What was Sauron thinking?

"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
news:MPG.22f8bbe49522bee298b755@news.individual.net...
> Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:50:56 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
> <bredband.net.DeleteThis@ojevind.lang>:
>> Except that when Gandalf saw the Palantír, he clearly recognized it
>> for what it was and "cried sharply" to Pippin to hand it over to
>> him. He then carefully wrapped it in a piece of cloth.
>
> Reread the chapter. It's possible that he recognized it at once, but
> it's also quite possible that he didn't know what it was until after
> Pippin had used it.

I don't believe that for a moment, and neither should you.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Derek Broughton" <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
news:5581252.8erNonUX47@cedar.serverforest.com...

[snip]

> This has always seemed so obvious to me that I never even thought about
> it.
> Yes, it makes no sense that neither Elrond nor Gandalf would know who he
> was, therefore we can only presume that they both knew exactly who he was,
> and wished not to put that information in front of the council
> prematurely.
> I would think, because to have the son of the Steward call for help would
> give an implicit tone of command, whereas a "Man of Gondor" could beg.

"Prematurely?" Derek, why postpone the introduction for an hour or whatever
it would be? And it was only as the son of the Stewd of Gondor that Boromir
was in a position to beg. And when he begged, if that is the word, it was in
precisly that capacity, after having told the council who he was.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> "Derek Broughton" <news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
> news:5581252.8erNonUX47@cedar.serverforest.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>> This has always seemed so obvious to me that I never even thought about
>> it.
>> Yes, it makes no sense that neither Elrond nor Gandalf would know who he
>> was, therefore we can only presume that they both knew exactly who he
>> was, and wished not to put that information in front of the council
>> prematurely.
>> I would think, because to have the son of the Steward call for help would
>> give an implicit tone of command, whereas a "Man of Gondor" could beg.
>
> "Prematurely?" Derek, why postpone the introduction for an hour or
> whatever it would be? And it was only as the son of the Stewd of Gondor
> that Boromir was in a position to beg. And when he begged, if that is the
> word, it was in precisly that capacity, after having told the council who
> he was.

Well, any emissary of Gondor could have asked for help. It seems to me that
for the Heir to the Steward to call for aid would be tantamount to claiming
fealty from all those residing in Gondor's ancestral lands.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Larry Swain" <giles.RemoveThis@poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:SL2dnZgKSJjjuxLVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com...
> Öjevind Lång wrote:

[snip]

>> Still, Gandalf recites an old verse about "Nine ships and seven stars and
>> one white tree". The palantíri were clearly regarded as very important -
>> a gift from the Elves of Eressëa. Not bothering to keep track of them is
>> pretty neglectful in my opinion.
>
> And isn't that exactly how Gondor is described: having grown neglectful
> and faded over the course of 3000 years....why even the White Tree had
> been allowed to die, a descendant from the trees of the Blessed Realm in
> the First Age no less! A descendent of the White Tree in Numenor!

I don't think the White Tree was "allowed to die"; it died of old age, and
the dead tree was kept in its place for many centuries, with great
veneration. And when Aragorn discovers a seedling of it, Gandalf tells him
that he and his descendants must keep an eye open, for one day that one will
die too and have to be repalced in its turn.
It is inconevable that the great families of Gondor, at the very least,
would have forgotten such things as the seven stones and the White Tree of
Valinor or Beren and Lúthien.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Larry Swain" <giles.RemoveThis@poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:SL2dnZkKSJiHuxLVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com...

[snip]

> Yes, but Legolas and Gimli have been around awhile and were at the banquet
> the evening before. Boromir wasn't. Gandalf was with Frodo and the
> hobbits when Boromir arrived, hence the necessity of introduction.

So why not introduce Boromir properly at the meeting as "Boromir, son of
Denethor the ruling Steward of Gondor?" Why behave as if was just some guy
from off the street?

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Derek Broughton" <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
news:2501948.y8iDBdbB1C@cedar.serverforest.com...

[snip]

> Yet Gandalf makes no attempt to hide the fact that he once lived in "the
> West" and the Elves know the Istari came from overseas. Nobody knows
> _precisely_ what they are, but they surely don't think they're ordinary
> men, or elves, either.

Yes, but knowing they come from overseas isn't the same as knowing they are
Maiar. Though I can't help suspecting that Círdan did. He gave his Great
Ring to Gandalf. Perhaps he knew or suspected the truth because he was in
contact with Ulmo, who told him much.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

> "Derek Broughton" <news.DeleteThis@pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
> news:2501948.y8iDBdbB1C@cedar.serverforest.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Yet Gandalf makes no attempt to hide the fact that he once lived in "the
>> West" and the Elves know the Istari came from overseas. Nobody knows
>> _precisely_ what they are, but they surely don't think they're ordinary
>> men, or elves, either.
>
> Yes, but knowing they come from overseas isn't the same as knowing they
> are
> Maiar. Though I can't help suspecting that Círdan did. He gave his Great
> Ring to Gandalf. Perhaps he knew or suspected the truth because he was in
> contact with Ulmo, who told him much.

I doubt anyone really _knew_, but I can't help thinking that many of the
wise among Men and Elves had to have a pretty good idea (especially
Galadriel, who could have even known them before the Exile). They weren't
Men, they weren't Elves, they certainly weren't Orcs, Dwarves, Hobbits,
Trolls or Ents.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Larry Swain" <giles DeleteThis @poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
news:SL2dnZoKSJh0uhLVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com...

[snip]

>> Did you know that this autumn, Firaxis Games will release "Colonization"
>> again? It's basically the old game, but using the same engine as "Civ IV"
>> and better graphics (better than Civ IV, actually), and some bugs and
>> clunky items removed. There are also a few tweaks, such as the
>> introduction of cultural borders. That means an end to that silly feature
>> where your rivals turned most of their colonists into dragoons who
>> surrounded your cities in the hope of provoking you into attacking them.
>> There are now 52 Founding Fathers, but you go around earning them in a
>> somewhat different way, and only one of the four powers can own any given
>> FF.
>> The colonizing powers are the same as in the original game: the English,
>> the French, the Dutch and the Spaniards. However, you now can choose
>> between two different leaders for each power. The English ones are George
>> Washington (who gives martial benefits) and John Adams (who gives
>> economical benefits).
>>
>> Öjevind
>
> Sounds v cool

I'm really looking forward to it. I prefer playing as the Dutch because of
the economical benefits that gives. (They have kept the nationality-specific
abilities in.) The two Dutch leaders are Peter Stuyvesant and Adriaen van
der Donck.

Öjevind
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind wrote:
>"Stan Brown" skrev i meddelandet
>> Reread the chapter. It's possible that he recognized it at once, but
>> it's also quite possible that he didn't know what it was until after
>> Pippin had used it.

> I don't believe that for a moment, and neither should you.

I agree with Stan that the chapter can be read to say that Gandalf
didn't recognise the Palantir straight away.

Two bits that strongly suggest this are:

<< I did not at once guess the nature of the Stone. Then I was weary,
and as I lay pondering it, sleep overcame me. Now I know! >>

And

<< I had considered whether or not to probe this Stone myself to find
its uses >>


But in the first edition, the first bit reads

<< I did not guess the nature of the stone until it was too late. Only
now have I become sure of it. >>

so I think that when Tolkien made the revision he wanted to step back
from this idea at least a little.

-M-
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Glenn Holliday wrote:
> Steve Morrison wrote:
>> Glenn Holliday wrote:
>>> But "sufficiently advanced technology" is by Arthur C. Clarke, 1973.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clarke%27s_three_laws
>>>
>>
>> Hm, the date should be earlier than 1973! Clarke's laws are from
>> /Profiles of the Future/, which was first published in the early
>> 1960s -- 1973 was merely the date of the revised edition.
>
> I got 1973 from the Wikipedia article as the date Clarke added the
> third law to his earlier Clarke's Laws. I'd be happy to hear if
> anybody has more correct information.
>

I'm no longer sure -- my old copy of /Profiles of the Future/ did
contain the Third Law, but it may have been post-1973. It's possible
that the Wikipedia article is entirely correct; the question is
whether the statement of Clarke's 3rd Law came in with that edition,
or only the numbering.

(My current copy dates only from the 1980s; it's the edition with
a greatly expanded chapter on nanotechnology.)
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

(snip)

> I think this is all of a piece with the claims that there is nothing
> odd about Gandalf apparently having no idea who Boromir is when Boromir
> turns up at the Council of Elrond. Denethor and his sons were major
> players, and Gandalf had been to Gondor several times. o fopcurse he
> must have known who Boromir was.
> IOW, Tolkien sometimes messed up. We all do.
>
> Öjevind

Well, okay, we may all have messed up at some time -- but is that any
reason we should be called "fopcurses"???

<ducks and covers>
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Larry Swain" <giles RemoveThis @poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:SL2dnZgKSJjjuxLVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Still, Gandalf recites an old verse about "Nine ships and seven stars
>>> and one white tree". The palantíri were clearly regarded as very
>>> important - a gift from the Elves of Eressëa. Not bothering to keep
>>> track of them is pretty neglectful in my opinion.
>>
>>
>> And isn't that exactly how Gondor is described: having grown
>> neglectful and faded over the course of 3000 years....why even the
>> White Tree had been allowed to die, a descendant from the trees of the
>> Blessed Realm in the First Age no less! A descendent of the White
>> Tree in Numenor!
>
>
> I don't think the White Tree was "allowed to die"; it died of old age,
> and the dead tree was kept in its place for many centuries, with great
> veneration. And when Aragorn discovers a seedling of it, Gandalf tells
> him that he and his descendants must keep an eye open, for one day that
> one will die too and have to be repalced in its turn.
> It is inconevable that the great families of Gondor, at the very least,
> would have forgotten such things as the seven stones and the White Tree
> of Valinor or Beren and Lúthien.

Of course its conceivable, for one thing they weren't widely known, not
even among the nobility. Secondly, those near the king who would know
had a tendency to die: wars, civil wars, etc...hard to pass on lore when
you're dead. Over time, they become just a rumor, a myth of better
days, and then become all but forgotten (when the king comes....) by a
few lore masters, like Denethor.

And if remembered, who knew of their distribution? Who knew of the
Orthanc stone at the time of Saruman's residence? The king? Maybe,
even probably, but the king's line died out....did he remember to share
that information with the Stewards? ANd were the Stewards able to
exercise enough control to find the other stones?
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Larry Swain" <giles.TakeThisOut@poetic.com> skrev i meddelandet
> news:SL2dnZkKSJiHuxLVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Yes, but Legolas and Gimli have been around awhile and were at the
>> banquet the evening before. Boromir wasn't. Gandalf was with Frodo
>> and the hobbits when Boromir arrived, hence the necessity of
>> introduction.
>
>
> So why not introduce Boromir properly at the meeting as "Boromir, son of
> Denethor the ruling Steward of Gondor?" Why behave as if was just some
> guy from off the street?
>
> Öjevind

All sorts of reasons are possible, but the text doesn't say, I can only
speculate.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking?