What was Sauron thinking?

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Steve Morrison" <rimagen RemoveThis @toast.net> skrev i meddelandet
> news:JNOdnYa7eLfgKxLVnZ2dnUVZ_sninZ2d@posted.toastnet...
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>>> I think this is all of a piece with the claims that there is nothing
>>> odd about Gandalf apparently having no idea who Boromir is when
>>> Boromir turns up at the Council of Elrond. Denethor and his sons were
>>> major players, and Gandalf had been to Gondor several times. o
>>> fopcurse he must have known who Boromir was.
>>> IOW, Tolkien sometimes messed up. We all do.
>>>
>>> Öjevind
>>
>> Well, okay, we may all have messed up at some time -- but is that any
>> reason we should be called "fopcurses"???
>>
>> <ducks and covers>
>
> Oops! I didn't mean to inslut anyone.
>
> Öjevind

Well, you certainly have insulated a lot of people with your
"O fopcurse!" remark! And being insulated is the last thing we
needed during a summer like this one.

The only way you can redeem yourself is to say
a hundred "Hail Tyope"s!
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Larry Swain" <giles DeleteThis @poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:DuKdnWfu0LpkWBLVnZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@comcast.com...

[snip]

> Of course its conceivable, for one thing they weren't widely known, not
> even among the nobility. Secondly, those near the king who would know had
> a tendency to die: wars, civil wars, etc...hard to pass on lore when
> you're dead. Over time, they become just a rumor, a myth of better days,
> and then become all but forgotten (when the king comes....) by a few lore
> masters, like Denethor.

In that case, how come Gandalf knew about them and in such detail?

> And if remembered, who knew of their distribution? Who knew of the
> Orthanc stone at the time of Saruman's residence? The king? Maybe, even
> probably, but the king's line died out....did he remember to share that
> information with the Stewards? ANd were the Stewards able to exercise
> enough control to find the other stones?

We are told that Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur fought a war over
possession of the three northern Palantíri. Would the rank and file among
the Dúnedain really have been completely unaware of what they were fighting
over?

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Larry Swain" <giles.DeleteThis@poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:DuKdnWfu0LpkWBLVnZ2dnUVZ_sHinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Of course its conceivable, for one thing they weren't widely known,
>> not even among the nobility. Secondly, those near the king who would
>> know had a tendency to die: wars, civil wars, etc...hard to pass on
>> lore when you're dead. Over time, they become just a rumor, a myth of
>> better days, and then become all but forgotten (when the king
>> comes....) by a few lore masters, like Denethor.
>
>
> In that case, how come Gandalf knew about them and in such detail?

Gandalf's a loe master, is he not, and been in ME for a couple millenia
at that point.....far easier to learn of and then forget such things
than human memory extended over such a long span.
>
>> And if remembered, who knew of their distribution? Who knew of the
>> Orthanc stone at the time of Saruman's residence? The king? Maybe,
>> even probably, but the king's line died out....did he remember to
>> share that information with the Stewards? ANd were the Stewards able
>> to exercise enough control to find the other stones?
>
>
> We are told that Arthedain, Cardolan and Rhudaur fought a war over
> possession of the three northern Palantíri. Would the rank and file
> among the Dúnedain really have been completely unaware of what they were
> fighting over?

That's not quite what we're told. We're told that in the years before
TA 1300, the 3 Dunedain kingdoms of the North fought over territory,
specifically Amon Sul, where a palantir was located. Within the next
century however, Angmar rose, Rhudaur was taken by hillmen, and there's
no indication that the hillmen holding power there knew of the palantir.
Cardolan sided with Arthedain, but was razed in 1409, and the palantir
was removed to Fornost.

So EVEN IF we posit that the "rank and file Dunedain" of those kingdoms
knew about the palantiri in 1300-1409, there's nothing to indicate that
such knowledge survived the downfall of the North and lived on in human
mamory for 1700 years, save in the memory of lore masters like Elrond,
Gandalf, Aragorn who knew his family history, learned largely at
Elrond's knee....
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Stan Brown wrote:
> Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:19:38 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca>:
>
>>Well, any emissary of Gondor could have asked for help. It seems to
>>me that for the Heir to the Steward to call for aid would be
>>tantamount to claiming fealty from all those residing in Gondor's
>>ancestral lands.
>
>
> But Eriador was not one of Gondor's ancestral lands. Remember that
> the South-kingdom was the junior kingdom, not the senior. And in any
> event Rivendell was never subject to any kingdom of Men.
>
> In any event, it was clear from later in the story that Gondor did
> not demand aid. Even when asking Théoden for help, where there were
> solemn treaty obligations in place and Gondor had every right to
> insist, the messenger *asked* rather than trying to *command*.
>

Boromir at the Council of Elrond:

"But I do not seek allies in war. For the might of Elrond is in wisdom,
not in weapons, it is said."

"I was not sent to beg any boon, but only to seek the meaning of a riddle."
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"amorphous999" <amorphous999.TakeThisOut@MAPSON.hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns9AEAD6AF09430nobodyNOSPAMnowherec@207.115.17.102...

[snip]

>> Perhaps Sauron was the George Bush of Middle-earth. that would make the
>> Witch-king Dick Cheney and the Mouth of Sauron Donald Rumsfeld. Shelob?
>> Condoleezza Rice, only more attractive.
>>
>> Öjevind
>>
>
> Tolkien the prophet (yeah, right). You could do a long essay on all the
> interpretations people have tried to straitjacket LotR into. The Ring as
> atomic weapons was a popular one back during the Cold War. It was a lousy
> fit although equating Gandalf ad the James Bond of Middle Earth has always
> had a certain appeal to me. Tolkien, like Mark Twain always said it was
> just a story; I think that's one of the reasons you don't have the words
> "A
> Novel" in the title.
>
> You could do a pretty good skit on the idea of "Sauron's Weekly Staff
> Meetings". Make sure your will is up to date

Heh. It's a tempting thought.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "amorphous999" <amorphous999.TakeThisOut@MAPSON.hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:Xns9AEAD6AF09430nobodyNOSPAMnowherec@207.115.17.102...
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Perhaps Sauron was the George Bush of Middle-earth. that would make the
>>> Witch-king Dick Cheney and the Mouth of Sauron Donald Rumsfeld. Shelob?
>>> Condoleezza Rice, only more attractive.
>>>
>>> Öjevind
>>>
>>
>> Tolkien the prophet (yeah, right). You could do a long essay on all the
>> interpretations people have tried to straitjacket LotR into. The Ring as
>> atomic weapons was a popular one back during the Cold War. It was a
>> lousy
>> fit although equating Gandalf ad the James Bond of Middle Earth has
>> always
>> had a certain appeal to me. Tolkien, like Mark Twain always said it was
>> just a story; I think that's one of the reasons you don't have the
>> words "A
>> Novel" in the title.
>>
>> You could do a pretty good skit on the idea of "Sauron's Weekly Staff
>> Meetings". Make sure your will is up to date
>
>
> Heh. It's a tempting thought.


Hmmm, Gandalf with a Scottish accent and lots of technical
gadgets.....Frodo as sexy ingenue? Sauron would have to be Blofeld.....
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Steve Morrison" <rimagen DeleteThis @toast.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:Wf-dnVd0bf26oAzVnZ2dnUVZ_sPinZ2d@posted.toastnet...

[snip]

> I was stunned last evening to see _over forty_ on-topic posts. Now I
> half expect to log on and see a new Chapter of the Week post, or
> even a Scandinavian language thread. (BTW, how long has it been since
> the last time the latter occurred?)

Well, Raven has been away; I think I'm the only Scand currently psoting
here.
Notice that I called him Raven and not Røven - he would not deserve such
trasking. By the way, Raven, do you say "røv" in Norwegian too?

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net.RemoveThis@ojevind.lang> skrev i meddelelsen
news:6fdguvFb4fbfU1@mid.individual.net...

> Notice that I called him Raven and not Røven - he would not deserve such
> trasking. By the way, Raven, do you say "røv" in Norwegian too?

No, ræv. Or rass, which is directly descended from the Old Norse word
and cognate to "arse" and "Arsch", presumably.
<yihaa! a scand language post!>

Korpen.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Steve Morrison" <rimagen.RemoveThis@toast.net> skrev i meddelandet
> news:Wf-dnVd0bf26oAzVnZ2dnUVZ_sPinZ2d@posted.toastnet...
>
> [snip]
>
>> I was stunned last evening to see _over forty_ on-topic posts. Now I
>> half expect to log on and see a new Chapter of the Week post, or
>> even a Scandinavian language thread. (BTW, how long has it been since
>> the last time the latter occurred?)
>
> Well, Raven has been away; I think I'm the only Scand currently
> psoting here.

I think Troels will disagree with you on that.

I am here to, though I only post very little.

> Notice that I called him Raven and not Røven - he would not deserve
> such trasking. By the way, Raven, do you say "røv" in Norwegian too?

Sikke da et sprog. Fy-dog.

--
Venlig hilsen /Best regards
Kristian Damm Jensen
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Larry Swain" <giles.TakeThisOut@poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:iLednRWvlf0IcwzVnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@comcast.com...
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>> "amorphous999" <amorphous999.TakeThisOut@MAPSON.hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
>> news:Xns9AEAD6AF09430nobodyNOSPAMnowherec@207.115.17.102...
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>>> Perhaps Sauron was the George Bush of Middle-earth. that would make the
>>>> Witch-king Dick Cheney and the Mouth of Sauron Donald Rumsfeld. Shelob?
>>>> Condoleezza Rice, only more attractive.
>>>>
>>>> Öjevind
>>>>
>>>
>>> Tolkien the prophet (yeah, right). You could do a long essay on all the
>>> interpretations people have tried to straitjacket LotR into. The Ring
>>> as
>>> atomic weapons was a popular one back during the Cold War. It was a
>>> lousy
>>> fit although equating Gandalf ad the James Bond of Middle Earth has
>>> always
>>> had a certain appeal to me. Tolkien, like Mark Twain always said it was
>>> just a story; I think that's one of the reasons you don't have the words
>>> "A
>>> Novel" in the title.
>>>
>>> You could do a pretty good skit on the idea of "Sauron's Weekly Staff
>>> Meetings". Make sure your will is up to date
>>
>> Heh. It's a tempting thought.
>
> Hmmm, Gandalf with a Scottish accent and lots of technical
> gadgets.....Frodo as sexy ingenue? Sauron would have to be Blofeld.....

And Morgoth would be in the background, petting a cat all the time?

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Larry Swain" <giles.RemoveThis@poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:iLednRWvlf0IcwzVnZ2dnUVZ_tLinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>
>>> "amorphous999" <amorphous999.RemoveThis@MAPSON.hotmail.com> skrev i meddelandet
>>> news:Xns9AEAD6AF09430nobodyNOSPAMnowherec@207.115.17.102...
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>>> Perhaps Sauron was the George Bush of Middle-earth. that would make
>>>>> the
>>>>> Witch-king Dick Cheney and the Mouth of Sauron Donald Rumsfeld.
>>>>> Shelob?
>>>>> Condoleezza Rice, only more attractive.
>>>>>
>>>>> Öjevind
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tolkien the prophet (yeah, right). You could do a long essay on all
>>>> the
>>>> interpretations people have tried to straitjacket LotR into. The
>>>> Ring as
>>>> atomic weapons was a popular one back during the Cold War. It was a
>>>> lousy
>>>> fit although equating Gandalf ad the James Bond of Middle Earth has
>>>> always
>>>> had a certain appeal to me. Tolkien, like Mark Twain always said it
>>>> was
>>>> just a story; I think that's one of the reasons you don't have the
>>>> words "A
>>>> Novel" in the title.
>>>>
>>>> You could do a pretty good skit on the idea of "Sauron's Weekly Staff
>>>> Meetings". Make sure your will is up to date
>>>
>>>
>>> Heh. It's a tempting thought.
>>
>>
>> Hmmm, Gandalf with a Scottish accent and lots of technical
>> gadgets.....Frodo as sexy ingenue? Sauron would have to be Blofeld.....
>
>
> And Morgoth would be in the background, petting a cat all the time?

Indeed, yes! But who would be Diana Rigg? Galadriel?
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Raven wrote:
> "Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net.RemoveThis@ojevind.lang> skrev i meddelelsen
> news:6fdguvFb4fbfU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>> Notice that I called him Raven and not Røven - he would not deserve
>> such trasking. By the way, Raven, do you say "røv" in Norwegian too?
>
> No, ræv. Or rass, which is directly descended from the Old Norse
> word and cognate to "arse" and "Arsch", presumably.
> <yihaa! a scand language post!>

This lend a completely new perspective on Rune T. Kiddes: Røven og
rænnebærene. (To the title, at least.)


--
Venlig hilsen /Best regards
Kristian Damm Jensen
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Raven" <jon.lennart.beck.its.my.name.RemoveThis@mail.its.in.danmark> skrev i
meddelandet news:4891c5da$0$56778$edfadb0f@dtext02.news.tele.dk...
> "Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net.RemoveThis@ojevind.lang> skrev i meddelelsen
> news:6fdguvFb4fbfU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>> Notice that I called him Raven and not Røven - he would not deserve such
>> trasking. By the way, Raven, do you say "røv" in Norwegian too?
>
> No, ræv. Or rass, which is directly descended from the Old Norse word
> and cognate to "arse" and "Arsch", presumably.
> <yihaa! a scand language post!>

Of course, in Swedish we say "röv" - we use another Scandinavian letter (the
one also used in Icelandic) instead of the Danish and Norwegian "ø".

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking?