What was Sauron thinking?

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Jamie Armstrong" <J.D.Armstrong DeleteThis @durham.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:g67rvs$t77$1@heffalump.dur.ac.uk...
>
> [snip]
>
>> At no point does the Mouth allude to any other hobbit or other
>> infiltrator, so clearly Shagrat had eventually told the truth (whether
>> willingly or through torture: I'd guess that he probably tried to lie
>> and was tortured as a matter of routine) - we know this from the
>> conversation of the tow orcs that almost stumble across Frodo and Sam:
>>
>> "'First they [Barad-dur] say it's a great Elf in bright armour, then
>> it's a sort of small dwarf-man, then it must be a pack of rebel
>> Uruk-hai; or maybe it's all the lot together.'" (RotK: The Land of
>> Shadow)
>
>
> Yes, it is quite clear, I think, that Sauron knew that "daring spies"
> had been caught, and then escaped because the orcs started to fight over
> Frodo's mithril coat - which Shagrat brought with him. So it's quite
> possible that he told the truth - he had the coat as proof. Even so, the
> tracker orc's prediction that Shagrat wouldn't remain a captain much
> longer was probably true; Sauron does not seem to have been the kind of
> person to forgive even honest failures. My personal guess is that
> Shagrat was demoted to the ranks.
>
> Öjevind

I suspect rather that his head was demoted....
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

amorphous999 wrote:
> I guess the basic point I'm making here is no explanation of the
> presence of Frodo and Sam at Cirith Ungol would have fit the facts well.
> If they are spies, they could hardly have missed Sauron's army marching
> out to attack Minas Tirith.

If that was there only mission, or even chief mission, esp. if Sauron
thinks it is Gandalf who sent them.

What could they have been looking to find
> out?

If Gandalf is the source, all manner of thing....remember that he thinks
that Gandalf or Aragorn has the Ring and that they intend to use it
against him.

And even if they did find something out, how would a spy
> communicate with people in Minas Tirith?

Elvish warrior?

And they saw Gollum as well.
> A hobbit, Gollum, and a warrior?


Remember that Sauron also knows that Gollum was allowed (by himself no
less!) to escape Mordor, that he was captured by Aragorn, taken to
Thranduil, and likely questioned by Gandalf, or that Gandalf at the
least knows the result of that questioning, including another possible
way into Mordor that might not be as guarded as the main gate. Gollum
was simply recaptured by Gandalf and CO. and is now trading his life to
act as guide....

What are they all doing at Cirith
> Ungol (by the way, how did Gollum get through Cirith Ungol)?

Sauron let him go, and he made a deal with Shelob.

Given all
> these questions, it seems like Sauron underreacted to what happened in
> Cirith Ungol. It's what comes of a big ego, I guess.
>
> And yes, I know there is a searchable newsgroup archive, but I just
> thought someone might just know of a good discussion thread about this
> question off the top of their head.
>
> amorphous
>
> Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote in
> news:MPG.22f1b0f1cf05450898b736@news.individual.net:
>
>
>>Wed, 23 Jul 2008 00:11:05 GMT from amorphous999 <amorphous999
>>@MAPSON.hotmail.com>:
>>
>>>One of the things that haven't figured out about LOTR is Sauron's
>>>reaction to the capture and escape of Frodo from Cirith Ungol. What
>>>did Sauron think happened there? What conclusion did he come to as
>>>to why Frodo was there in the first place? As far as I can tell, he
>>>knew 1 or 2 people, (probably hobbits) had tried to get into Mordor.
>>>One had been captured and had escaped. Frodo had been carrying a
>>>_very_ expensive chain mail jacket and a magic sword.
>>
>>Remember that from the Orcs' perspective Frodo was the less important
>>of the two. What mattered was the "great Elvish warrior" with whom
>>Frodo was traveling and who destroyed the Watchers to liberate him.
>>That was powerful magic.
>>
>>Sauron might even think that this warrior had slaughtered a company
>>of Orcs, though he probably knew well how quarrelsome his servants
>>were.
>>
>>If I recall correctly, Frodo didn't have Sting when he was captured.
>>Sam used it to kill Shelob. But in any event, Sting wasn't a "magic
>>sword", it was just an Elf-made knife, very natural for Frodo to
>>carry when he was traveling with an Elvish warrior.
>>
>>
>>>Are there any previous discussions on this question?
>>
>>Gee, if only there were some sort of searchable newsgroup archive...
>>
>
>
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Larry Swain wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:33:49 +0100 from Jamie Armstrong
>>> <J.D.Armstrong.RemoveThis@durham.ac.uk>:
>>>
>>>> I think Matthew's point is that Sauron knows that Denethor has a
>>>> palantir (and the right to use it), and therefore has no real need to
>>>> send spies into Mordor to examine troop dispositions etc when he can
>>>> see
>>>> for himself.
>>>
>>> But *can* Denethor see for himself?
>>
>>
>> And does he really have the right to use it? I thought part of the
>> cause of
>> his madness was that he didn't have that right.
>>
>
> I don't know about the madness, but while he could use the stone,
> Aragorn and the heirs Isildur are the only ones with the right...as
> Aragorn suggests after he has wrested the Orthanc stone from Sauron and
> revealed himself.

But the essay on the Palantíri says the right to use them could be
delegated, and in fact specifically says Denethor had such delegated
authority. /UT/ pp. 407-8:

[...]In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened,
even against Sauron himself, by the fact that the Stones were
far more amenable to legitimate users: most of all to true
'Heirs' of Elendil' (as Aragorn), but also to one with
inherited authority (as Denethor), as compared to Saruman, or
Sauron. It may be noted that the effects were different.
Saruman fell under the domination of Sauron and desired his
victory, or no longer opposed it. Denethor remained steadfast
in his rejection of Sauron, but was made to believe that his
victory was inevitable, and so fell into despair. The reasons
for this difference were no doubt that in the first place
Denethor was a man of great strength of will, and maintained
the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the
(apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son. He was
proud, but this was by no means merely personal: he loved
Gondor and its people, and deemed himself appointed by destiny
to lead them in this desperate time. And in the second place
the Anor-stone was his /by right/, and nothing but expediency
was against his use of it in his grave anxieties.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Larry Swain wrote:

> Öjevind Lång wrote:

>> Sauron does not seem to have been the kind of
>> person to forgive even honest failures. My personal guess is that
>> Shagrat was demoted to the ranks.
>>
> I suspect rather that his head was demoted....

Or, knowing the eating habits of Orcs, he may have been demoted to the
cookpot. Demotion to the ranks seems a slack punishment for this sort of
offense in some Human armies.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Stan Brown wrote:

> Sting wasn't a "magic sword"

Sting had "sufficiently advanced technology" (which is
indistinguishable from magic) to emit blue photons
in the presence of orcs.

SQ
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:16:37 -0300 from Derek Broughton
<news RemoveThis @pointerstop.ca>:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:33:49 +0100 from Jamie Armstrong
> > <J.D.Armstrong RemoveThis @durham.ac.uk>:
> >> I think Matthew's point is that Sauron knows that Denethor has a
> >> palantir (and the right to use it), and therefore has no real need to
> >> send spies into Mordor to examine troop dispositions etc when he can see
> >> for himself.
> >
> > But *can* Denethor see for himself?
>
> And does he really have the right to use it? I thought part of the cause of
> his madness was that he didn't have that right.

No, he had the right. The hereditary Stewards were deputies of the
King, empowered to act for him in his absence.

I can't remember off hand, and IDHTBIFOM, but did _Saruman_ have the
right? He was installed in Isengard by the Steward, who had the
right to dispose of the royal domain as he saw fit, so I think the
answer is Yes; but I have a dim memory that Tolkien said somewhere
that Saruman did not have the right to use the Stone.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:24:07 GMT from Sean_Q_ <nospam.TakeThisOut@no.sapm>:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > Sting wasn't a "magic sword"
>
> Sting had "sufficiently advanced technology" (which is
> indistinguishable from magic) to emit blue photons
> in the presence of orcs.

Right, but so did every Elvish blade.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

On 2008-07-25, Stan Brown <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Thu, 24 Jul 2008 23:16:37 -0300 from Derek Broughton
><news.TakeThisOut@pointerstop.ca>:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> > Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:33:49 +0100 from Jamie Armstrong
>> > <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk>:
>> >> I think Matthew's point is that Sauron knows that Denethor has a
>> >> palantir (and the right to use it), and therefore has no real need to
>> >> send spies into Mordor to examine troop dispositions etc when he can see
>> >> for himself.
>> >
>> > But *can* Denethor see for himself?
>>
>> And does he really have the right to use it? I thought part of the cause of
>> his madness was that he didn't have that right.
>
> No, he had the right. The hereditary Stewards were deputies of the
> King, empowered to act for him in his absence.
>
> I can't remember off hand, and IDHTBIFOM, but did _Saruman_ have the
> right? He was installed in Isengard by the Steward, who had the
> right to dispose of the royal domain as he saw fit, so I think the
> answer is Yes; but I have a dim memory that Tolkien said somewhere
> that Saruman did not have the right to use the Stone.

Three possibilities

1. The right to use the stones must be specifically delegated.
It is entirely possibly the steward did not know a stone was still there
and did not give Saruman permission to use it.

2. The right to use the stones must be specifically delegated. The
stewards did know the stone was there but did not give permission to use
it. Remember no steward (or even king) had used a stone since Minas Ithil
had fallen and its stone taken so they might not have considered that
Saruman would be foolhardy as to want to use it.

3. The stewards by right of office can use the stones but they can't
delegate it to others. The latter right is reserved for the heirs of
Elendil. As a parallel example, Stewards can give away land but only
until the king returns who can then revoke the permission; only a king can
permanently give a part of Gondor or Arnor away (as Aragorn did with Rohan
when he confirmed the gift of Cirion). Similarly only a king might be
able to give permission to use the stone.


--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Steve Morrison wrote:
> Larry Swain wrote:
>
>> Derek Broughton wrote:
>>
>>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:33:49 +0100 from Jamie Armstrong
>>>> <J.D.Armstrong.TakeThisOut@durham.ac.uk>:
>>>>
>>>>> I think Matthew's point is that Sauron knows that Denethor has a
>>>>> palantir (and the right to use it), and therefore has no real need to
>>>>> send spies into Mordor to examine troop dispositions etc when he
>>>>> can see
>>>>> for himself.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But *can* Denethor see for himself?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And does he really have the right to use it? I thought part of the
>>> cause of
>>> his madness was that he didn't have that right.
>>>
>>
>> I don't know about the madness, but while he could use the stone,
>> Aragorn and the heirs Isildur are the only ones with the right...as
>> Aragorn suggests after he has wrested the Orthanc stone from Sauron
>> and revealed himself.
>
>
> But the essay on the Palantíri says the right to use them could be
> delegated, and in fact specifically says Denethor had such delegated
> authority. /UT/ pp. 407-8:

Point.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Stan Brown wrote:

> Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:24:07 GMT from Sean_Q_ <nospam RemoveThis @no.sapm>:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> > Sting wasn't a "magic sword"
>>
>> Sting had "sufficiently advanced technology" (which is
>> indistinguishable from magic) to emit blue photons
>> in the presence of orcs.
>
> Right, but so did every Elvish blade.

In't that the point though? Sauron believes there are Elvish spies - and
the fact that somebody has a "magic" (I agree with Sean, emitting blue
photons is surely magic) sword confirms that fact, because only Elves and
wizards have such swords.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
news:MPG.22f42bbbb05f4a4898b73e@news.individual.net...

[snip]

> I can't remember off hand, and IDHTBIFOM, but did _Saruman_ have the
> right? He was installed in Isengard by the Steward, who had the
> right to dispose of the royal domain as he saw fit, so I think the
> answer is Yes; but I have a dim memory that Tolkien said somewhere
> that Saruman did not have the right to use the Stone.

As I recall, no one thought of the fact that there was still a palantír in
Orthanc when Saruman was given the keys to it. I believe that if the Steward
of Gondor hade remembered it, he would have removed the stone. It should be
remembered that no Steward before Denethor looked in a palantír; they migth
have had some kind of right to do so as the vicars of the Kings, but it was
obviously not a wise thing to do. One gets the impression that only a true
heir of Elendil, and one with unusual strenght of will at that, could wrest
the palantír away from Sauron.
We are told that Saruman "discovered" the palantír in Orthanc. I believe
the Steward would have told him about the palantír if he had remembered it
and regarded it as proper for Saruman to look in it.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Sean_Q_" <nospam RemoveThis @no.sapm> skrev i meddelandet
news:bToik.134316$gc5.1248@pd7urf2no...

[snip]

> Sting had "sufficiently advanced technology" (which is
> indistinguishable from magic) to emit blue photons
> in the presence of orcs.

Do I detect a fellow "Civilization" addict?

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> "Sean_Q_" <nospam.RemoveThis@no.sapm> skrev i meddelandet
> news:bToik.134316$gc5.1248@pd7urf2no...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Sting had "sufficiently advanced technology" (which is
>> indistinguishable from magic) to emit blue photons
>> in the presence of orcs.
>
> Do I detect a fellow "Civilization" addict?

It's simply Clarke's Law, coined long before Civilization (the game, not the
social structure).
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking?