What was Sauron thinking?

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> Oops! How could I have forgotten you two? It must be the heat. Is it
> as horribly hot in Denmark as it is here in Sweden?

Yup. 20C at night in some places. But by tomorrow we should be able to cool
down.

--
Venlig hilsen /Best regards
Kristian Damm Jensen
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

In message <news:6fgud3Fbi586U1@mid.individual.net>
Öjevind Lång <bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> spoke these staves:
>
> "Kristian Damm Jensen" <dNOamSPm.uAMsenet RemoveThis @kristiandamm.dk> skrev i
> meddelandet news:48929620$0$15891$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
>>
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>>
>>> Well, Raven has been away; I think I'm the only Scand currently
>>> psoting here.
>>
>> I think Troels will disagree with you on that.

Aye -- I may not be as active as at other times, but I am here still

>> I am here to, though I only post very little.

But of course we maintain a constant rate of quality, right

> Oops! How could I have forgotten you two? It must be the heat.

Assuming that it's been as bad 'down south' as here, I am ready to
accept that explanation at face value.

> Is it as horribly hot in Denmark as it is here in Sweden?

I can't really say, but it is certainly sweltering here by Vättern --
I've been in a camping hut with the family the past few days here at
Vadstena (Sweden -- I do stay Scand), and it's been too hot for my
tastes. Still, waking up by a swim in the lake is one of the best ways
to start the day that I know of.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

Then suddenly the foresight of his kindred came to him, and
he said: "But lo! Master Elrond, the years of your abiding
run short at last, and the choice must soon be laid on your
children, to part either with you or with Middle-earth.
- Aragorn, /The Lord of the Rings/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Öjevind Lång" <bredband.net.DeleteThis@ojevind.lang> wrote in message
news:6fgu7lFbaaqnU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Larry Swain" <giles.DeleteThis@poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:mYidnaQlPdcVpQ7VnZ2dnUVZ_j6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>
> [snip]
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Perhaps Sauron was the George Bush of Middle-earth. that would make
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Witch-king Dick Cheney and the Mouth of Sauron Donald Rumsfeld.
>>>>>>> Shelob?
>>>>>>> Condoleezza Rice, only more attractive.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Öjevind
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Tolkien the prophet (yeah, right). You could do a long essay on all
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> interpretations people have tried to straitjacket LotR into. The
>>>>>> Ring as
>>>>>> atomic weapons was a popular one back during the Cold War. It was a
>>>>>> lousy
>>>>>> fit although equating Gandalf ad the James Bond of Middle Earth has
>>>>>> always
>>>>>> had a certain appeal to me. Tolkien, like Mark Twain always said it
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> just a story; I think that's one of the reasons you don't have the
>>>>>> words "A
>>>>>> Novel" in the title.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You could do a pretty good skit on the idea of "Sauron's Weekly Staff
>>>>>> Meetings". Make sure your will is up to date
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Heh. It's a tempting thought.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hmmm, Gandalf with a Scottish accent and lots of technical
>>>> gadgets.....Frodo as sexy ingenue? Sauron would have to be
>>>> Blofeld.....
>>>
>>>
>>> And Morgoth would be in the background, petting a cat all the time?
>>
>> Indeed, yes! But who would be Diana Rigg? Galadriel?
>
> Absolutely! And Rosie Cotton could be Miss Moneypenny.
>
> Öjevind

The Mouth of Sauron is Jaws? (not the shark, of course...)
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Kristian Damm Jensen" <dNOamSPm.uAMsenet DeleteThis @kristiandamm.dk> skrev i
meddelandet news:48936e70$0$15872$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...

[snip]

>>> Notice that I called him Raven and not Røven - he would not deserve
>>> such trasking. By the way, Raven, do you say "røv" in Norwegian too?
>>
>> No, ræv. Or rass, which is directly descended from the Old Norse
>> word and cognate to "arse" and "Arsch", presumably.
>> <yihaa! a scand language post!>
>
> This lend a completely new perspective on Rune T. Kiddes: Røven og
> rænnebærene. (To the title, at least.)

It's a fascinating circumstance that the classical spaghetti western, "A
Fistful of Dollars", is apparently known in Denmark as "Røven fuld af
dollar". It would have interested Freud no end.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Steve Morrison wrote:

> Well, you certainly have insulated a lot of people with your
> "O fopcurse!" remark! And being insulated is the last thing we
> needed during a summer like this one.

i'll have my insulation in igloos, please.

> The only way you can redeem yourself is to say
> a hundred "Hail Tyope"s!

hail tyope, full of grapes...

--
tamf.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

In message <news:6f88v7Fac56qU1@mid.individual.net>
Öjevind_Lång <bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang> spoke these staves:
>
> Boromir had come to Rivendell as the son of Denethor. He is
> invited to the Council, where if course his identity has to be
> revealed, because otherwise there is no point in him being at the
> Council.

I'm not averse to the idea that Tolkien made mistakes (I belive I
said so myself recently), but I don't think that this is necessarily
one.

Boromir arrived only on the morning of the Council, and upon hearing
about his dream, Elrond would have invited him to the council with
nothing else told.

It does seem a little strange that Boromir would have kept his
lineage quiet, I'd have imagined that he would have presented himself
as the son of the Steward at once, before relating the dream --
though I can't tell whether it is less strange than his asking Elrond
to keep it quiet for the time being (it's either one of these or else
Elrond himself came up with the singly uninformative presentation,
which is, as you note, at odds with all other introductions). That
Gandalf shouldn't immediately recognize Boromir would only, IMO, be
strange if Gandalf and Boromir were known to have met when Gandalf
was in Minas Tirith in TA3017, and based on Faramir's account to
Frodo and Sam and Denethor's general distrust of Gandalf, I think it
quite likely that Boromir would have made a point of not meeting
Gandalf the last couple of times Gandalf was in Minas Tirith.

I think it is more strange that both Boromir and Gandalf continue to
act as if they not only hadn't met before the council, but hadn't
heard anything much about each other as well -- both of them would of
course have known /about/ the other, but I don't think that this is
really hinted at in the text. To me this is more odd (i.e. a more
likely error) than the introduction of Boromir at the council.

A lot of the errors that Tolkien did leave in The Lord of the Rings
are, as I understand it, due to traces left of earlier versions of
the tale that have become inconsistent with the story as it appears
in the end. We have, for instance, previously discussed the hints of
the torture of the hobbit Trotter at the hands of the Black Riders in
Moria -- hints that survive into Aragorn's character in the published
book, but which now hint at events that no longer 'exist' that
happened to a character that doesn't exist either. And so, I can't
help wondering if this cryptic introduction of Boromir is a similar
remnant of another story that didn't come to be? Was Boromir's role
foreseen when he first appeared in writing, or did it only emerge
slowly much later in the tale, only to be added to the story of the
Council of Elrond (and the later story), but imperfectly so?

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

"He deserves death."
"Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve
death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to
them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in
judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends."
- Frodo and Gandalf, /The Fellowship of the Ring/ (J.R.R. Tolkien)
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

In message <news:488e0d80$0$15893$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk>
"Raven" <jon.lennart.beck.its.my.name RemoveThis @mail.its.in.danmark> spoke
these staves:
>
> "Troels Forchhammer" <Troels RemoveThis @ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i
> meddelelsen news:Xns9AE8DD415EC74T.Forch@130.133.1.4...
>>
>> [$] Many of the elvish abilities are quite functionalistic --
>> such as both the warning of the swords, the camouflage ability of
>> the cloaks, and the auto-untie function of the rope. And then
>> there is the other stuff -- the songs and rings of power, for
>> instance, where the elvish magic becomes magic in the more usual
>> sense.
>
>> [#] By 'means', I think of the difference between the magic
>> achieved inherently and, more importantlhy, without deliberation,
>> as 'Art' -- an immanent aspect of elvish craftmanship; and then
>> the other kind of magic that requires spells, songs of power,
>> evil spirits etc.
>
> (Back from two weeks of hard work at Green Concert, and to my
> delight seeing an actual Tolkien discussion, like in the old days.)
>
> It seems to me that part of this Elvish magic was the art of
> imbuing will into the things they made. This did not require that
> they imbue sentience into them.

At the nit-picking level, I'm not sure that I think that 'will' is
the best word here. Possibly 'purpose' would fit my idea better
(certainly I'd be more comfortable using Danish "formål" rather than
"vilje", though I'm not sure if the English words carry the same
connotations as their usual Danish translations).

Of course 'sentience' in the literal sense (the ability to sense
things) would be required for many of the functions, but we agree
that the ability to /think/ wasn't part of it.

> Not only the Elves could do so; Sauron imbued his will into the
> Ring, and in its unsentient way it always worked towards evil.

Let's not go there this time, eh? (I do remain undecided on the
question of whether the One Ring was capable of something
sufficiently similar to 'thought' for that word to be applied in a
meaningful way).

<snip>

> Technology is the art of making and using tools. These tools
> work because the makers know the physical properties of the
> materials used in them and have the wit and skill to use this.
[...]
> But in my guess, in Tolkien's subcreation, the rope of Lórien
> untied itself at the opportune moment because it had the will to
> serve.

I'm not sure if this is compatible with Stan's position (just to
clarify -- not that any of you have claimed that your positions
should be compatible): that what we might call 'Elvish magic' here is
not, actually, magic or supernatural in Middle-earth, but a
reflection of the natural state of things there (my paraphrasing,
which may of course be off by miles).

It seems to me that you are suggesting that the Elves imbue these
items with something that go beyond their natural (in the 'laws of
nature' sense) state and capabilities? Not that I'm unwilling to go
there -- quite the opposite, in fact And I still think that it
could be seen as being perfectly natural to the Elves if we allow
that they could somehow access something extra, which is, to them,
natural, but is to us inaccessible (or only accessible through means
that are magical in the more traditional sense).

This makes me wonder if any Man, however learned in sorcery he might
be (such as the Mouth of Sauron) could have reproduced the effects on
the elvish rope or on Sting?

> At least it had the will to serve legitimate users;
[...]

Which of course also raises the question of how it recognized a
legitimate user (a question which is particularly relevant in
connection with the palantíri that had the ability to distinguish the
legitimacy of a user in a quite complex manner and in subtle
degrees).

> The cloaks had the will to protect both from cold and from heat
> apparently beyond the thermodynamic properties of the cloth, and
> the will to conceal the wearers from unfriendly eyes.

These seems to me to be extensions of the purpose of the items --
they are meant to be able to function in ways that are beyond the
functionality that can be achieved by Men, but I'm not sure I'd say
that it needs a 'will' in the tool (the cloaks, for instance, didn't
just conceal their wearers when they needed them to -- this
chameleon-power worked perpetually).

> Gurthang was imbued by the ill will of its maker Eöl, and to this
> is attributed in part the occasional ill uses of it; it was not a
> lucky sword although certainly a mighty one.

Aye -- Melian commented on it when Beleg chose the sword: 'There is
malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it.
It will not love the hand it serves; neither will it abide with you
long.' I do, however, get the impression that this is an exception --
normally items don't have, as it were, a 'will of their own' -- they
have a purpose which they serve, which may even include some farily
complex rules (usually for identifying a 'rightful' owner / user),
but not, I think, a will as such.

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"NY Teacher" <Teach.RemoveThis@you.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:kR%kk.1296$Cm1.789@fe109.usenetserver.com...

[snip]

>>>>>>> Tolkien the prophet (yeah, right). You could do a long essay on all
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> interpretations people have tried to straitjacket LotR into. The
>>>>>>> Ring as
>>>>>>> atomic weapons was a popular one back during the Cold War. It was a
>>>>>>> lousy
>>>>>>> fit although equating Gandalf ad the James Bond of Middle Earth has
>>>>>>> always
>>>>>>> had a certain appeal to me. Tolkien, like Mark Twain always said it
>>>>>>> was
>>>>>>> just a story; I think that's one of the reasons you don't have the
>>>>>>> words "A
>>>>>>> Novel" in the title.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You could do a pretty good skit on the idea of "Sauron's Weekly
>>>>>>> Staff
>>>>>>> Meetings". Make sure your will is up to date
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Heh. It's a tempting thought.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hmmm, Gandalf with a Scottish accent and lots of technical
>>>>> gadgets.....Frodo as sexy ingenue? Sauron would have to be
>>>>> Blofeld.....
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And Morgoth would be in the background, petting a cat all the time?
>>>
>>> Indeed, yes! But who would be Diana Rigg? Galadriel?
>>
>> Absolutely! And Rosie Cotton could be Miss Moneypenny.
>>
>> Öjevind
>
> The Mouth of Sauron is Jaws? (not the shark, of course...)

Good Lord, no! Jaws (the character in the Bond films) is much too nice for
that. Jaws could be... umm... Ioreth - you know, a really tough jaw.
The Mouth of Sauron could be Dr Yes.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> It's a fascinating circumstance that the classical spaghetti western,
> "A Fistful of Dollars", is apparently known in Denmark as "Røven fuld
> af dollar".

But it's not. It is know as "En nævefuld dollar".


--
Venlig hilsen /Best regards
Kristian Damm Jensen
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Sat, 02 Aug 2008 18:55:52 +0200 from Troels Forchhammer
<Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid>:
> In message <news:488e0d80$0$15893$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk>
> "Raven" <jon.lennart.beck.its.my.name.DeleteThis@mail.its.in.danmark> spoke
> these staves:
> > [quoted text muted]
> >
> > It seems to me that part of this Elvish magic was the art of
> > imbuing will into the things they made. This did not require that
> > they imbue sentience into them.
>
> At the nit-picking level, I'm not sure that I think that 'will' is
> the best word here. Possibly 'purpose' would fit my idea better
> (certainly I'd be more comfortable using Danish "formål" rather than
> "vilje", though I'm not sure if the English words carry the same
> connotations as their usual Danish translations).

My ordbog translates the second word as "purpose (of a machine)",
among other meanings, and I think that would be reasonable.

I too am quite uncomfortable with the idea of "will" in Elvish
artifacts.

When you wear loose-weave cotton for comfort in the summer, does the
cotton have a "will" to keep you cooler? Of course not; that's just
how it works. Do your stainless-steel forks and knives have a "will"
to keep themselves shiny? Of course not; that's just properties of
the particular alloy they're made of.

In everyday technology we tend to speak as though machines,
particularly computers, have will and sentience, but we know that is
just a rhetorical convenience and not reality. "The program knows
your credit balance" and "the computer wants you to enter your user
name and password" are unremarkable statements though literally
absurd. (Note the analogy to "The Ring was trying to get back to
Sauron.")

When we see technology we're not familiar with, it can be startling
and we can think it is the operation of will until we think again.
For instance, if you try to open the door of my Toyota Prius, it will
not open for you; but if I try to open the same door, it will. Why?
Because I have a small transmitter in my pocket, and when that
transmitter is within a meter of the car anyone can open a locked
door. But it sure looks like Prius "recognized its owner"!

Did the cloaks of the Company have will? I believe the answer is a
definite No. They worked the way they did because they were made to
work the way they did. If you say you can't imagine a technology that
would be visible to friendly eyes and pass unnoticed by unfriendly
eyes, I'll admit that I can't either. That doesn't mean we won't one
day have the technology. After all, in Tolkien's time, who could have
imagined how a Palantír worked? Yet closed-circuit video conferencing
is today a commonplace in business meetings.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Kristian Damm Jensen" <dNOamSPm.uAMsenet DeleteThis @kristiandamm.dk> skrev i
meddelandet news:4894db80$0$15897$edfadb0f@dtext01.news.tele.dk...
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>> It's a fascinating circumstance that the classical spaghetti western,
>> "A Fistful of Dollars", is apparently known in Denmark as "Røven fuld
>> af dollar".
>
> But it's not. It is know as "En nævefuld dollar".

Then someone has lied to me - a Danophobe, no doubt. Unless there is another
film with the translated title I supplied.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

amorphous999 wrote:
> ...
> Also, of course in the end Frodo's quest to destroy the Ring did fail
> because Frodo was unable to throw the Ring into the Fire. He was
> rescued by Gollum. I'm not suure what Tolkien's point was here. Maybe
> it was: Do the right thing, make the hard but correct choices, and Eru
> will provide.

Something like that, yes. It reminds me of, so I assume Tolkien
also had in mind, the Christian doctrine that people are never good
enough or strong enough. All fall short. The right thing happens only
when relying on God rather than on self.

--
Glenn Holliday holliday RemoveThis @acm.org
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Glenn Holliday <holliday.RemoveThis@acm.org> wrote in news:MNolk.110$ZV1.34@trnddc07:

> amorphous999 wrote:
> > ...
>> Also, of course in the end Frodo's quest to destroy the Ring did fail
>> because Frodo was unable to throw the Ring into the Fire. He was
>> rescued by Gollum. I'm not suure what Tolkien's point was here. Maybe
>> it was: Do the right thing, make the hard but correct choices, and Eru
>> will provide.
>
> Something like that, yes. It reminds me of, so I assume Tolkien
> also had in mind, the Christian doctrine that people are never good
> enough or strong enough. All fall short. The right thing happens only
> when relying on God rather than on self.
>

Does Tolkien talk about his religion and ethics anyplace? I don't expect
him to talk about morals in LoTR, but is there a talk about faith and right
and wrong someplace?

Also, now that I think about it, religion would be completely different in
Middle Earth. You don't have Christianity, Buddhism, etc. because the
creation story is known, and semi-divine beings really exist. If you are
an Elf or a Numenorean, you don't have theology; you have history. The
songs and stories in Rivendell and Lorien were at the same time histories,
stories, and prayers.

Do Orcs have religion? Hmmmm....

amorphous
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking?