clearly Sauron knew that at least one hobbit had attempted to entered
> Mordor, and believed that he was being used as a spy. After all, from
> Sauron's point of view there is no other useful purpose that such a
> small and weak creature could have. He presumed he understood their
> numbers and purpose, and hence he was willing to pretend that this
> hobbit had been captured and was being tortured to blackmail the
> Captains into capitulation.

So, he thought Frodo was some kind of spy. But what could a spy have
wanted to find out? It doesn't seem that it would have helped Gandalf
or Denethor much to know all about Sauron's troop movements, or where
he was keeping his blacksmiths.

I suppose after what happened at Shagrat's tower, Sauron might have
thought that Gandalf had some cunning plan to encourage infighting
among the enemy troops.

-M-
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Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:11:05 GMT from amorphous999 <amorphous999
@MAPSON.hotmail.com>:
> One of the things that haven't figured out about LOTR is Sauron's reaction
> to the capture and escape of Frodo from Cirith Ungol. What did Sauron
> think happened there? What conclusion did he come to as to why Frodo was
> there in the first place? As far as I can tell, he knew 1 or 2 people,
> (probably hobbits) had tried to get into Mordor. One had been captured and
> had escaped. Frodo had been carrying a _very_ expensive chain mail jacket
> and a magic sword.

Remember that from the Orcs' perspective Frodo was the less important
of the two. What mattered was the "great Elvish warrior" with whom
Frodo was traveling and who destroyed the Watchers to liberate him.
That was powerful magic.

Sauron might even think that this warrior had slaughtered a company
of Orcs, though he probably knew well how quarrelsome his servants
were.

If I recall correctly, Frodo didn't have Sting when he was captured.
Sam used it to kill Shelob. But in any event, Sting wasn't a "magic
sword", it was just an Elf-made knife, very natural for Frodo to
carry when he was traveling with an Elvish warrior.

> Are there any previous discussions on this question?

Gee, if only there were some sort of searchable newsgroup archive...

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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On 2008-07-23, Matthew Woodcraft <mattheww.DeleteThis@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote:

> So, he thought Frodo was some kind of spy. But what could a spy have
> wanted to find out?

Scouting for a strike force of eagles, obviously. Sauron was probably
worried about his lines of supply.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Matthew Woodcraft wrote:
> Jamie Armstrong <J.D.Armstrong RemoveThis @durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>Clearly Sauron knew that at least one hobbit had attempted to entered
>>Mordor, and believed that he was being used as a spy. After all, from
>>Sauron's point of view there is no other useful purpose that such a
>>small and weak creature could have. He presumed he understood their
>>numbers and purpose, and hence he was willing to pretend that this
>>hobbit had been captured and was being tortured to blackmail the
>>Captains into capitulation.
>
>
> So, he thought Frodo was some kind of spy. But what could a spy have
> wanted to find out? It doesn't seem that it would have helped Gandalf
> or Denethor much to know all about Sauron's troop movements, or where
> he was keeping his blacksmiths.

Remember that Frodo and Sam and Gollum begin their entry to Mordor
before the WK begins his assault at Pelennor....which if one considered
them spies meant that they were sent on their mission BEFORE that stroke
began. Their purpose no doubt was to try and discover what Sauron was
up to and when a possible attack might come (it came while they were on
their spy mission) and to see if an attack or assault on Mordor via
Cirith Ungol might be possible.
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Stan Brown wrote:
> If I recall correctly, Frodo didn't have Sting when he was captured.
> Sam used it to kill Shelob. But in any event, Sting wasn't a "magic
> sword", it was just an Elf-made knife, very natural for Frodo to
> carry when he was traveling with an Elvish warrior.

The Orc cultural experience of Elves might have caused them to
inflate the significance of Sting, regardless of who carried it.
"It has elf-glow, it's in the same category as Biter and Beater."

--
Glenn Holliday holliday.DeleteThis@acm.org
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Larry Swain wrote:
> Matthew Woodcraft wrote:
>> Jamie Armstrong <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> Clearly Sauron knew that at least one hobbit had attempted to entered
>>> Mordor, and believed that he was being used as a spy. After all, from
>>> Sauron's point of view there is no other useful purpose that such a
>>> small and weak creature could have. He presumed he understood their
>>> numbers and purpose, and hence he was willing to pretend that this
>>> hobbit had been captured and was being tortured to blackmail the
>>> Captains into capitulation.
>>
>> So, he thought Frodo was some kind of spy. But what could a spy have
>> wanted to find out? It doesn't seem that it would have helped Gandalf
>> or Denethor much to know all about Sauron's troop movements, or where
>> he was keeping his blacksmiths.
>
> Remember that Frodo and Sam and Gollum begin their entry to Mordor
> before the WK begins his assault at Pelennor....which if one considered
> them spies meant that they were sent on their mission BEFORE that stroke
> began. Their purpose no doubt was to try and discover what Sauron was
> up to and when a possible attack might come (it came while they were on
> their spy mission) and to see if an attack or assault on Mordor via
> Cirith Ungol might be possible.

I think Matthew's point is that Sauron knows that Denethor has a
palantir (and the right to use it), and therefore has no real need to
send spies into Mordor to examine troop dispositions etc when he can see
for himself. But I agree that Sauron might suppose that they were
scouting out Cirith Ungol as a possible attack route - although, he must
have known that such a route would not support the passage of large
numbers of troops.

Jamie
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Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:33:49 +0100 from Jamie Armstrong
<J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk>:
> I think Matthew's point is that Sauron knows that Denethor has a
> palantir (and the right to use it), and therefore has no real need to
> send spies into Mordor to examine troop dispositions etc when he can see
> for himself.

But *can* Denethor see for himself?

From "The Last Debate":

"The Stones of Seeing do not lie, and not even the Lord of Barad-dûr
can make them do so. He can, maybe, by his will choose what things
shall be seen by weaker minds, or cause them to mistake the meaning
of what they see. Nonetheless it cannot be doubted that when Denethor
saw great forces arrayed against him in Mordor, and more still being
gathered, he saw that which truly is."

This immediately follows the paragraph in which Gandalf talks of
Denethor's "despair" at the impossibility of winning against Sauron's
conventional forces (never mind the Ring). I could be wrong, but I
always took those two paragraphs to mean that Sauron chose what
Denethor saw through the Stone.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
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Jamie Armstrong <J.D.Armstrong RemoveThis @durham.ac.uk> wrote:
> I think Matthew's point is that Sauron knows that Denethor has a
> palantir (and the right to use it), and therefore has no real need to
> send spies into Mordor to examine troop dispositions etc when he can see
> for himself.

Well, it seems Sauron thought of the spy-plan as Gandalf's, and he
probably hoped that Gandalf and Denethor weren't getting on with each
other very well.

So the idea of Gandalf trying to find out when Sauron would attack does
seem as good a theory as any.

-M-
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"Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong.RemoveThis@durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:g67rvs$t77$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...

[snip]

> At no point does the Mouth allude to any other hobbit or other
> infiltrator, so clearly Shagrat had eventually told the truth (whether
> willingly or through torture: I'd guess that he probably tried to lie and
> was tortured as a matter of routine) - we know this from the conversation
> of the tow orcs that almost stumble across Frodo and Sam:
>
> "'First they [Barad-dur] say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then it's
> a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai; or
> maybe it's all the lot together.'" (RotK: The Land of Shadow)

Yes, it is quite clear, I think, that Sauron knew that "daring spies" had
been caught, and then escaped because the orcs started to fight over Frodo's
mithril coat - which Shagrat brought with him. So it's quite possible that
he told the truth - he had the coat as proof. Even so, the tracker orc's
prediction that Shagrat wouldn't remain a captain much longer was probably
true; Sauron does not seem to have been the kind of person to forgive even
honest failures. My personal guess is that Shagrat was demoted to the ranks.

Öjevind
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Stan Brown wrote:

> Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:33:49 +0100 from Jamie Armstrong
> <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk>:
>> I think Matthew's point is that Sauron knows that Denethor has a
>> palantir (and the right to use it), and therefore has no real need to
>> send spies into Mordor to examine troop dispositions etc when he can see
>> for himself.
>
> But *can* Denethor see for himself?

And does he really have the right to use it? I thought part of the cause of
his madness was that he didn't have that right.

--
derek
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I guess the basic point I'm making here is no explanation of the
presence of Frodo and Sam at Cirith Ungol would have fit the facts well.
If they are spies, they could hardly have missed Sauron's army marching
out to attack Minas Tirith. What could they have been looking to find
out? And even if they did find something out, how would a spy
communicate with people in Minas Tirith? And they saw Gollum as well.
A hobbit, Gollum, and a warrior? What are they all doing at Cirith
Ungol (by the way, how did Gollum get through Cirith Ungol)? Given all
these questions, it seems like Sauron underreacted to what happened in
Cirith Ungol. It's what comes of a big ego, I guess.

And yes, I know there is a searchable newsgroup archive, but I just
thought someone might just know of a good discussion thread about this
question off the top of their head.

amorphous

Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in
news:MPG.22f1b0f1cf05450898b736@news.individual.net:

> Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:11:05 GMT from amorphous999 <amorphous999
> @MAPSON.hotmail.com>:
>> One of the things that haven't figured out about LOTR is Sauron's
>> reaction to the capture and escape of Frodo from Cirith Ungol. What
>> did Sauron think happened there? What conclusion did he come to as
>> to why Frodo was there in the first place? As far as I can tell, he
>> knew 1 or 2 people, (probably hobbits) had tried to get into Mordor.
>> One had been captured and had escaped. Frodo had been carrying a
>> _very_ expensive chain mail jacket and a magic sword.
>
> Remember that from the Orcs' perspective Frodo was the less important
> of the two. What mattered was the "great Elvish warrior" with whom
> Frodo was traveling and who destroyed the Watchers to liberate him.
> That was powerful magic.
>
> Sauron might even think that this warrior had slaughtered a company
> of Orcs, though he probably knew well how quarrelsome his servants
> were.
>
> If I recall correctly, Frodo didn't have Sting when he was captured.
> Sam used it to kill Shelob. But in any event, Sting wasn't a "magic
> sword", it was just an Elf-made knife, very natural for Frodo to
> carry when he was traveling with an Elvish warrior.
>
>> Are there any previous discussions on this question?
>
> Gee, if only there were some sort of searchable newsgroup archive...
>
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking?