What was Sauron thinking?

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
news:MPG.22f77f56b5be3b8998b749@news.individual.net...
> Mon, 28 Jul 2008 12:57:57 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
> <bredband.net.DeleteThis@ojevind.lang>:
>> But on the ride to Gondor, he tells Pippin about the seven stones. He
>> knows
>> where they had originally been located; he mentions that too. Absent any
>> information that the Orthanc stone had been removed, he should have
>> presumed
>> that it was still there.
>
> Really? Remember that it had been put there three thousand years
> earlier, and had not been used for many lifetimes. It seems much more
> likely that it had not been used because it had been moved and lost.
> Even when Gandalf *saw* the Palantír, he did not recognize it. After
> leaving Isengard, he tells Merry, "There was some link between
> Isengard and Mordor, which I have not yet fathomed. How they
> exchanged news I am not sure; but they did so."
>
> I think that is quite reasonable, that he did not *expect* it to be
> there. And when not in use, a Palantír is not exactly recognizable.

I think it quite reasonable that he would make it his business to know about
a matter such as the whereabouts of the Palantíri. That he didn't think of
the Palantíri is surprising.

>> I think this is all of a piece with the claims that there is
>> nothing odd about Gandalf apparently having no idea who Boromir is
>> when Boromir turns up at the Council of Elrond. Denethor and his
>> sons were major players, and Gandalf had been to Gondor several
>> times. o fopcurse he must have known who Boromir was.
>
> Do we definitely know that Gandalf had no idea who Boromir was? But
> if he didn't, is that so unbelievable? As an adult, Boromir was
> almost constantly campaigning and so maybe he was never at Minas
> Tirith at the same time as Gandalf.

Elrond introduces Boromir as "a man of Gondor", without saying a word about
him being the son of Denethor the Rulign Steward. That's simply inane.
Everyone else is Gimli son of Glóin, Frodo son of Drogo, legolas son of
Thranduil of Mirkwood and so on. As for Gandalf maybe never having met
Boromir, even if that was the case, one would definitely expect him to say:
"Boromir from Gondor? Surely that must be Denethor's son?" And Elrond not
introducing him as such is, given the careful introduction of everybody
else, nonsense.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.RemoveThis@fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
> news:MPG.22f77f56b5be3b8998b749@news.individual.net...

>> Do we definitely know that Gandalf had no idea who Boromir was? But
>> if he didn't, is that so unbelievable? As an adult, Boromir was
>> almost constantly campaigning and so maybe he was never at Minas
>> Tirith at the same time as Gandalf.
>
> Elrond introduces Boromir as "a man of Gondor", without saying a word
> about him being the son of Denethor the Rulign Steward. That's simply
> inane. Everyone else is Gimli son of Glóin, Frodo son of Drogo, legolas
> son of Thranduil of Mirkwood and so on. As for Gandalf maybe never having
> met Boromir, even if that was the case, one would definitely expect him to
> say: "Boromir from Gondor? Surely that must be Denethor's son?" And Elrond
> not introducing him as such is, given the careful introduction of
> everybody else, nonsense.

This has always seemed so obvious to me that I never even thought about it.
Yes, it makes no sense that neither Elrond nor Gandalf would know who he
was, therefore we can only presume that they both knew exactly who he was,
and wished not to put that information in front of the council prematurely.
I would think, because to have the son of the Steward call for help would
give an implicit tone of command, whereas a "Man of Gondor" could beg.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

An additional point:

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
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[snip]

> I think that is quite reasonable, that he did not *expect* it to be
> there. And when not in use, a Palantír is not exactly recognizable.

Except that when Gandalf saw the Palantír, he clearly recognized it for what
it was and "cried sharply" to Pippin to hand it over to him. He then
carefully wrapped it in a piece of cloth.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:50:56 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
<bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang>:
> Except that when Gandalf saw the Palantír, he clearly recognized it
> for what it was and "cried sharply" to Pippin to hand it over to
> him. He then carefully wrapped it in a piece of cloth.

Reread the chapter. It's possible that he recognized it at once, but
it's also quite possible that he didn't know what it was until after
Pippin had used it.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Emma Pease" <er_pease DeleteThis @yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:slrng8pm2h.hbb.er_pease@hedge06.Stanford.EDU...

[snip]

> I suspect the palantiri had been forgotten about except by people who were
> actively looking for objects (such as Saruman) or who were responsible for
> them (such as Denethor). Gandalf's area of study had not been Gondor or
> objects. Knowing where the stones were was something he might never had
> learned or thought important (it was Saruman's responsibility to report on
> possibly useful objects as well as ring lore and Gandalf was probably
> content with that until too late). After Saruman's treason had become
> apparent, Gandalf never visited Minas Tirith, the one place that might
> have had a list of Orthanc's contents, until the palantir had been
> revealed. If Boromir had been more of a student of lore (like his brother
> and father), he might have known about the Orthanc palantir and been able
> to tell during the prep for the trip from Rivendell, but, I very much
> doubt he knew anything about the contents of Orthanc except that Saruman
> was there.
>
> Remember there were probably other objects of wonder in Orthanc (and Minas
> Tirith) that the readers never learned about because they had no relevance
> to the plot.

Still, Gandalf recites an old verse about "Nine ships and seven stars and
one white tree". The palantíri were clearly regarded as very important - a
gift from the Elves of Eressëa. Not bothering to keep track of them is
pretty neglectful in my opinion.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Emma Pease" <er_pease.RemoveThis@yahoo.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:slrng8pm2h.hbb.er_pease@hedge06.Stanford.EDU...
>
> [snip]
>
>> I suspect the palantiri had been forgotten about except by people who
>> were
>> actively looking for objects (such as Saruman) or who were responsible
>> for
>> them (such as Denethor). Gandalf's area of study had not been Gondor or
>> objects. Knowing where the stones were was something he might never had
>> learned or thought important (it was Saruman's responsibility to
>> report on
>> possibly useful objects as well as ring lore and Gandalf was probably
>> content with that until too late). After Saruman's treason had become
>> apparent, Gandalf never visited Minas Tirith, the one place that might
>> have had a list of Orthanc's contents, until the palantir had been
>> revealed. If Boromir had been more of a student of lore (like his
>> brother
>> and father), he might have known about the Orthanc palantir and been able
>> to tell during the prep for the trip from Rivendell, but, I very much
>> doubt he knew anything about the contents of Orthanc except that Saruman
>> was there.
>>
>> Remember there were probably other objects of wonder in Orthanc (and
>> Minas
>> Tirith) that the readers never learned about because they had no
>> relevance
>> to the plot.
>
>
> Still, Gandalf recites an old verse about "Nine ships and seven stars
> and one white tree". The palantíri were clearly regarded as very
> important - a gift from the Elves of Eressëa. Not bothering to keep
> track of them is pretty neglectful in my opinion.

And isn't that exactly how Gondor is described: having grown neglectful
and faded over the course of 3000 years....why even the White Tree had
been allowed to die, a descendant from the trees of the Blessed Realm in
the First Age no less! A descendent of the White Tree in Numenor!
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Thomas Koenig" <tkoenig.DeleteThis@netcologne.de> skrev i meddelandet
news:slrng8rbkk.6fa.tkoenig@meiner.onlinehome.de...

[snip]

>> I think this is all of a piece with the claims that there is nothing
>> odd
>> about Gandalf apparently having no idea who Boromir is when Boromir turns
>> up
>> at the Council of Elrond.
>
> Gandalf was _very_ good at what not to say, and when not to say it.
> This might be one example.

Why? Boromir had come to Rivendell as the son of Denethor. He is invited to
the Council, where if course his identity has to be revealed, because
otherwise there is no point in him being at the Council. "Obscure strangers
and stray dogs welcome to this Council" was NOT the motto of the meeting.
Even Sam was chided for attending it without permission. Yet neither Elrond
nor Gandalf seem to have a clue as to who he is. Legolas is not briefly
introduced as "an Elf from Mirkwood". Gimli is not itnroduced as "a Dwarf
from the Lonely Mountain".

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Thomas Koenig" <tkoenig RemoveThis @netcologne.de> skrev i meddelandet
> news:slrng8rbkk.6fa.tkoenig@meiner.onlinehome.de...
>
> [snip]
>
>>> I think this is all of a piece with the claims that there is
>>> nothing odd
>>> about Gandalf apparently having no idea who Boromir is when Boromir
>>> turns up
>>> at the Council of Elrond.
>>
>>
>> Gandalf was _very_ good at what not to say, and when not to say it.
>> This might be one example.
>
>
> Why? Boromir had come to Rivendell as the son of Denethor. He is invited
> to the Council, where if course his identity has to be revealed, because
> otherwise there is no point in him being at the Council. "Obscure
> strangers and stray dogs welcome to this Council" was NOT the motto of
> the meeting. Even Sam was chided for attending it without permission.
> Yet neither Elrond nor Gandalf seem to have a clue as to who he is.
> Legolas is not briefly introduced as "an Elf from Mirkwood". Gimli is
> not itnroduced as "a Dwarf from the Lonely Mountain".
>
> Öjevind
-
Yes, but Legolas and Gimli have been around awhile and were at the
banquet the evening before. Boromir wasn't. Gandalf was with Frodo and
the hobbits when Boromir arrived, hence the necessity of introduction.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
news:MPG.22f84613b1067ea098b74c@news.individual.net...

[snip]

> Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron were originally beings of the same
> order, but they had followed very different paths. Anyway, I'm not
> sure the Stewards knew that Sauron was a Maia, much less that he and
> the Wizards had the same origin.

I think they must have known that Sauron, a former servant of Morgoth, was a
fallen Maia. They were familiar with the lore of the Eldest Days. However, I
agree about the Istari. We are told that "no one knew wher they came from".

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:18:05 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
<bredband.net.RemoveThis@ojevind.lang>:
> I think they must have known that Sauron, a former servant of
> Morgoth, was a fallen Maia. They were familiar with the lore of the
> Eldest Days.

Well yes, but so were the Elves of the Second Age -- much *more*
familiar, in fact. And they did not know what Sauron was. Neither
did the Men of Númenor, who were also much more familiar with the
lore of Elder Days than the Men of Gondor.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> "Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
> news:MPG.22f84613b1067ea098b74c@news.individual.net...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron were originally beings of the same
>> order, but they had followed very different paths. Anyway, I'm not
>> sure the Stewards knew that Sauron was a Maia, much less that he and
>> the Wizards had the same origin.
>
> I think they must have known that Sauron, a former servant of Morgoth, was
> a fallen Maia. They were familiar with the lore of the Eldest Days.
> However, I agree about the Istari. We are told that "no one knew wher they
> came from".

Yet Gandalf makes no attempt to hide the fact that he once lived in "the
West" and the Elves know the Istari came from overseas. Nobody knows
_precisely_ what they are, but they surely don't think they're ordinary
men, or elves, either.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Stan Brown wrote:
> Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:18:05 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
> <bredband.net DeleteThis @ojevind.lang>:
>
>>I think they must have known that Sauron, a former servant of
>>Morgoth, was a fallen Maia. They were familiar with the lore of the
>>Eldest Days.
>
>
> Well yes, but so were the Elves of the Second Age -- much *more*
> familiar, in fact. And they did not know what Sauron was.

Yes they did, when they saw through his disguises.


Neither
> did the Men of Númenor, who were also much more familiar with the
> lore of Elder Days than the Men of Gondor.
>
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Larry Swain" <giles DeleteThis @poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
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[snip]

>> Do I detect a fellow "Civilization" addict?
>>
>> Öjevind
>
> COunt me in there!

Did you know that this autumn, Firaxis Games will release "Colonization"
again? It's basically the old game, but using the same engine as "Civ IV"
and better graphics (better than Civ IV, actually), and some bugs and clunky
items removed. There are also a few tweaks, such as the introduction of
cultural borders. That means an end to that silly feature where your rivals
turned most of their colonists into dragoons who surrounded your cities in
the hope of provoking you into attacking them. There are now 52 Founding
Fathers, but you go around earning them in a somewhat different way, and
only one of the four powers can own any given FF.
The colonizing powers are the same as in the original game: the English,
the French, the Dutch and the Spaniards. However, you now can choose between
two different leaders for each power. The English ones are George Washington
(who gives martial benefits) and John Adams (who gives economical benefits).

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking?