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Next: 'JRRT Architect of Middle Earth' question
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External
Since: Aug 28, 2007
Posts: 55
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:54 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)
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Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Sean_Q_" <nospam.RemoveThis@no.sapm> skrev i meddelandet
> news:bToik.134316$gc5.1248@pd7urf2no...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Sting had "sufficiently advanced technology" (which is
>> indistinguishable from magic) to emit blue photons
>> in the presence of orcs.
>
>
> Do I detect a fellow "Civilization" addict?
>
> Öjevind
COunt me in there! |
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External
Since: Jan 01, 2004
Posts: 626
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:27 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jan 01, 2004
Posts: 626
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:29 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:49:46 -0300 from Derek Broughton
<news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>
> > Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:24:07 GMT from Sean_Q_ <nospam.RemoveThis@no.sapm>:
> >> Stan Brown wrote:
> >>
> >> > Sting wasn't a "magic sword"
> >>
> >> Sting had "sufficiently advanced technology" (which is
> >> indistinguishable from magic) to emit blue photons
> >> in the presence of orcs.
> >
> > Right, but so did every Elvish blade.
>
> In't that the point though? Sauron believes there are Elvish spies - and
> the fact that somebody has a "magic" (I agree with Sean, emitting blue
> photons is surely magic) sword confirms that fact, because only Elves and
> wizards have such swords.
In our world, a glowing sword would be magic, but not in Middle-
earth. There, it's just how things work, like bread that doesn't go
stale as long as it's wrapped in leaves.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Jul 26, 2008
Posts: 14
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown DeleteThis @fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
> news:MPG.22f42bbbb05f4a4898b73e@news.individual.net...
>
> [snip]
>
>> I can't remember off hand, and IDHTBIFOM, but did _Saruman_ have the
>> right? He was installed in Isengard by the Steward, who had the
>> right to dispose of the royal domain as he saw fit, so I think the
>> answer is Yes; but I have a dim memory that Tolkien said somewhere
>> that Saruman did not have the right to use the Stone.
>
> As I recall, no one thought of the fact that there was still a palantír
> in Orthanc when Saruman was given the keys to it. I believe that if the
> Steward of Gondor hade remembered it, he would have removed the stone.
Not if he knew that Saruman was of the Maiar.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The bright critics assembled in this volume will doubtless show, in
their sophisticated and ingenious new ways, that, just as /Pooh/ is
suffused with humanism, our humanism itself, at this late date, has
become full of /Pooh./"
-- Frederick Crews. "Postmodern Pooh", Preface >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Jul 26, 2008
Posts: 14
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:05 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Stan Brown wrote:
> Sat, 26 Jul 2008 15:51:36 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
> <bredband.net DeleteThis @ojevind.lang>:
>> I believe that if the Steward
>> of Gondor had remembered it, he would have removed the stone.
> [from Isengard]
>
> This reminds me of something I've never understood. We're told that
> one of the chief causes of the wars (plural) among the North-kingdoms
> was the desire to possess Amon Sul with its Stone. Why couldn't the
> King who first had possession of it just move it to a location
> further from the border? After all, the Stones weren't immovable.
> IIRC Arvedui took the three Stones of the North onto his ship, and
> they were lost beneath the waves.
There would seem to be some evidence that the Palantiri work better in a
tower.
--
John W. Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
-- Rupert Goodwins >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Feb 22, 2004
Posts: 75
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:15 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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External
Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 263
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 6:26 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Stan Brown wrote:
> Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:49:46 -0300 from Derek Broughton
> <news.TakeThisOut@pointerstop.ca>:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>> > Fri, 25 Jul 2008 18:24:07 GMT from Sean_Q_ <nospam.TakeThisOut@no.sapm>:
>> >> Stan Brown wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > Sting wasn't a "magic sword"
>> >>
>> >> Sting had "sufficiently advanced technology" (which is
>> >> indistinguishable from magic) to emit blue photons
>> >> in the presence of orcs.
>> >
>> > Right, but so did every Elvish blade.
>>
>> In't that the point though? Sauron believes there are Elvish spies - and
>> the fact that somebody has a "magic" (I agree with Sean, emitting blue
>> photons is surely magic) sword confirms that fact, because only Elves and
>> wizards have such swords.
>
> In our world, a glowing sword would be magic, but not in Middle-
> earth. There, it's just how things work, like bread that doesn't go
> stale as long as it's wrapped in leaves.
Which seems exactly the sort of thing described as being the magic of Elves.
If it was merely technological, swords made by Men would glow too - after a
few thousand years, Men would be certain to have broken the patent.
--
derek >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 263
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:51 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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John W Kennedy wrote:
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>> "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
>> news:MPG.22f42bbbb05f4a4898b73e@news.individual.net...
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> I can't remember off hand, and IDHTBIFOM, but did _Saruman_ have the
>>> right? He was installed in Isengard by the Steward, who had the
>>> right to dispose of the royal domain as he saw fit, so I think the
>>> answer is Yes; but I have a dim memory that Tolkien said somewhere
>>> that Saruman did not have the right to use the Stone.
>>
>> As I recall, no one thought of the fact that there was still a palantír
>> in Orthanc when Saruman was given the keys to it. I believe that if the
>> Steward of Gondor hade remembered it, he would have removed the stone.
>
> Not if he knew that Saruman was of the Maiar.
Sauron was of the Maiar, too. That doesn't seem enough reason to let him
use the Palantir
--
derek >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Aug 05, 2006
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:14 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Glenn Holliday wrote:
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>
>> Do I detect a fellow "Civilization" addict?
>
> Biased more in favor of the board game than of the computer variant.
>
> But "sufficiently advanced technology" is by Arthur C. Clarke, 1973.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
>
Hm, the date should be earlier than 1973! Clarke's laws are from
/Profiles of the Future/, which was first published in the early
1960s -- 1973 was merely the date of the revised edition. >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 263
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Steve Morrison wrote:
> Glenn Holliday wrote:
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>>
>>> Do I detect a fellow "Civilization" addict?
>>
>> Biased more in favor of the board game than of the computer variant.
>>
>> But "sufficiently advanced technology" is by Arthur C. Clarke, 1973.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
>>
>
> Hm, the date should be earlier than 1973! Clarke's laws are from
> /Profiles of the Future/, which was first published in the early
> 1960s -- 1973 was merely the date of the revised edition.
Oh, that's good. I said well before "Civilization", not realizing there was
a board game before the computer game. When Glenn said 1973, I thought it
should have been earlier. Since I only came across Clarke in 1970 or so,
1973 was possible, but I was still pretty sure it was earlier.
--
derek >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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Since: Aug 05, 2006
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 9:42 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Derek Broughton wrote:
> Steve Morrison wrote:
>
>> Glenn Holliday wrote:
>>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>>> Do I detect a fellow "Civilization" addict?
>>> Biased more in favor of the board game than of the computer variant.
>>>
>>> But "sufficiently advanced technology" is by Arthur C. Clarke, 1973.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
>>>
>> Hm, the date should be earlier than 1973! Clarke's laws are from
>> /Profiles of the Future/, which was first published in the early
>> 1960s -- 1973 was merely the date of the revised edition.
>
> Oh, that's good. I said well before "Civilization", not realizing there was
> a board game before the computer game. When Glenn said 1973, I thought it
> should have been earlier. Since I only came across Clarke in 1970 or so,
> 1973 was possible, but I was still pretty sure it was earlier.
As I recall it, he originally called only the 1st law "Clarke's law",
but the editor of the French edition surprised him by calling the
"limits of the possible" maxim "Clarke's 2nd Law", and in a later
printing, Clarke himself decided to call it that and add the 3rd law.
I'm not really sure just when this happened, and can't be altogether
sure it wasn't in 1973. I do know that the first publication of the
book was in 1962. Does anyone out there have an old copy? >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Mar 12, 2008
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 10:50 pm
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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amorphous999 wrote:
> One of the things that haven't figured out about LOTR is Sauron's reaction
> to the capture and escape of Frodo from Cirith Ungol. What did Sauron
> think happened there? What conclusion did he come to as to why Frodo was
> there in the first place? As far as I can tell, he knew 1 or 2 people,
> (probably hobbits) had tried to get into Mordor. One had been captured and
> had escaped. Frodo had been carrying a _very_ expensive chain mail jacket
> and a magic sword.
>
> Are there any previous discussions on this question?
>
> amorphous
What Sauron could not and would not think was that anyone
would attempt to destroy the One Ring. He was so certain of
its corrupting power, that he was too sure that it would be
brought to Gondor in a vain attempt to thwart him.
Therefore, while spies might try to test his borders as he
was testing those of others, none of these "spies"" could
possibly be carrying the ring, the only thing that could
possibly cause him harm, and then only if destroyed.
To quote from The Princess Bride, "It is inconceivable!"
Francis A. Miniter >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Jul 26, 2008
Posts: 14
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 12:14 am
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Derek Broughton wrote:
> John W Kennedy wrote:
>
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>> "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
>>> news:MPG.22f42bbbb05f4a4898b73e@news.individual.net...
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> I can't remember off hand, and IDHTBIFOM, but did _Saruman_ have the
>>>> right? He was installed in Isengard by the Steward, who had the
>>>> right to dispose of the royal domain as he saw fit, so I think the
>>>> answer is Yes; but I have a dim memory that Tolkien said somewhere
>>>> that Saruman did not have the right to use the Stone.
>>> As I recall, no one thought of the fact that there was still a palantír
>>> in Orthanc when Saruman was given the keys to it. I believe that if the
>>> Steward of Gondor hade remembered it, he would have removed the stone.
>> Not if he knew that Saruman was of the Maiar.
>
> Sauron was of the Maiar, too. That doesn't seem enough reason to let him
> use the Palantir
The Stewards of Gondor, to a man, knew that Sauron was evil. They did
not know about Saruman.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and
Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes.
The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being
corrected."
-- G. K. Chesterton >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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Since: Feb 22, 2004
Posts: 75
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:09 am
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Steve Morrison wrote:
> Glenn Holliday wrote:
>> But "sufficiently advanced technology" is by Arthur C. Clarke, 1973.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
>>
>
> Hm, the date should be earlier than 1973! Clarke's laws are from
> /Profiles of the Future/, which was first published in the early
> 1960s -- 1973 was merely the date of the revised edition.
I got 1973 from the Wikipedia article as the date Clarke added the
third law to his earlier Clarke's Laws. I'd be happy to hear if
anybody has more correct information.
--
Glenn Holliday holliday.DeleteThis@acm.org >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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External
Since: Feb 22, 2004
Posts: 75
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Sun Jul 27, 2008 3:11 am
Post subject: Re: What was Sauron thinking? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Francis A. Miniter wrote:
> What Sauron could not and would not think was that anyone would attempt
> to destroy the One Ring. ...
>
> To quote from The Princess Bride, "It is inconceivable!"
In Sauron's case, the reply is probably also appropriate.
And I'm probably misquoting: "I don't think that word means
what you think it means."
It's hard to reconcile Sauron's intelligence with such a
total blindness in this area. But that's the way Tolkien
wrote him.
--
Glenn Holliday holliday.DeleteThis@acm.org >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? |
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