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Since: Aug 11, 2008 Posts: 2
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(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:09 pm
Post subject: why not "Sir? Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)
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I was doing some casual reading on Professor Tolkien and read that he
had received the OBE from the Queen. However, he is only a "commander"
(third level) and therefore, not to be addressed as "Sir." I can't seem
to find anything indicating why the Professor has not been awarded the
second or even first level OBE and therefore entitled to to duly
addressed as " Sir." How could be be viewed as a third level British
subject and not second or first?
Can you shed any light on that.
Gary >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Aug 12, 2008 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 2) Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:45 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien, others (more info?)
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On Aug 12, 8:18 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br....TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> [crossposted to alt.talk.royalty]
>
> Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:09:58 -0500 from music <mu....TakeThisOut@kvne.com>:
>
> > I was doing some casual reading on Professor Tolkien and read that he
> > had received the OBE from the Queen. However, he is only a "commander"
> > (third level) and therefore, not to be addressed as "Sir." I can't seem
> > to find anything indicating why the Professor has not been awarded the
> > second or even first level OBE and therefore entitled to to duly
> > addressed as " Sir." How could be be viewed as a third level British
> > subject and not second or first?
>
> P.G. Wodehouse was knighted, but by the time of Tolkien's honor the
> government's policy was to reduce the number of honors granted. There
> were no more new hereditary peerages outside the Royal Family, for
> instance.
>
> Perhaps -- and I'm only speculating here -- it was felt that Tolkien
> had produced only one major literary work, while Wodehouse had
> produced much more over the course of his life. Perhaps, too, yjere
> was still a little bit of a stigma attached to "mere fantasy". I
> believe Lewis Carroll, whose "Alice" books in their day were as
> popular as LotR, never received any sort of honour.
>
> On the other hand, actors have received knighthoods even much more
> recently.
>
> Does anyone know why Tolkien was given an OBE rather than a
> knightbood?
>
The quotation and the commenary are somewhat garbled.
OBE stands for Officer of the Most Excellent Order of the British
Empire, and applies to the fourth class of that order.
Professor John Ronald Reuel Tolkien was awarded the Third Class or
Commander of of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire "for
services to English literature" in the New Years Honours List 31st
December 1971. This class of award is signified by the post nominal
letters CBE.
One will never know why he never received a knighthood. He may well
have been offered one and declined or never offered one a all, one
will never know. It is normally the case that people are sounded out
before their names are put forward. However, one usually rises in
steps and a CBE may well be followed by Knight Bachelor a few years
later, provided more good works have been performed. In this case he
died only about a year and a half after receiving his CBE.
Of course, it does not help one's case to be openly and vehemently
anti the Queen's church! >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Jan 01, 2004 Posts: 626
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(Msg. 3) Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:18 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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[crossposted to alt.talk.royalty]
Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:09:58 -0500 from music <music DeleteThis @kvne.com>:
> I was doing some casual reading on Professor Tolkien and read that he
> had received the OBE from the Queen. However, he is only a "commander"
> (third level) and therefore, not to be addressed as "Sir." I can't seem
> to find anything indicating why the Professor has not been awarded the
> second or even first level OBE and therefore entitled to to duly
> addressed as " Sir." How could be be viewed as a third level British
> subject and not second or first?
P.G. Wodehouse was knighted, but by the time of Tolkien's honor the
government's policy was to reduce the number of honors granted. There
were no more new hereditary peerages outside the Royal Family, for
instance.
Perhaps -- and I'm only speculating here -- it was felt that Tolkien
had produced only one major literary work, while Wodehouse had
produced much more over the course of his life. Perhaps, too, yjere
was still a little bit of a stigma attached to "mere fantasy". I
believe Lewis Carroll, whose "Alice" books in their day were as
popular as LotR, never received any sort of honour.
On the other hand, actors have received knighthoods even much more
recently.
Does anyone know why Tolkien was given an OBE rather than a
knightbood?
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Tolkien FAQs: http://Tolkien.slimy.com (Steuard Jensen's site)
Tolkien letters FAQ:
http://mysite.verizon.net/aznirb/mtr/lettersfaq.html
FAQ of the Rings: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm
Encyclopedia of Arda: http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/faqget.htm >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Aug 12, 2008 Posts: 3
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(Msg. 4) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:00 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: alt>talk>royalty, others (more info?)
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On Aug 14, 3:01 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br....TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) from CJ Buyers
> <susuha....TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk>:
>
> > I think you and Tolkien need a spell in junior school. According to my
> > understanding of history, the Anglican Church wasn't founded because
> > of any hatred for the Roman Catholic Church but because Henry VIII
> > wanted to divorce his then wife.
>
> According to /1066 and All That/, the Pope and all his followers
> seceded from the Church of England.
>
> But, joking aside, persecution of Catholics followed pretty quickly
> after the founding of the C of E. When he nationalized the
> monasteries, Henry was committed, and so were the nobility who bought
> former Church lands. There were religious persecutions in the next
> several reigns (though during Mary's it went the opposite direction),
> and as someone has already pointed out, Catholics were denied full
> civil rights for three centuries after Henry's reign.
Are you saying that the C of E was not set up because Henry VIII
wanted to divorce his wife and because he hated Catholics, as Tolkien
claimed? >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Jan 01, 2004 Posts: 626
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(Msg. 5) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 10:01 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) from CJ Buyers
<susuhanan DeleteThis @hotmail.co.uk>:
> I think you and Tolkien need a spell in junior school. According to my
> understanding of history, the Anglican Church wasn't founded because
> of any hatred for the Roman Catholic Church but because Henry VIII
> wanted to divorce his then wife.
According to /1066 and All That/, the Pope and all his followers
seceded from the Church of England.
But, joking aside, persecution of Catholics followed pretty quickly
after the founding of the C of E. When he nationalized the
monasteries, Henry was committed, and so were the nobility who bought
former Church lands. There were religious persecutions in the next
several reigns (though during Mary's it went the opposite direction),
and as someone has already pointed out, Catholics were denied full
civil rights for three centuries after Henry's reign.
I've always thought Tolkien indulged a little bit of a martyr
complex, claiming that his mother had in essence died for her faith.
But just because he exaggerated the persecution (if he did) doesn't
mean that there was none.
--
Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
http://OakRoadSystems.com
Royalty FAQs:
1. http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/britfaq.html
2. http://www.heraldica.org/faqs/atrfaq.htm
Yvonne's HRH page:
http://web.archive.org/web/20040722191706/http://users.uniserve.com/
~canyon/prince.html
more FAQs: http://oakroadsystems.com/tech/faqget.htm >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Jan 28, 2005 Posts: 263
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(Msg. 6) Posted: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:24 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Stan Brown wrote:
> Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) from CJ Buyers
> <susuhanan RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk>:
>> I think you and Tolkien need a spell in junior school. According to my
>> understanding of history, the Anglican Church wasn't founded because
>> of any hatred for the Roman Catholic Church but because Henry VIII
>> wanted to divorce his then wife.
>
> According to /1066 and All That/, the Pope and all his followers
> seceded from the Church of England.
 It IS the definitive history!
> But, joking aside, persecution of Catholics followed pretty quickly
> after the founding of the C of E.
Henry took advantage of a general climate and desire for reformation to
break with the RC church. Yes _he_ wanted a divorce that he couldn't get
from the church, but he couldn't have just changed the state religion at
the time without a great deal of support within the country. Some
supported him because they were true believers in the Reformation, some
because they stood to gain wealth or position, but only a few supported him
just because they thought he should be able to have a divorce.
--
derek >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Feb 23, 2008 Posts: 8
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(Msg. 7) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:05 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Aug 14, 3:01 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br....DeleteThis@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> I've always thought Tolkien indulged a little bit of a martyr
> complex, claiming that his mother had in essence died for her faith.
> But just because he exaggerated the persecution (if he did) doesn't
> mean that there was none.
>
> --
> Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
During Tolkien's mother's lifetime, there was no poverty relief from
the Government: if your family could not provide, aid was organised by
the churches. In the English countyside, the Church was the Church of
England; the Catholic Church (like the Nonconformists) was based in
the towns (in those days, it was mostly the church of immigrants, who
like moden immigrants, went to the cities). Mrs. Tolkien had
therefore cut herself off from church relief, just as she had cut
herself off from her family by becoming a Catholic.
You are correct about Tolkien's martyr complex; there was no
persecution of Catholics at the time (he certainly experienced none). >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Feb 23, 2008 Posts: 8
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(Msg. 8) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 4:07 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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On Aug 14, 6:00 am, CJ Buyers <susuha....TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Are you saying that the C of E was not set up because Henry VIII
> wanted to divorce his wife and because he hated Catholics, as Tolkien
> claimed?
>
Henry didn't hate Catholics; he was one doctrinally. The hatred of
Catholics came a generation later, after the Marian persecutions. >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Aug 28, 2007 Posts: 55
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(Msg. 9) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 10:00 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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JJ wrote:
> On Aug 14, 3:01 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br....TakeThisOut@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>
>>I've always thought Tolkien indulged a little bit of a martyr
>>complex, claiming that his mother had in essence died for her faith.
>>But just because he exaggerated the persecution (if he did) doesn't
>>mean that there was none.
>>
>>--
>>Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA
>
>
> During Tolkien's mother's lifetime, there was no poverty relief from
> the Government: if your family could not provide, aid was organised by
> the churches. In the English countyside, the Church was the Church of
> England; the Catholic Church (like the Nonconformists) was based in
> the towns (in those days, it was mostly the church of immigrants, who
> like moden immigrants, went to the cities). Mrs. Tolkien had
> therefore cut herself off from church relief, just as she had cut
> herself off from her family by becoming a Catholic.
> You are correct about Tolkien's martyr complex; there was no
> persecution of Catholics at the time (he certainly experienced none).
Yes there was, it just wasn't physical. In early 20th century England,
it was much more difficult for a Catholic to become part of the elite of
Oxbridge than a C of E man. That may not be persecution that leads to
martyrdom, but is the very kind of persecution that Islamic countries
perpetrated against Christians (higher taxes, special taxes, fewer
rights, etc....freedom of religion, at a cost), for example, in the
Middle Ages, resulting in the conversion of many Christians just because
it made life so much easier. That really changed after the Wars. >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Jul 26, 2008 Posts: 14
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(Msg. 10) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:52 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Stan Brown wrote:
> Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) from CJ Buyers
> <susuhanan DeleteThis @hotmail.co.uk>:
>> I think you and Tolkien need a spell in junior school. According to my
>> understanding of history, the Anglican Church wasn't founded because
>> of any hatred for the Roman Catholic Church but because Henry VIII
>> wanted to divorce his then wife.
>
> According to /1066 and All That/, the Pope and all his followers
> seceded from the Church of England.
>
> But, joking aside, persecution of Catholics followed pretty quickly
> after the founding of the C of E. When he nationalized the
> monasteries, Henry was committed, and so were the nobility who bought
> former Church lands. There were religious persecutions in the next
> several reigns (though during Mary's it went the opposite direction),
> and as someone has already pointed out, Catholics were denied full
> civil rights for three centuries after Henry's reign.
>
> I've always thought Tolkien indulged a little bit of a martyr
> complex, claiming that his mother had in essence died for her faith.
> But just because he exaggerated the persecution (if he did) doesn't
> mean that there was none.
It should be noted, however, that Elizabeth employed a
don't-ask-don't-tell policy until a new pope decided to put out a
contract on her.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The bright critics assembled in this volume will doubtless show, in
their sophisticated and ingenious new ways, that, just as /Pooh/ is
suffused with humanism, our humanism itself, at this late date, has
become full of /Pooh./"
-- Frederick Crews. "Postmodern Pooh", Preface >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Jul 26, 2008 Posts: 14
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(Msg. 11) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 12:55 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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CJ Buyers wrote:
> On Aug 14, 3:01 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br... RemoveThis @fastmail.fm> wrote:
>> Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) from CJ Buyers
>> <susuha... RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk>:
>>
>>> I think you and Tolkien need a spell in junior school. According to my
>>> understanding of history, the Anglican Church wasn't founded because
>>> of any hatred for the Roman Catholic Church but because Henry VIII
>>> wanted to divorce his then wife.
>> According to /1066 and All That/, the Pope and all his followers
>> seceded from the Church of England.
>>
>> But, joking aside, persecution of Catholics followed pretty quickly
>> after the founding of the C of E. When he nationalized the
>> monasteries, Henry was committed, and so were the nobility who bought
>> former Church lands. There were religious persecutions in the next
>> several reigns (though during Mary's it went the opposite direction),
>> and as someone has already pointed out, Catholics were denied full
>> civil rights for three centuries after Henry's reign.
>
> Are you saying that the C of E was not set up because Henry VIII
> wanted to divorce his wife and because he hated Catholics, as Tolkien
> claimed?
That would be somewhat skewed. Henry VIII lived and died a Roman
Catholic in all points /except/ the question of the authority of the
pope. The C of E did not turn Protestant until several years into
Edward's short reign.
--
John W. Kennedy
"Those in the seat of power oft forget their failings and seek only
the obeisance of others! Thus is bad government born! Hold in your
heart that you and the people are one, human beings all, and good
government shall arise of its own accord! Such is the path of virtue!"
-- Kazuo Koike. "Lone Wolf and Cub: Thirteen Strings" (tr. Dana Lewis) >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Jul 26, 2008 Posts: 14
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(Msg. 12) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 1:00 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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JJ wrote:
> On Aug 14, 6:00 am, CJ Buyers <susuha....RemoveThis@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> Are you saying that the C of E was not set up because Henry VIII
>> wanted to divorce his wife and because he hated Catholics, as Tolkien
>> claimed?
>>
>
> Henry didn't hate Catholics; he was one doctrinally. The hatred of
> Catholics came a generation later, after the Marian persecutions.
And was reinforced by:
the pope offering a free pardon to anyone who assassinated Elizabeth,
the Armada,
the Babington Plot,
the Gunpowder Plot,
and, a century or so later, by the Jacobite rebellions.
--
John W. Kennedy
"...when you're trying to build a house of cards, the last thing you
should do is blow hard and wave your hands like a madman."
-- Rupert Goodwins >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Jul 21, 2007 Posts: 11
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(Msg. 13) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:21 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Stan Brown wrote:
> Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) from CJ Buyers
> <susuhanan DeleteThis @hotmail.co.uk>:
>> I think you and Tolkien need a spell in junior school. According to my
>> understanding of history, the Anglican Church wasn't founded because
>> of any hatred for the Roman Catholic Church but because Henry VIII
>> wanted to divorce his then wife.
>
> According to /1066 and All That/, the Pope and all his followers
> seceded from the Church of England.
>
> But, joking aside, persecution of Catholics followed pretty quickly
> after the founding of the C of E. When he nationalized the
> monasteries, Henry was committed, and so were the nobility who bought
> former Church lands. There were religious persecutions in the next
> several reigns (though during Mary's it went the opposite direction),
> and as someone has already pointed out, Catholics were denied full
> civil rights for three centuries after Henry's reign.
>
> I've always thought Tolkien indulged a little bit of a martyr
> complex, claiming that his mother had in essence died for her faith.
> But just because he exaggerated the persecution (if he did) doesn't
> mean that there was none.
We now know that Tolkien's mother died of complications arising from
diabetes. Not much was known about this at the time - it was some years
before Banting et.al. discovered insulin.
--
John Wright
"What would happen if you eliminated the autism genes from the gene pool?
You would have a bunch of people standing around in a cave, chatting and
socialising and not getting anything done!" - Professor Temple Grandin >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Apr 06, 2004 Posts: 6
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(Msg. 14) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 3:21 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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John Wright wrote:
> Stan Brown wrote:
>> Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) from CJ Buyers
>> <susuhanan.TakeThisOut@hotmail.co.uk>:
>>> I think you and Tolkien need a spell in junior school. According to my
>>> understanding of history, the Anglican Church wasn't founded because
>>> of any hatred for the Roman Catholic Church but because Henry VIII
>>> wanted to divorce his then wife.
>>
>> According to /1066 and All That/, the Pope and all his followers
>> seceded from the Church of England.
>>
>> But, joking aside, persecution of Catholics followed pretty quickly
>> after the founding of the C of E. When he nationalized the
>> monasteries, Henry was committed, and so were the nobility who bought
>> former Church lands. There were religious persecutions in the next
>> several reigns (though during Mary's it went the opposite direction),
>> and as someone has already pointed out, Catholics were denied full
>> civil rights for three centuries after Henry's reign.
>>
>> I've always thought Tolkien indulged a little bit of a martyr complex,
>> claiming that his mother had in essence died for her faith. But just
>> because he exaggerated the persecution (if he did) doesn't mean that
>> there was none.
>
> We now know that Tolkien's mother died of complications arising from
> diabetes. Not much was known about this at the time - it was some years
> before Banting et.al. discovered insulin.
>
>
>
Getting back to the original question...
Do you believe a primary reason for Tolkien being limited to a
"Commander" rather than "Sir" J.R.R. is his Catholic allegiance?
Gary >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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Since: Jul 21, 2007 Posts: 11
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(Msg. 15) Posted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 5:05 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.] Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Gary wrote:
>
>
> John Wright wrote:
>> Stan Brown wrote:
>>> Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:05:42 -0700 (PDT) from CJ Buyers
>>> <susuhanan RemoveThis @hotmail.co.uk>:
>>>> I think you and Tolkien need a spell in junior school. According to my
>>>> understanding of history, the Anglican Church wasn't founded because
>>>> of any hatred for the Roman Catholic Church but because Henry VIII
>>>> wanted to divorce his then wife.
>>>
>>> According to /1066 and All That/, the Pope and all his followers
>>> seceded from the Church of England.
>>>
>>> But, joking aside, persecution of Catholics followed pretty quickly
>>> after the founding of the C of E. When he nationalized the
>>> monasteries, Henry was committed, and so were the nobility who bought
>>> former Church lands. There were religious persecutions in the next
>>> several reigns (though during Mary's it went the opposite direction),
>>> and as someone has already pointed out, Catholics were denied full
>>> civil rights for three centuries after Henry's reign.
>>>
>>> I've always thought Tolkien indulged a little bit of a martyr
>>> complex, claiming that his mother had in essence died for her faith.
>>> But just because he exaggerated the persecution (if he did) doesn't
>>> mean that there was none.
>>
>> We now know that Tolkien's mother died of complications arising from
>> diabetes. Not much was known about this at the time - it was some
>> years before Banting et.al. discovered insulin.
>>
> Getting back to the original question...
> Do you believe a primary reason for Tolkien being limited to a
> "Commander" rather than "Sir" J.R.R. is his Catholic allegiance?
It may well be - there is still a law in the UK which prevents the heir
to the throne marrying a Roman Catholic, as well as many others. There
is the establishment of the CofE to consider as well.
--
John Wright
"What would happen if you eliminated the autism genes from the gene pool?
You would have a bunch of people standing around in a cave, chatting and
socialising and not getting anything done!" - Professor Temple Grandin >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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