What was Sauron thinking?

Larry Swain <giles.TakeThisOut@poetic.com> wrote in
news:SL2dnZsKSJgwuhLVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com:

> Stan Brown wrote:
>> Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:18:05 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
>> <bredband.net.TakeThisOut@ojevind.lang>:
>>
>>>I think they must have known that Sauron, a former servant of
>>>Morgoth, was a fallen Maia. They were familiar with the lore of the
>>>Eldest Days.

Gandalf says that Sauron was not always evil and he was able to fool the
Elves for quite a while. Maybe it was a slow turning to evil, kind of like
what happens to Darth Vader.

>>
>>
>> Well yes, but so were the Elves of the Second Age -- much *more*
>> familiar, in fact. And they did not know what Sauron was.
>
> Yes they did, when they saw through his disguises.

IIRC, they didn't really figure out who he was until he created and put on
the One Ring. After that, it was splitsville .

>
>
> Neither
>> did the Men of Númenor, who were also much more familiar with the
>> lore of Elder Days than the Men of Gondor.
>>
>
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Glenn Holliday <holliday.DeleteThis@acm.org> wrote in
news:THRik.142$rb5.20@trnddc04:

> Francis A. Miniter wrote:
>> What Sauron could not and would not think was that anyone would
>> attempt to destroy the One Ring. ...
>>
>> To quote from The Princess Bride, "It is inconceivable!"
>
> In Sauron's case, the reply is probably also appropriate.
> And I'm probably misquoting: "I don't think that word means
> what you think it means."
>
> It's hard to reconcile Sauron's intelligence with such a
> total blindness in this area. But that's the way Tolkien
> wrote him.
>

I remember Galadriel's words, saying (roughly) that she understands
Sauron, but that Sauron doesn't understand her. Sauron had no idea what
transpired at the Council of Elrond. He is driven by a need for power
and he never shows the ability to see people otherwise. Every contact
with a representative of Sauron (Nazgul, Mouth of Sauron, etc.) is about
either intimidation or occasionally, bribery. He might just be
incapable of seeing others in any other way.

Sauron might also be driven by what happened at the end of the Second
Age, when an Alliance between Men and Elves defeated him. He may have
been most concerned with preventing that kind of alliance from
happening. Also, while Gandalf figured out after Pellenor Fields that
Sauron still had overwhelming military power, Sauron himself may not
have thought he did, particularly after learning of the existance of
Aragorn, the Rohirrim appearing out of nowhere to take his army by
surprise, the death of the Witch-King, and the appearance of the ghostly
OathBreakers, and a large army of his being annihilated. I can just
imagine that staff meeting. And all of this happening without the Ring
making an appearance. Imagine being Sauron and going months without
having any clear idea of where the ring is. And then at last figuring
out where the Ring is and thinking to yourself "It is inconceivable!".

amorphous
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Larry Swain wrote:

> Öjevind Lång wrote:

>> It is inconevable that the great families of Gondor, at the very least,
>> would have forgotten such things as the seven stones and the White Tree
>> of Valinor or Beren and Lúthien.
>
> Of course its conceivable, for one thing they weren't widely known, not
> even among the nobility. Secondly, those near the king who would know
> had a tendency to die: wars, civil wars, etc...hard to pass on lore when
> you're dead. Over time, they become just a rumor, a myth of better
> days, and then become all but forgotten (when the king comes....) by a
> few lore masters, like Denethor.

I agree - you have to remember that the timeline is greater than any
civilization that has existed on earth, except perhaps China's, and we
(including the Chinese) have nothing more than the most sketchy mythologies
of anything so ancient. Admittedly, the fact it helps that Gondor has
existed since the downfall of Numenor without being overrun by invaders,
and has maintained some relationships with Elves, but it's still an
incredible time for the memory of Men.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

amorphous999 wrote:
> Larry Swain <giles RemoveThis @poetic.com> wrote in
> news:SL2dnZsKSJgwuhLVnZ2dnUVZ_gidnZ2d@comcast.com:
>
>
>>Stan Brown wrote:
>>
>>>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 12:18:05 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
>>><bredband.net RemoveThis @ojevind.lang>:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think they must have known that Sauron, a former servant of
>>>>Morgoth, was a fallen Maia. They were familiar with the lore of the
>>>>Eldest Days.
>
>
> Gandalf says that Sauron was not always evil and he was able to fool the
> Elves for quite a while. Maybe it was a slow turning to evil, kind of like
> what happens to Darth Vader.
>
>
>>>
>>>Well yes, but so were the Elves of the Second Age -- much *more*
>>>familiar, in fact. And they did not know what Sauron was.
>>
>>Yes they did, when they saw through his disguises.
>
>
> IIRC, they didn't really figure out who he was until he created and put on
> the One Ring. After that, it was splitsville .

He was, until that time, in disguise and using a different name....I
forget now and am too lazy to go get Unfinished Tales.


>
>>
>> Neither
>>
>>>did the Men of Númenor, who were also much more familiar with the
>>>lore of Elder Days than the Men of Gondor.
>>>
>>
>
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

amorphous999 wrote:
> Glenn Holliday <holliday.RemoveThis@acm.org> wrote in
> news:THRik.142$rb5.20@trnddc04:
>
>
>>Francis A. Miniter wrote:
>>
>>>What Sauron could not and would not think was that anyone would
>>>attempt to destroy the One Ring. ...
>>>
>>>To quote from The Princess Bride, "It is inconceivable!"
>>
>>In Sauron's case, the reply is probably also appropriate.
>>And I'm probably misquoting: "I don't think that word means
>>what you think it means."
>>
>>It's hard to reconcile Sauron's intelligence with such a
>>total blindness in this area. But that's the way Tolkien
>>wrote him.
>>
>
>
> I remember Galadriel's words, saying (roughly) that she understands
> Sauron, but that Sauron doesn't understand her. Sauron had no idea what
> transpired at the Council of Elrond. He is driven by a need for power
> and he never shows the ability to see people otherwise. Every contact
> with a representative of Sauron (Nazgul, Mouth of Sauron, etc.) is about
> either intimidation or occasionally, bribery. He might just be
> incapable of seeing others in any other way.

Which Gandalf says at one point: that he carefully measures everyone and
everything, but only measured from his own desires projected onto them
(i. e. everyone wants power and will eventually seek to overthrow him).

>
> Sauron might also be driven by what happened at the end of the Second
> Age, when an Alliance between Men and Elves defeated him. He may have
> been most concerned with preventing that kind of alliance from
> happening. Also, while Gandalf figured out after Pellenor Fields that
> Sauron still had overwhelming military power, Sauron himself may not
> have thought he did, particularly after learning of the existance of
> Aragorn, the Rohirrim appearing out of nowhere to take his army by
> surprise, the death of the Witch-King, and the appearance of the ghostly
> OathBreakers, and a large army of his being annihilated. I can just
> imagine that staff meeting. And all of this happening without the Ring
> making an appearance. Imagine being Sauron and going months without
> having any clear idea of where the ring is. And then at last figuring
> out where the Ring is and thinking to yourself "It is inconceivable!".
>
> amorphous
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Öjevind Lång wrote:

>"Stan Brown" <the_stan_brown.DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> skrev i meddelandet
>news:MPG.22f8bbe49522bee298b755@news.individual.net...
>> Tue, 29 Jul 2008 11:50:56 +0200 from Öjevind Lång
>> <bredband.net.DeleteThis@ojevind.lang>:
>>> Except that when Gandalf saw the Palantír, he clearly recognized it
>>> for what it was and "cried sharply" to Pippin to hand it over to
>>> him. He then carefully wrapped it in a piece of cloth.
>>
>> Reread the chapter. It's possible that he recognized it at once, but
>> it's also quite possible that he didn't know what it was until after
>> Pippin had used it.
>
>I don't believe that for a moment, and neither should you.

"I have forgotten much that I thought I knew, and learned again much
that I had forgotten." Gandalf seemed a bit confused at first after
his death and resurrection (not too surprising, really). I do indeed
believe that he recognized only an object of depth and power in that
strange sphere that came crashing down from Orthanc. After "sleeping
on it" (literally!) he probably did know exactly what it was (after
Pippin's experience, it would have to have been obvious). But on first
sight? It is quite plausible to me that it might have been, as it
were, "on the tip of his tongue" but still elusive. I take him at his
word: he didn't recognize it (also note that he'd probably never seen
one).

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"Never let it be denied that I couldn't help but fail to disagree with
you less." [R H Draney]
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Tue, 29 Jul 2008 14:19:38 -0300 from Derek Broughton
<news.RemoveThis@pointerstop.ca>:
> Well, any emissary of Gondor could have asked for help. It seems to
> me that for the Heir to the Steward to call for aid would be
> tantamount to claiming fealty from all those residing in Gondor's
> ancestral lands.

But Eriador was not one of Gondor's ancestral lands. Remember that
the South-kingdom was the junior kingdom, not the senior. And in any
event Rivendell was never subject to any kingdom of Men.

In any event, it was clear from later in the story that Gondor did
not demand aid. Even when asking Théoden for help, where there were
solemn treaty obligations in place and Gondor had every right to
insist, the messenger *asked* rather than trying to *command*.

--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Larry Swain wrote:
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>> "Derek Broughton" <news DeleteThis @pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
>> news:5581252.8erNonUX47@cedar.serverforest.com...
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> This has always seemed so obvious to me that I never even thought
>>> about it.
>>> Yes, it makes no sense that neither Elrond nor Gandalf would know who he
>>> was, therefore we can only presume that they both knew exactly who he
>>> was,
>>> and wished not to put that information in front of the council
>>> prematurely.
>>> I would think, because to have the son of the Steward call for help
>>> would
>>> give an implicit tone of command, whereas a "Man of Gondor" could beg.
>>
>>
>> "Prematurely?" Derek, why postpone the introduction for an hour or
>> whatever it would be? And it was only as the son of the Stewd of
>> Gondor that Boromir was in a position to beg. And when he begged, if
>> that is the word, it was in precisly that capacity, after having told
>> the council who he was.
>>
>> Öjevind
>
> But he didn't come to beg...he in fact says just that, but rather to
> seek counsel and knowledge, and he needn't be Denethor's son to receive
> that at the Last Homely House.

During the Council Boromir himself mentions that his father was
Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith. But of course Tolkien made up the story
as he went along. When Aragorn first appeared in the Inn at Bree Tolkien
didn't know who he was and it was later that he made him the heir to the
thrones of Gondor and Arnor. It was at the Council that this is first
mentioned in the story but maybe Tolkien hadn't worked out why Aragorn
was a King in exile and what the relationship was between him and the
current rulers of Gondor. Therefore the position of Boromir is left
somewhat vague at the Council.
Jim
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Jim Harker wrote:

> Larry Swain wrote:
>>
>> But he didn't come to beg...he in fact says just that, but rather to
>> seek counsel and knowledge, and he needn't be Denethor's son to receive
>> that at the Last Homely House.

Well, as I said, I'd never really thought about this, and I still haven't
HTBIFOM since the thread started (I know, unforgivable...) but when Boromir
starts talking about how Gondor stands alone against Sauron, it sounds like
begging to me.

> During the Council Boromir himself mentions that his father was
> Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith. But of course Tolkien made up the story
> as he went along.

_Every_ author makes up a story as he goes along. Tolkien, otoh, was an
obsessive rewriter. If anybody could eliminate inconsistencies, it would
have been Tolkien. I just don't see this as a problem.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Jim Harker wrote:
>
>
> Larry Swain wrote:
>
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>
>>> "Derek Broughton" <news RemoveThis @pointerstop.ca> skrev i meddelandet
>>> news:5581252.8erNonUX47@cedar.serverforest.com...
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> This has always seemed so obvious to me that I never even thought
>>>> about it.
>>>> Yes, it makes no sense that neither Elrond nor Gandalf would know
>>>> who he
>>>> was, therefore we can only presume that they both knew exactly who
>>>> he was,
>>>> and wished not to put that information in front of the council
>>>> prematurely.
>>>> I would think, because to have the son of the Steward call for help
>>>> would
>>>> give an implicit tone of command, whereas a "Man of Gondor" could beg.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Prematurely?" Derek, why postpone the introduction for an hour or
>>> whatever it would be? And it was only as the son of the Stewd of
>>> Gondor that Boromir was in a position to beg. And when he begged, if
>>> that is the word, it was in precisly that capacity, after having told
>>> the council who he was.
>>>
>>> Öjevind
>>
>>
>> But he didn't come to beg...he in fact says just that, but rather to
>> seek counsel and knowledge, and he needn't be Denethor's son to
>> receive that at the Last Homely House.
>
>
> During the Council Boromir himself mentions that his father was
> Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith. But of course Tolkien made up the story
> as he went along. When Aragorn first appeared in the Inn at Bree Tolkien
> didn't know who he was and it was later that he made him the heir to the
> thrones of Gondor and Arnor. It was at the Council that this is first
> mentioned in the story but maybe Tolkien hadn't worked out why Aragorn
> was a King in exile and what the relationship was between him and the
> current rulers of Gondor.

Explicitly mentioned. Go back into the first book and look at Frodo's
visions, and Tom's tales....Aragorn is LOUDLY foreshadowed, so that a
careful reader when we encounter him can not help but think that he's
the character Frodo and the hobbits hear Tom tell about, with a star
upon his brow, and of course the description of him prepares us for that
as well. So we may not know the specifics until the Council, but we
know something.

As for Boromir, of course he identifies himself. But that wasn't the
question.


Therefore the position of Boromir is left
> somewhat vague at the Council.
> Jim
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Derek Broughton wrote:
> Jim Harker wrote:
>
>
>>Larry Swain wrote:
>>
>>>But he didn't come to beg...he in fact says just that, but rather to
>>>seek counsel and knowledge, and he needn't be Denethor's son to receive
>>>that at the Last Homely House.
>
>
> Well, as I said, I'd never really thought about this, and I still haven't
> HTBIFOM since the thread started (I know, unforgivable...) but when Boromir
> starts talking about how Gondor stands alone against Sauron, it sounds like
> begging to me.

Really? Huh, sounds like wounded but excessive pride to me.

>
>>During the Council Boromir himself mentions that his father was
>>Denethor, Lord of Minas Tirith. But of course Tolkien made up the story
>>as he went along.
>
>
> _Every_ author makes up a story as he goes along. Tolkien, otoh, was an
> obsessive rewriter. If anybody could eliminate inconsistencies, it would
> have been Tolkien. I just don't see this as a problem.

Me either.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

Raven wrote:

> (Back from two weeks of hard work at Green Concert, and to my delight
> seeing an actual Tolkien discussion, like in the old days.)

I was stunned last evening to see _over forty_ on-topic posts. Now I
half expect to log on and see a new Chapter of the Week post, or
even a Scandinavian language thread. (BTW, how long has it been since
the last time the latter occurred?)
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking? 

"Larry Swain" <giles.TakeThisOut@poetic.com> skrev i meddelelsen
news:Aumdnb4WVayBCw3VnZ2dnUVZ_qninZ2d@comcast.com...

> He was, until that time, in disguise and using a different name....I
> forget now and am too lazy to go get Unfinished Tales.

Annatar ("Giver of Gifts").

Craban.
 >> Stay informed about: What was Sauron thinking?