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External
Since: May 17, 2008
Posts: 15
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(Msg. 31) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 6:52 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>talk>royalty, others (more info?)
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Gary <specializedallez DeleteThis @yahoo.com> writes:
> Getting back to the original question...
> Do you believe a primary reason for Tolkien being limited to a
> "Commander" rather than "Sir" J.R.R. is his Catholic allegiance?
No. Why do you think he should have received one?
"merit" knighthoods (as opposed to political or government-service
ones) usually come towards the end, or at least the middle, of a life
of continuing great achievement. Publishing one successful book
doesn't really cut it!
The only recent example I can think of of a knighthood being awarded
essentially for a single achievement is Andrew Wiles - but that was
some achievement... |
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External
Since: Feb 19, 2004
Posts: 372
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(Msg. 32) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:01 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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In message <news:e7SdnYpHGOjHazXVnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@comcast.com>
Flame of the West <SPAM_ME_NOT_jsolinas.RemoveThis@comcast.net>
spoke these staves:
>
Hey Flame! Darned good to see you 'round again 
> But it should be mentioned that it was the general European
> appetite for religious persecution that so disgusted the framers
> of the U.S. Constitution that the they separated church and state.
We all have our cross to bear, but when it comes to persecution and
animosity we (the Europeans) have always been very good at finding
figurative fig-leaves to excuse our behaviour. The best that can be
said is that we seem to have grown wiser (at least in the western part)
in the last half-century or so (though I guess I shouldn't boast -- my
own country has settled for religious freedom, turning our back on such
foreign ideas as religious equality).
> Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
The poor little blighters . . . but I suppose we should pity
them: imagine being stuck with just reality <shudders>
--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.
If no thought
your mind does visit,
make your speech
not too explicit.
- Piet Hein, /The Case for Obscurity/ |
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External
Since: Aug 05, 2006
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 33) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:01 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:e7SdnYpHGOjHazXVnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@comcast.com>
> Flame of the West <SPAM_ME_NOT_jsolinas DeleteThis @comcast.net>
> spoke these staves:
(snip)
>> Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
>
> The poor little blighters . . . but I suppose we should pity
> them: imagine being stuck with just reality <shudders>
>
Reality? I've long since given up on that one -- the plot
and the characters just aren't at all believable! >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Jul 18, 2008
Posts: 73
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(Msg. 34) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:52 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Julian Bradfield" <jcb RemoveThis @inf.ed.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet
news:e6cej4myzw0.fsf@krk.inf.ed.ac.uk...
[snip]
> No. Why do you think he should have received one?
> "merit" knighthoods (as opposed to political or government-service
> ones) usually come towards the end, or at least the middle, of a life
> of continuing great achievement. Publishing one successful book
> doesn't really cut it!
I agree. We Tolkienistas tend to overrate Tolkien's importance to the rest
of the world. Of course, by now LotR is so big that he probably *would* get
a knighthood if he had done an Old Took and still been around. But that
wasn't the case in his lifetime.
Öjevind >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Jul 18, 2008
Posts: 73
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(Msg. 35) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:00 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Flame of the West" <SPAM_ME_NOT_jsolinas.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> skrev i meddelandet
news:e7SdnYpHGOjHazXVnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@comcast.com...
> Really? There were still stake-burnings in the 19th Century?
Don't quibble. You are a perfect representative of the "Oh, my religion is
the most persecuted one of them all", crowd. I expressly asked people not to
play that game, and everybody acceded until you suddenly jumped in.
>> Let's not start a game of "Who is the bigger martyr".
>
> OK, since only you have brought up the Catholic countries; the rest of
> the thread is about persecution of English Catholics by the Anglicans.
Nope. There was also quite a lot about the persecution of English
Protestants by Catholics. Rather typically for you, you simply ignored that.
> But it should be mentioned that it was the general European appetite
> for religious persecution that so disgusted the framers of the U.S.
> Constitution that the they separated church and state.
You are mistaken. The U. S. constitution could not establish any church
since different religions dominated in different parts of he country.
Öjevind >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Jul 18, 2008
Posts: 73
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(Msg. 36) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 9:04 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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"Troels Forchhammer" <Troels.RemoveThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> skrev i meddelandet
news:Xns9AFECBB715763T.Forch@130.133.1.4...
[snip]
> We all have our cross to bear, but when it comes to persecution and
> animosity we (the Europeans) have always been very good at finding
> figurative fig-leaves to excuse our behaviour. The best that can be
> said is that we seem to have grown wiser (at least in the western part)
> in the last half-century or so (though I guess I shouldn't boast -- my
> own country has settled for religious freedom, turning our back on such
> foreign ideas as religious equality).
It is rather ironical that while Europeans have acquired more civilized
attitudes, religious fanaticism and fundamentalism have become rife in the
United States. Let's hope it's just a passing phase. Let's hope that one day
an atheist or someone who openly shows his religious indifference can get
elected to a political post there.
Öjevind >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 37) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:43 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Öjevind Lång wrote:
> It is rather ironical that while Europeans have acquired more civilized
> attitudes, religious fanaticism and fundamentalism have become rife in
> the United States.
It really hasn't, at least in day-to-day life. Have you been here
lately? Don't judge us from media accounts.
> Let's hope it's just a passing phase. Let's hope that
> one day an atheist or someone who openly shows his religious
> indifference can get elected to a political post there.
You Europeans don't know what you're missing. It's such fun to watch
our politicians get caught in sexual scandals after putting themselves
forward as model family men. The recent John Edwards fiasco is simply
hilarious. And did your media cover our Senator-in-a-men's-room? That
still brings a chuckle. But it's no fun if there's no hypocrisy.
--
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 38) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:57 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Öjevind Lång wrote:
> You are a perfect representative of the "Oh, my religion
> is the most persecuted one of them all", crowd.
I wouldn't venture to compare my religion with, say, Tibetan Buddhism.
Now there's a persecuted religion. The only persecution of Christianity
in the West today is from the crowd that thinks that advocating
traditional morality is a form of hate speech that must be prosecuted.
That's happened in Canada and Sweden IIRC.
> I expressly asked people
> not to play that game, and everybody acceded until you suddenly jumped in.
Actually, you pulled your old trick of making a controversial assertion
and in the next sentence asking everyone to drop the subject. It's
funny: I drop in to see how things are going, and the same old things
are going on! It's so nostalgic.
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Aug 18, 2008
Posts: 1
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(Msg. 39) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:06 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Julian Bradfield <jcb RemoveThis @inf.ed.ac.uk> writes:
> No. Why do you think he should have received one?
> "merit" knighthoods (as opposed to political or government-service
> ones) usually come towards the end, or at least the middle, of a life
> of continuing great achievement. Publishing one successful book
> doesn't really cut it!
Walter Raleigh, who had the 'other' Merton professorship a generation
before Tolkien, was knighted. As far as I know he didn't do much other
than profess and write learned books on English poets and novelists.
I can't think of any other Oxford English professors who were, though.
Maybe having the right name is a key factor.
-M- >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 263
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(Msg. 40) Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2008 11:47 pm
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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Öjevind Lång wrote:
> "Julian Bradfield" <jcb.RemoveThis@inf.ed.ac.uk> skrev i meddelandet
> news:e6cej4myzw0.fsf@krk.inf.ed.ac.uk...
>
> [snip]
>
>> No. Why do you think he should have received one?
>> "merit" knighthoods (as opposed to political or government-service
>> ones) usually come towards the end, or at least the middle, of a life
>> of continuing great achievement. Publishing one successful book
>> doesn't really cut it!
>
> I agree. We Tolkienistas tend to overrate Tolkien's importance to the rest
> of the world.
I agree that Tolkien's work probably didn't rate a Knighthood, but it's
pretty insulting to call it "one successful book". It was, after all, 2
very successful books (even if you consider LOTR just one book - you could
just as easily call it 4 or 7) during his lifetime, a considerable body of
other work, and one more very successful book posthumously.
--
derek >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 263
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(Msg. 41) Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Flame of the West wrote:
> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>
>> It is rather ironical that while Europeans have acquired more civilized
>> attitudes, religious fanaticism and fundamentalism have become rife in
>> the United States.
>
> It really hasn't, at least in day-to-day life. Have you been here
> lately?
I have. It really has.
--
derek >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 42) Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:15 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Derek Broughton wrote:
> Flame of the West wrote:
>
>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>
>>> It is rather ironical that while Europeans have acquired more civilized
>>> attitudes, religious fanaticism and fundamentalism have become rife in
>>> the United States.
>> It really hasn't, at least in day-to-day life. Have you been here
>> lately?
>
> I have. It really has.
>
I'm interested to know in what way you saw that. I don't have the
feeling of being surrounded by fundamentalists and fanatics in my
everyday life. Mind you, I spend most of my time on the coasts, so
maybe it's different elsewhere. Where have you visited, and what have
you seen that convinced you that they have become rife?
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Dec 23, 2007
Posts: 51
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(Msg. 43) Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 1:36 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)
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Troels Forchhammer wrote:
> In message <news:e7SdnYpHGOjHazXVnZ2dnUVZ_tXinZ2d@comcast.com>
> Flame of the West <SPAM_ME_NOT_jsolinas DeleteThis @comcast.net>
> spoke these staves:
>
> Hey Flame! Darned good to see you 'round again
Thanx! Good to be back. How are things around here?
>> Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth.
>
> The poor little blighters . . . but I suppose we should pity
> them: imagine being stuck with just reality <shudders>
Brrrr! Scary thought!
-- FotW
Reality is for those who cannot cope with Middle-earth. >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Jan 28, 2005
Posts: 263
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(Msg. 44) Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 2:59 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: rec>arts>books>tolkien (more info?)
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Flame of the West wrote:
> Derek Broughton wrote:
>> Flame of the West wrote:
>>
>>> Öjevind Lång wrote:
>>>
>>>> It is rather ironical that while Europeans have acquired more civilized
>>>> attitudes, religious fanaticism and fundamentalism have become rife in
>>>> the United States.
>>> It really hasn't, at least in day-to-day life. Have you been here
>>> lately?
>>
>> I have. It really has.
>>
>
> I'm interested to know in what way you saw that. I don't have the
> feeling of being surrounded by fundamentalists and fanatics in my
> everyday life.
I wouldn't say I have ever felt surrounded by fanatics (except perhaps when
I was one...) but fundamentalists, very much so. In Michigan when I was
living there, it seemed as basic as the right to bear arms for a large
percentage of the people I worked with. In Canada, it's also as basic as
the right to bear arms... thankfully.
--
derek >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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External
Since: Jul 18, 2007
Posts: 76
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(Msg. 45) Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:45 am
Post subject: Re: why not "Sir? [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: alt>talk>royalty, others (more info?)
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On Mon, 18 Aug 2008 23:06:57 GMT, Matthew Woodcraft
<matthew.RemoveThis@woodcraft.me.uk> wrote:
>
>Julian Bradfield <jcb.RemoveThis@inf.ed.ac.uk> writes:
>> No. Why do you think he should have received one?
>> "merit" knighthoods (as opposed to political or government-service
>> ones) usually come towards the end, or at least the middle, of a life
>> of continuing great achievement. Publishing one successful book
>> doesn't really cut it!
>
>Walter Raleigh, who had the 'other' Merton professorship a generation
>before Tolkien, was knighted. As far as I know he didn't do much other
>than profess and write learned books on English poets and novelists.
>
>I can't think of any other Oxford English professors who were, though.
>Maybe having the right name is a key factor.
No disrespect to JRRT, but maybe actually writing "learned books on
English poets and novelists", or whatever JRRT was supposed to be
doing academically, would have helped. It's been a while since I read
the biography, but my impression was that JRRT was a world-class
procrastinator. Sounds like Raleigh wasn't.
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature." >> Stay informed about: why not "Sir? |
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