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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 295
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 12:27 am
Post subject: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)
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Greetings and Salutations
Something which came to mind from somewhere - how do the various
ships, fleets, planets and the like "synchronize" watches. I realize
that in space, it is always dark out, but how are shifts organized?
Let me back up a bit.
I'm assuming that the Royal Navy sets ship clocks to Landing Time when
they are commissioned, and (for sake of argument) then sets the
watches according to that clock. Hence forth, any one on board ship
can look a the clock and know what time it is "back home" (assuming
they live in Landing.) Till they hyper out, and spend some days
(subjective) making traveling to some other base/star system. Where
they emerge from hyper promptly at 0800 on a Monday. Only locally it
is 0123 Tuesday.
So how would you compensate for the "jet lag"? Keep the "regular
watches", and have those who have to deal with dirtsiders switch sleep
schedules? What if your orders are to join the Umpteenth squadron,
who are on a different schedule from planet Dirt? Do we just reset
clocks and calendars to match? Pop back into hyper and wander about
till the clocks match?
But what happens when you return to Manticore and Landing
Coordinated time is now different than what is on the ship
chronometer?
I'm also wondering about the calendar problem - the clock thing is
"trivial" but when you arrive on your "Monday" and it is their
"Wednesday" then what?
I'm not too sure how the various bands might effect time
measurements. Yes, you travel at the same "rate" in Hyper, as you do
in N-Space, but from N-Space, you're traveling much faster. Yeah, you
spend two weeks in hyper getting from point A to point B, but what
does that do to your calendar, which was in sync when you left point A
but where is it at point B?
I knew there had to be a reason for those massive computers in BUPERS
- just to keep track of actual subjective time in grade. Can't have
people claiming their tour is up because they've been gone for four
years, when they've only spend two in the chowline.
--
pyotr filipivich
"Quemadmoeum gladuis neminem occidit, occidentis telum est. "
Lucius Annaeus Seneca, circa 45 AD
(A sword is never a killer, it is a tool in the killer's hands.) >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Feb 27, 2007 Posts: 59
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Sun Feb 17, 2008 11:52 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Einstein gets the last laugh.
As a practical matter, all watches are likely done using ship time.
When a vessel enters into an orbit, it will set the shore clock to
local time. All watches are still stood using ship time, but shore
time is used for arranging anything with anyone off of the ship. A
possibility is that vessels working in concert, but away from a local
shore, adopt the flagship's ship time as "shore" time, so that the
ranking officer gets to run the group to his own schedule.
Detachments that leave a group and later return may not have reset
their "shore" time, on departure, but will always have to synch the
shore clock when they get back, from dilation effects.
Using ship time for all watches means that the pay matches the
subjective time worked. The only fiddling done with the ship's clock
is that during any yardwork long enough to notice, it is verified that
it is running at the correct speed (as the ship is at rest with
respect to the yard, and in very close proximity to the yard, even
Einstein allows the two clocks to be compared). No other calibrations
are possible. Ship time is also used for scheduling maintenance.
Ship time and shore time also involve seperate calendars.
Any other synchronization, without instantaneous communications (not
merely faster than light, but instantaneous) is either an
impossibility, or so contrived a setup as not to be useful for more
than a global positioning system. It might be possible to calculate
ways to allow two ships to rendezvous at a point in space via
different routes, but their clocks will not match. >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 295
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:10 am
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
"rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote on Sun, 17 Feb
2008 23:52:49 -0800 (PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
>Einstein gets the last laugh.
>
>As a practical matter, all watches are likely done using ship time.
>When a vessel enters into an orbit, it will set the shore clock to
>local time. All watches are still stood using ship time, but shore
>time is used for arranging anything with anyone off of the ship. A
>possibility is that vessels working in concert, but away from a local
>shore, adopt the flagship's ship time as "shore" time, so that the
>ranking officer gets to run the group to his own schedule.
>Detachments that leave a group and later return may not have reset
>their "shore" time, on departure, but will always have to synch the
>shore clock when they get back, from dilation effects.
Which makes me wonder about ships which go out from the home port,
clock in sync, but return many trips later, hours and possibly days,
out of sync. Hmm, the hours thing I can see a way around, you're
assigned a parking orbit in geo synchronous orbit where ground time is
the same as your time. A good idea, save for all those pesky
satellites in the way.
tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes." >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Jul 01, 2004 Posts: 270
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:07 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article <dttqr3lvrjvo4tpdaisv9kdq69u5cjiskd RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
pyotr filipivich <phamp RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
> I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
> "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote on Sun, 17 Feb
> 2008 23:52:49 -0800 (PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
> >Einstein gets the last laugh.
> >
> >As a practical matter, all watches are likely done using ship time.
> >When a vessel enters into an orbit, it will set the shore clock to
> >local time. All watches are still stood using ship time, but shore
> >time is used for arranging anything with anyone off of the ship. A
> >possibility is that vessels working in concert, but away from a local
> >shore, adopt the flagship's ship time as "shore" time, so that the
> >ranking officer gets to run the group to his own schedule.
> >Detachments that leave a group and later return may not have reset
> >their "shore" time, on departure, but will always have to synch the
> >shore clock when they get back, from dilation effects.
>
> Which makes me wonder about ships which go out from the home port,
> clock in sync, but return many trips later, hours and possibly days,
> out of sync. Hmm, the hours thing I can see a way around, you're
> assigned a parking orbit in geo synchronous orbit where ground time is
> the same as your time. A good idea, save for all those pesky
> satellites in the way.
>
> tschus
> pyotr
Ships won't have a groundside home port. When they get back to their
home worlds, and the crews take leave to visit friends and family,
they'll probably scatter around to nearly every time zone on the
planet's surface.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/> >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 5:01 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:10:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<phamp DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
>"rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid DeleteThis @gmail.com> wrote on Sun, 17 Feb
>2008 23:52:49 -0800 (PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
>>Einstein gets the last laugh.
>>
>>As a practical matter, all watches are likely done using ship time.
>>When a vessel enters into an orbit, it will set the shore clock to
>>local time. All watches are still stood using ship time, but shore
>>time is used for arranging anything with anyone off of the ship. A
>>possibility is that vessels working in concert, but away from a local
>>shore, adopt the flagship's ship time as "shore" time, so that the
>>ranking officer gets to run the group to his own schedule.
>>Detachments that leave a group and later return may not have reset
>>their "shore" time, on departure, but will always have to synch the
>>shore clock when they get back, from dilation effects.
>
> Which makes me wonder about ships which go out from the home port,
>clock in sync, but return many trips later, hours and possibly days,
>out of sync. Hmm, the hours thing I can see a way around, you're
>assigned a parking orbit in geo synchronous orbit where ground time is
>the same as your time. A good idea, save for all those pesky
>satellites in the way.
>
>tschus
>pyotr
Unfortunately, given the need to shuttle up and down to most of the
ships in the Honorverse, you may be able to sync the ship to a
groundside time zone, but you'll likely either be shuttling over to a
station which is likely to be out of sync with the ship... or
downside, to a landing field which is likely to be out of sync with
the ship's time, as it could be anywhere on the planet.
Anthony Albert >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Dec 18, 2007 Posts: 7
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 9:19 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Why would they not operate on a local equivalent of Zulu (GMT) time?
The buggy problem is how do they accommodate relativity? Worse than
crossing the Date Line here on Earth. Just imagine setting up an east-
west patrol line say 100 miles long that crossed the Date Line. After
you answer that, consider keeping track of temporary duty time and
service time on crews that are in ships bouncing all over the universe
undergoing relativistic effects.
Walt BJ >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Feb 27, 2007 Posts: 59
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:57 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 22, 10:19 pm, Gunfighter40 <waltb... DeleteThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
> Why would they not operate on a local equivalent of Zulu (GMT) time?
> The buggy problem is how do they accommodate relativity? Worse than
> crossing the Date Line here on Earth. Just imagine setting up an east-
> west patrol line say 100 miles long that crossed the Date Line. After
> you answer that, consider keeping track of temporary duty time and
> service time on crews that are in ships bouncing all over the universe
> undergoing relativistic effects.
> Walt BJ
That is why I suggested that ships are run on on their own internal
clock and the only fiddling done with it is to make sure that it runs
at the correct speed, when a reference is available to calibrate it.
There is no good way to account for relativity. Fortunately, the only
times that these differences pose a noticeable problem is when the
vessel is in a star system and is travelling at the velocity rating of
its particle shield (two clocks at different speeds close enough to
communicate with each other).
The only other problem is if the pay timeclock is not onboard the
ship, as this results in unequal pay between crews that flit about
between systems and crews that spend most of their time on in-system
patrols. Cultures that accept two income families as the norm will
just pay based on the elapsed ship time. Societies like the Graysons
will pay the households of servicemen based on the time they spend
away from home, a single man is paid only for elapsed ship time( this
means that married men get paid more than single men, but married men
have more responsibilities)-- a single system polity can easily
implement that, as clocks in every steading run at the same speed.
Multi-system polities can also enact that family benefit, if the time
differences between systems is not significant on scale of a
Prolonged human lifespan. >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 295
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:48 am
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Gunfighter40
<waltbj01.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote on Fri, 22 Feb 2008 21:19:44 -0800
(PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
>Why would they not operate on a local equivalent of Zulu (GMT) time?
Which was my first observation. "Obviously", Her Majesties Navy
runs on Coordinated Landing Time, with the Naval Observatory near the
Palace.
>The buggy problem is how do they accommodate relativity?
That's been my question, too. I can see things being computed
using "ship time" (which opens an whole other kettle of worms), but my
main puzzlement is getting the ship in sync with the Naval Observatory
when they return from a long deployment. Relativistic effects aren't
likely to show up in a wormhole transit, that is "instantaneous". But
bouncing up and down (as well as in and out of) the hyper bands is
going top play hob with coordinating the ship "here and now" with the
port "here and now". E.g. when Honor and crew returned from the
Q-ship mission, their personal "comps" had "today" as what day of the
week? And the time was ...? Remember they had been "bouncing" in and
out of hyper as they trolled for pirates. Without some serious
technobabble, they are going to have some "jetlag" between their own
subjective time, and the local time at the Naval Observatory on
Manticore.
Fnord, what day of what week is it on Sidmore station, in regards
to Fleet Headquarters on Manticore? When the new Monarch is crowned,
do dispatch boats zip off in all directions, make the best possible
passage time to their destinations, announcing the new day (literally)
based on when they arrive? As in "We left on the Monday, it took us
precisely 13 days to get here, therefore tomorrow is Tuesday, By Royal
Command."
>Worse than
>crossing the Date Line here on Earth. Just imagine setting up an east-
>west patrol line say 100 miles long that crossed the Date Line. After
>you answer that, consider keeping track of temporary duty time and
>service time on crews that are in ships bouncing all over the universe
>undergoing relativistic effects.
And I noted after some calculations, time dilation doesn't become
a problem (for certain values of "problem") until speed exceeds
eighty percent of c, which just so happens to also be the maximum
speed allowable by shielding and all the rest.
At least we have no evidence that time in hyperspace is altering
the physical dimensions of the ships themselves.
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We now return you to something called reality. >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 295
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 8:48 am
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
"rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote on Fri, 22 Feb
2008 22:57:26 -0800 (PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
>On Feb 22, 10:19 pm, Gunfighter40 <waltb....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> Why would they not operate on a local equivalent of Zulu (GMT) time?
>> The buggy problem is how do they accommodate relativity? Worse than
>> crossing the Date Line here on Earth. Just imagine setting up an east-
>> west patrol line say 100 miles long that crossed the Date Line. After
>> you answer that, consider keeping track of temporary duty time and
>> service time on crews that are in ships bouncing all over the universe
>> undergoing relativistic effects.
>> Walt BJ
>
>
>That is why I suggested that ships are run on on their own internal
>clock and the only fiddling done with it is to make sure that it runs
>at the correct speed, when a reference is available to calibrate it.
>There is no good way to account for relativity. Fortunately, the only
>times that these differences pose a noticeable problem is when the
>vessel is in a star system and is travelling at the velocity rating of
>its particle shield (two clocks at different speeds close enough to
>communicate with each other).
>
>The only other problem is if the pay timeclock is not onboard the
>ship, as this results in unequal pay between crews that flit about
>between systems and crews that spend most of their time on in-system
>patrols. Cultures that accept two income families as the norm will
>just pay based on the elapsed ship time. Societies like the Graysons
>will pay the households of servicemen based on the time they spend
>away from home, a single man is paid only for elapsed ship time( this
>means that married men get paid more than single men, but married men
>have more responsibilities)-- a single system polity can easily
>implement that, as clocks in every steading run at the same speed.
>Multi-system polities can also enact that family benefit, if the time
>differences between systems is not significant on scale of a
>Prolonged human lifespan.
Which is well and good, but how would you handle a ship returning
to the home port, which has its clock "in" a different "time zone". It
has been gone 168 hours by it's own clocks, but 178 hours by the port
clock. Now, do you have a "comp" day, and reset the ship clocks to
the port clock, or just ignore it, and have a ship which is getting
further and further out of sync with the home port? And I haven't
really addressed the issue of spending so much time in hyper that your
calendar is off. (Machinery which needs regular scheduled maintenance
gets around this problem by having an hour counter, which is only "on"
when the machine is running. PM is done every N hours, not at noon on
every third day.)
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes." >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Feb 27, 2007 Posts: 59
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 2:29 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 23, 9:48 am, pyotr filipivich <ph....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:
> I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
> "rlbell.ns...@gmail.com" <rlbell.ns....TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote on Fri, 22 Feb
> 2008 22:57:26 -0800 (PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
>
>
>
> >On Feb 22, 10:19 pm, Gunfighter40 <waltb....TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:
> >> Why would they not operate on a local equivalent of Zulu (GMT) time?
> >> The buggy problem is how do they accommodate relativity? Worse than
> >> crossing the Date Line here on Earth. Just imagine setting up an east-
> >> west patrol line say 100 miles long that crossed the Date Line. After
> >> you answer that, consider keeping track of temporary duty time and
> >> service time on crews that are in ships bouncing all over the universe
> >> undergoing relativistic effects.
> >> Walt BJ
>
> >That is why I suggested that ships are run on on their own internal
> >clock and the only fiddling done with it is to make sure that it runs
> >at the correct speed, when a reference is available to calibrate it.
> >There is no good way to account for relativity. Fortunately, the only
> >times that these differences pose a noticeable problem is when the
> >vessel is in a star system and is travelling at the velocity rating of
> >its particle shield (two clocks at different speeds close enough to
> >communicate with each other).
>
> >The only other problem is if the pay timeclock is not onboard the
> >ship, as this results in unequal pay between crews that flit about
> >between systems and crews that spend most of their time on in-system
> >patrols. Cultures that accept two income families as the norm will
> >just pay based on the elapsed ship time. Societies like the Graysons
> >will pay the households of servicemen based on the time they spend
> >away from home, a single man is paid only for elapsed ship time( this
> >means that married men get paid more than single men, but married men
> >have more responsibilities)-- a single system polity can easily
> >implement that, as clocks in every steading run at the same speed.
> >Multi-system polities can also enact that family benefit, if the time
> >differences between systems is not significant on scale of a
> >Prolonged human lifespan.
>
> Which is well and good, but how would you handle a ship returning
> to the home port, which has its clock "in" a different "time zone". It
> has been gone 168 hours by it's own clocks, but 178 hours by the port
> clock. Now, do you have a "comp" day, and reset the ship clocks to
> the port clock, or just ignore it, and have a ship which is getting
> further and further out of sync with the home port? And I haven't
> really addressed the issue of spending so much time in hyper that your
> calendar is off. (Machinery which needs regular scheduled maintenance
> gets around this problem by having an hour counter, which is only "on"
> when the machine is running. PM is done every N hours, not at noon on
> every third day.)
>
There is no good way to reconcile the fact that different amounts of
time elapse between the ship and its home port. That is why I said
that Einstein gets the last laugh. Fortunately, there is nothing
immoral about only paying a spacer based on his elapsed subjective
time, as he is only older by his subjective time. Also, when the
spacer is in port, the port clock and ship clock run at the same speed. >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Feb 27, 2007 Posts: 59
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:03 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Feb 23, 4:38 pm, Don Sample <dsam....DeleteThis@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article
> <ce6d9bcb-64ff-4e45-934e-aa08c573f....DeleteThis@m23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
>
> "rlbell.ns...@gmail.com" <rlbell.ns....DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
> > There is no good way to reconcile the fact that different amounts of
> > time elapse between the ship and its home port. That is why I said
> > that Einstein gets the last laugh. Fortunately, there is nothing
> > immoral about only paying a spacer based on his elapsed subjective
> > time, as he is only older by his subjective time. Also, when the
> > spacer is in port, the port clock and ship clock run at the same speed.
>
> Morality's got nothing to do with it. The Spacer's Union is going to
> insist that they get paid according to whatever clock says they've been
> working longest.
>
The Spacers' Union will accept ship subjective time, as they want to
collect dues. Flags of convenience will always exist and corporations
tend to be amoral, sociopathic legal persons that will find the way to
spend the least amount of money. If union spacers are expensive,
relative to non-union spacers, union spacers will be rare.
The clock problem is actually worse than we thought. Special
Relativity allows us to calculate the time dilation for relative
velocities, but General Relativity is needed to account for dilation
effects due to spacetime curvature. The further down you are in a
gravity well, the slower that your clock runs. The impeller works by
creating extreme curvatures in spacetime, so there will be dilaion
effects as soon as the drive kicks in.
This is an inherent problem with gravitic drives. There comes a point
where increasing the acceleration causes the clock to slow, so, when
viewed from outside, the acceleration does not seem to increase as
much: for example, if increasing the acceleration by a factor of ten
causes* the clock to slow down by a factor of eight, to an outside
observer the acceleraion increase is only 25% (this begs the questions
'How fast do missiles think they accelerate?' and 'How are ships'
proving trials actually measured?'.
Once again Honorverse suffers from employing technobabble that has too
many referents to real physics. On the plus side, this may explain
why missiles are so dumb-- their clocks run at a snails' pace relative
to the launching platform and target.
* I majored in engineering, not physics (although I nearly had it as a
minor), so I have no idea how to calculate time dilation from the
acceleration due to local gravity, these numbers are pulled from my
ass. >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Jul 01, 2004 Posts: 270
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 6:38 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In article
<ce6d9bcb-64ff-4e45-934e-aa08c573f725 RemoveThis @m23g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>,
"rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> There is no good way to reconcile the fact that different amounts of
> time elapse between the ship and its home port. That is why I said
> that Einstein gets the last laugh. Fortunately, there is nothing
> immoral about only paying a spacer based on his elapsed subjective
> time, as he is only older by his subjective time. Also, when the
> spacer is in port, the port clock and ship clock run at the same speed.
Morality's got nothing to do with it. The Spacer's Union is going to
insist that they get paid according to whatever clock says they've been
working longest.
--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/> >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Aug 26, 2003 Posts: 295
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 11:20 pm
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
ajalbert RemoveThis @excite.com (Anthony J. Albert) wrote on Fri, 22 Feb 2008
18:16:26 GMT in alt.books.david-weber :
>On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 05:10:59 -0800, pyotr filipivich
><phamp RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
>>"rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote on Sun, 17 Feb
>>2008 23:52:49 -0800 (PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
>>>Einstein gets the last laugh.
>>>
>>>As a practical matter, all watches are likely done using ship time.
>>>When a vessel enters into an orbit, it will set the shore clock to
>>>local time. All watches are still stood using ship time, but shore
>>>time is used for arranging anything with anyone off of the ship. A
>>>possibility is that vessels working in concert, but away from a local
>>>shore, adopt the flagship's ship time as "shore" time, so that the
>>>ranking officer gets to run the group to his own schedule.
>>>Detachments that leave a group and later return may not have reset
>>>their "shore" time, on departure, but will always have to synch the
>>>shore clock when they get back, from dilation effects.
>>
>> Which makes me wonder about ships which go out from the home port,
>>clock in sync, but return many trips later, hours and possibly days,
>>out of sync. Hmm, the hours thing I can see a way around, you're
>>assigned a parking orbit in geo synchronous orbit where ground time is
>>the same as your time. A good idea, save for all those pesky
>>satellites in the way.
>>
>>tschus
>>pyotr
>
>Unfortunately, given the need to shuttle up and down to most of the
>ships in the Honorverse, you may be able to sync the ship to a
>groundside time zone, but you'll likely either be shuttling over to a
>station which is likely to be out of sync with the ship... or
>downside, to a landing field which is likely to be out of sync with
>the ship's time, as it could be anywhere on the planet.
What I am thinking is that the Good Ship Huffenpuff, having an
internal clock reading 1700, is assigned a geo-synchronous orbit over
the city of Bath, five times zone 'west' of Landing (which is at noon,
standard time). Bath handles all the logistics of scheduling supply
runs, etc. Crew on liberty or leave, will be landed at the Bath space
port, and then travel on from there. They will reset their watch to
"local" time when they get there, same as if they had spent the last
year stationed at Bath.
But, here is part of the quandary, which calendar are "we" using?
Due to travel time, etc, the Huffenpuff calendar says it is the 3rd
day of the 2nd week of the 10th month. Bath, having not suffered any
chronological anomalies, knows that it is the 2nd day of the 3rd week
of the 10th month. So when supply runs are scheduled up on Thursday,
is that "Thursday" ship time, or port time?
Would there be any attempt to resolve such a discrepancy? Or will
ROCOR (Russian Church outside of Russia) rule the space ways, as they
are already used to using a calendar out of sync with the rest of the
world (today being Feb 9th, Old Style)?
tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
We now return you to something called reality. >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Apr 09, 2008 Posts: 1
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:59 am
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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pyotr filipivich <phamp RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote in
news:pgh0s3di02dl5m33j95q6v14c783epb638@4ax.com:
> I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
> Gunfighter40 <waltbj01 RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote on Fri, 22 Feb 2008
> 21:19:44 -0800 (PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
>>Why would they not operate on a local equivalent of Zulu (GMT)
>>time?
>
> Which was my first observation. "Obviously", Her Majesties
> Navy
> runs on Coordinated Landing Time, with the Naval Observatory
> near the Palace.
>
>>The buggy problem is how do they accommodate relativity?
>
> That's been my question, too. I can see things being
> computed
> using "ship time" (which opens an whole other kettle of worms),
> but my main puzzlement is getting the ship in sync with the
> Naval Observatory when they return from a long deployment.
> Relativistic effects aren't likely to show up in a wormhole
> transit, that is "instantaneous". But bouncing up and down (as
> well as in and out of) the hyper bands is going top play hob
> with coordinating the ship "here and now" with the port "here
> and now". E.g. when Honor and crew returned from the Q-ship
> mission, their personal "comps" had "today" as what day of the
> week? And the time was ...? Remember they had been "bouncing"
> in and out of hyper as they trolled for pirates. Without some
> serious technobabble, they are going to have some "jetlag"
> between their own subjective time, and the local time at the
> Naval Observatory on Manticore.
> Fnord, what day of what week is it on Sidmore station, in
> regards
> to Fleet Headquarters on Manticore? When the new Monarch is
> crowned, do dispatch boats zip off in all directions, make the
> best possible passage time to their destinations, announcing the
> new day (literally) based on when they arrive? As in "We left
> on the Monday, it took us precisely 13 days to get here,
> therefore tomorrow is Tuesday, By Royal Command."
>
>>Worse than
>>crossing the Date Line here on Earth. Just imagine setting up
>>an east- west patrol line say 100 miles long that crossed the
>>Date Line. After you answer that, consider keeping track of
>>temporary duty time and service time on crews that are in ships
>>bouncing all over the universe undergoing relativistic effects.
>
> And I noted after some calculations, time dilation doesn't
> become
> a problem (for certain values of "problem") until speed exceeds
> eighty percent of c, which just so happens to also be the
> maximum speed allowable by shielding and all the rest.
> At least we have no evidence that time in hyperspace is
> altering
> the physical dimensions of the ships themselves.
>
>
> pyotr
I would submit the following:
All ships have the equivalent of our 'atomic clocks', which keep
the 'ship relative time' to the limits of accuracy of the
technology.
That within the Manticore system, there is a Manticore Zulu
maintained which would be the equivalent of our earth Zulu.
That whenever a ship returns to the Manticore system it resets its
ship relative time to Manticore Zulu, with an appropriate log entry
as to the delta involved.
That there is a means of coordinating time between systems -
celestial navigation. Suitable observation of enough celestial
objects whose relative motion are known will provide accuracy down
to at least the second level. That should be sufficient to
determine the "Manticore Zulu" equivalent for the local system.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com ** >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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Since: Apr 09, 2008 Posts: 5
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:59 am
Post subject: Re: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the way we do it in the fleet [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"tim" <timothybil RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9A7B6FBB4E2FCtimothybilyahoocom@66.175.223.2...
> pyotr filipivich <phamp RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote in
> news:pgh0s3di02dl5m33j95q6v14c783epb638@4ax.com:
>
>> I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that
>> Gunfighter40 <waltbj01 RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote on Fri, 22 Feb 2008
>> 21:19:44 -0800 (PST) in alt.books.david-weber :
>>>Why would they not operate on a local equivalent of Zulu (GMT)
>>>time?
>>
>> Which was my first observation. "Obviously", Her Majesties
>> Navy
>> runs on Coordinated Landing Time, with the Naval Observatory
>> near the Palace.
>>
>>>The buggy problem is how do they accommodate relativity?
>>
>> That's been my question, too. I can see things being
>> computed
>> using "ship time" (which opens an whole other kettle of worms),
>> but my main puzzlement is getting the ship in sync with the
>> Naval Observatory when they return from a long deployment.
>> Relativistic effects aren't likely to show up in a wormhole
>> transit, that is "instantaneous". But bouncing up and down (as
>> well as in and out of) the hyper bands is going top play hob
>> with coordinating the ship "here and now" with the port "here
>> and now". E.g. when Honor and crew returned from the Q-ship
>> mission, their personal "comps" had "today" as what day of the
>> week? And the time was ...? Remember they had been "bouncing"
>> in and out of hyper as they trolled for pirates. Without some
>> serious technobabble, they are going to have some "jetlag"
>> between their own subjective time, and the local time at the
>> Naval Observatory on Manticore.
>> Fnord, what day of what week is it on Sidmore station, in
>> regards
>> to Fleet Headquarters on Manticore? When the new Monarch is
>> crowned, do dispatch boats zip off in all directions, make the
>> best possible passage time to their destinations, announcing the
>> new day (literally) based on when they arrive? As in "We left
>> on the Monday, it took us precisely 13 days to get here,
>> therefore tomorrow is Tuesday, By Royal Command."
>>
>>>Worse than
>>>crossing the Date Line here on Earth. Just imagine setting up
>>>an east- west patrol line say 100 miles long that crossed the
>>>Date Line. After you answer that, consider keeping track of
>>>temporary duty time and service time on crews that are in ships
>>>bouncing all over the universe undergoing relativistic effects.
>>
>> And I noted after some calculations, time dilation doesn't
>> become
>> a problem (for certain values of "problem") until speed exceeds
>> eighty percent of c, which just so happens to also be the
>> maximum speed allowable by shielding and all the rest.
>> At least we have no evidence that time in hyperspace is
>> altering
>> the physical dimensions of the ships themselves.
>>
>>
>> pyotr
>
> I would submit the following:
>
> All ships have the equivalent of our 'atomic clocks', which keep
> the 'ship relative time' to the limits of accuracy of the
> technology.
>
> That within the Manticore system, there is a Manticore Zulu
> maintained which would be the equivalent of our earth Zulu.
>
> That whenever a ship returns to the Manticore system it resets its
> ship relative time to Manticore Zulu, with an appropriate log entry
> as to the delta involved.
>
> That there is a means of coordinating time between systems -
> celestial navigation. Suitable observation of enough celestial
> objects whose relative motion are known will provide accuracy down
> to at least the second level. That should be sufficient to
> determine the "Manticore Zulu" equivalent for the local system.
> ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
There is text evidence that Ship Time does 'lag' compared to Planet Bound
Time. So I suspect that when a Star Ship returns to "Home Port" they adjust
their time to match Home Port Time. This is likely one of those things that
David Weber doesn't mention happening.
--
Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
* >> Stay informed about: Setting the Clock: the Planet way, the navy way, and the w.. |
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