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dsample

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 270



(Msg. 1) Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:53 pm
Post subject: Storm from the Shadows, Chapter 2 comment
Archived from groups: alt>books>david-weber (more info?)

Once again David uses a ridiculous level of precision in his numbers:

the steadily accelerating units of Bogey Two overflew them at
a relative velocity of 19,838 KPS. At that closure rate, Bogey
Two had exactly 1.2 minutes to detect and react to them before
they found themselves half a million kilometers behind Bogey
Two . . . and launched.

The last two digits of that "19,838" change in the time it takes to read
it, and was that 19,838 KPS at the time the Havenites detected the pods,
a million kms ahead of them, or 19,838 KPS when they launched 1.2
minutes later or was that the average velocity over the the 1.2
minutes...

And then there's the fact that the pods weren't all dropped at the same
time, so they're all going to be travelling at different speeds
themselves, with a difference of hundreds of KPS between the first and
the last pods dropped...

Any number given to that level of precision is pretty much guaranteed to
be wrong. It may be right for about 1/5 of a second when comparing the
velocity of one pod against one ship at some time during that 1.2 minute
window, but that only covers about 0.3% of the time window given. (Or
if I was inclined to use similarly ludicrous precision, 0.27778% of the
time.)

That's almost as bad as the part in OBS when Rafe is verbally giving
"time to grav lance range" in hundredths of a second.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

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rlbell.nsuid

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Since: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 59



(Msg. 2) Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:58 am
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On Jul 14, 8:53 pm, Don Sample <dsam... DeleteThis @synapse.net> wrote:
> Once again David uses a ridiculous level of precision in his numbers:
>
> the steadily accelerating units of Bogey Two overflew them at
> a relative velocity of 19,838 KPS. At that closure rate, Bogey
> Two had exactly 1.2 minutes to detect and react to them before
> they found themselves half a million kilometers behind Bogey
> Two . . . and launched.
>
> The last two digits of that "19,838" change in the time it takes to read
> it, and was that 19,838 KPS at the time the Havenites detected the pods,
> a million kms ahead of them, or 19,838 KPS when they launched 1.2
> minutes later or was that the average velocity over the the 1.2
> minutes...
>
> And then there's the fact that the pods weren't all dropped at the same
> time, so they're all going to be travelling at different speeds
> themselves, with a difference of hundreds of KPS between the first and
> the last pods dropped...
>
> Any number given to that level of precision is pretty much guaranteed to
> be wrong. It may be right for about 1/5 of a second when comparing the
> velocity of one pod against one ship at some time during that 1.2 minute
> window, but that only covers about 0.3% of the time window given. (Or
> if I was inclined to use similarly ludicrous precision, 0.27778% of the
> time.)
>
> That's almost as bad as the part in OBS when Rafe is verbally giving
> "time to grav lance range" in hundredths of a second.
>
> --
> Quando omni flunkus moritati
> Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>


Based on my experience bench testing line protection relays, 0.4
seconds can seem like a long time if you have to wait for it, but do
not have the luxury of doing something else in the mean time. He
could be accused of a significant digit problem. If he wrote 1.2
minutes, he should have written 20,000 kps, as then they would both be
accurate to 2 significant digits. I, personally, do not like to mix
time units, so I would have used 72 seconds in place of 1.2 minutes.

The stuff is written to be entertaining. If you expect him to plot
things out on a sheet of paper and integrate the vectors to help him
get all of the distances and times to work out, you are asking too
much. I should know, because I am sufficiently anally retentive to do
it, and it is part of the reason that I cannot get anything past the
rough draft stage (but my numbers do all come out right). As someone
has already written "The Cold Equations", my career as a science
fiction writer will probably not happen.

Rafe verbally giving a charge time to hundredths is a brain fart. If
someone had to coordinate with the charge time (or set a timer), he
should have said ' time to charge is xxx seconds, on my mark . . .
(watching the countdown) . . Mark!'

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dsample

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Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 270



(Msg. 3) Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 3:32 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article
<4ce5b1f5-2ca5-4388-aafb-f564a0076634.TakeThisOut@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
"rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid.TakeThisOut@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> The stuff is written to be entertaining. If you expect him to plot
> things out on a sheet of paper and integrate the vectors to help him
> get all of the distances and times to work out, you are asking too
> much.

I think that Weber's problem *is* that he works all that stuff out on a
piece of paper (or in a spreadsheet, or whatever) and after multiplying
three numbers together, each with a precision of two significant digits,
he ends up five or six digits in his answer, and then gives them all,
rather than rounding the answer to two significant digits, like he
should have. He doesn't seem to realize that the error factors multiply
too, and if anything, he should be *less* precise when stating the final
answer than the least precise of all the numbers that went into it.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
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greylock

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Since: Jul 24, 2008
Posts: 2



(Msg. 4) Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:45 pm
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:32:11 -0400, Don Sample <dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net>
wrote:

>In article
><4ce5b1f5-2ca5-4388-aafb-f564a0076634.DeleteThis@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid.DeleteThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> The stuff is written to be entertaining. If you expect him to plot
>> things out on a sheet of paper and integrate the vectors to help him
>> get all of the distances and times to work out, you are asking too
>> much.
>
>I think that Weber's problem *is* that he works all that stuff out on a
>piece of paper (or in a spreadsheet, or whatever) and after multiplying
>three numbers together, each with a precision of two significant digits,
>he ends up five or six digits in his answer, and then gives them all,
>rather than rounding the answer to two significant digits, like he
>should have. He doesn't seem to realize that the error factors multiply
>too, and if anything, he should be *less* precise when stating the final
>answer than the least precise of all the numbers that went into it.


If a person is looking at a digital display and reading off the number
- he will almost always read off the number exactly as it appears on
the display.

He will not - in my experience EVER - truncate the digits to reflect
the "significant digits" of accuracy.

I am a Control System Engineer professionally and I work with displays
and operators frequently, and believe me - if it shows in the display
it WILL get read out when the person verbalizes the display.

I'm not arguing in the least that it is correct - but it seems to be
the way the human mind does things.

But I certainly agree that the stories are written to be enjoyed and
this really does constitute a "quibble".
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dsample

External


Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 270



(Msg. 5) Posted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:08 pm
Post subject: Re: Storm from the Shadows, Chapter 2 comment [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <038i84ljr4bks2if4tbb8e09hjghuv4lmm RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
greylock <silveraxe RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:32:11 -0400, Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net>
> wrote:
>
> >In article
> ><4ce5b1f5-2ca5-4388-aafb-f564a0076634 RemoveThis @b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
> > "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> The stuff is written to be entertaining. If you expect him to plot
> >> things out on a sheet of paper and integrate the vectors to help him
> >> get all of the distances and times to work out, you are asking too
> >> much.
> >
> >I think that Weber's problem *is* that he works all that stuff out on a
> >piece of paper (or in a spreadsheet, or whatever) and after multiplying
> >three numbers together, each with a precision of two significant digits,
> >he ends up five or six digits in his answer, and then gives them all,
> >rather than rounding the answer to two significant digits, like he
> >should have. He doesn't seem to realize that the error factors multiply
> >too, and if anything, he should be *less* precise when stating the final
> >answer than the least precise of all the numbers that went into it.
>
>
> If a person is looking at a digital display and reading off the number
> - he will almost always read off the number exactly as it appears on
> the display.
>
> He will not - in my experience EVER - truncate the digits to reflect
> the "significant digits" of accuracy.
>
> I am a Control System Engineer professionally and I work with displays
> and operators frequently, and believe me - if it shows in the display
> it WILL get read out when the person verbalizes the display.
>
> I'm not arguing in the least that it is correct - but it seems to be
> the way the human mind does things.
>
> But I certainly agree that the stories are written to be enjoyed and
> this really does constitute a "quibble".

When someone asks you the time, do you look at your digital watch, and
give the time, to the second? I usually round to the nearest 5 minutes.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
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Terry FitzSimons

External


Since: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 9



(Msg. 6) Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:31 pm
Post subject: Re: Storm from the Shadows, Chapter 2 comment [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 19:45:26 -0500, greylock <silveraxe.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:

>On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:32:11 -0400, Don Sample <dsample.RemoveThis@synapse.net>
>wrote:
>
>>In article
>><4ce5b1f5-2ca5-4388-aafb-f564a0076634.RemoveThis@b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>> "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid.RemoveThis@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The stuff is written to be entertaining. If you expect him to plot
>>> things out on a sheet of paper and integrate the vectors to help him
>>> get all of the distances and times to work out, you are asking too
>>> much.
>>
>>I think that Weber's problem *is* that he works all that stuff out on a
>>piece of paper (or in a spreadsheet, or whatever) and after multiplying
>>three numbers together, each with a precision of two significant digits,
>>he ends up five or six digits in his answer, and then gives them all,
>>rather than rounding the answer to two significant digits, like he
>>should have. He doesn't seem to realize that the error factors multiply
>>too, and if anything, he should be *less* precise when stating the final
>>answer than the least precise of all the numbers that went into it.
>
>
>If a person is looking at a digital display and reading off the number
>- he will almost always read off the number exactly as it appears on
>the display.
>
>He will not - in my experience EVER - truncate the digits to reflect
>the "significant digits" of accuracy.
>
>I am a Control System Engineer professionally and I work with displays
>and operators frequently, and believe me - if it shows in the display
>it WILL get read out when the person verbalizes the display.
>
>I'm not arguing in the least that it is correct - but it seems to be
>the way the human mind does things.
>
>But I certainly agree that the stories are written to be enjoyed and
>this really does constitute a "quibble".

"Well excuse me, but those numbers should not be there if they are not
important to someone."
--

Terry FitzSimons
FITZSIMONS.RemoveThis@MINTEL.NET(Small Letters Only)
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Terry FitzSimons

External


Since: Mar 07, 2008
Posts: 9



(Msg. 7) Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 12:41 pm
Post subject: Re: Storm from the Shadows, Chapter 2 comment [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:08:42 -0400, Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net> wrote:

>In article <038i84ljr4bks2if4tbb8e09hjghuv4lmm RemoveThis @4ax.com>,
> greylock <silveraxe RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:32:11 -0400, Don Sample <dsample RemoveThis @synapse.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >In article
>> ><4ce5b1f5-2ca5-4388-aafb-f564a0076634 RemoveThis @b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>,
>> > "rlbell.nsuid@gmail.com" <rlbell.nsuid RemoveThis @gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> The stuff is written to be entertaining. If you expect him to plot
>> >> things out on a sheet of paper and integrate the vectors to help him
>> >> get all of the distances and times to work out, you are asking too
>> >> much.
>> >
>> >I think that Weber's problem *is* that he works all that stuff out on a
>> >piece of paper (or in a spreadsheet, or whatever) and after multiplying
>> >three numbers together, each with a precision of two significant digits,
>> >he ends up five or six digits in his answer, and then gives them all,
>> >rather than rounding the answer to two significant digits, like he
>> >should have. He doesn't seem to realize that the error factors multiply
>> >too, and if anything, he should be *less* precise when stating the final
>> >answer than the least precise of all the numbers that went into it.
>>
>>
>> If a person is looking at a digital display and reading off the number
>> - he will almost always read off the number exactly as it appears on
>> the display.
>>
>> He will not - in my experience EVER - truncate the digits to reflect
>> the "significant digits" of accuracy.
>>
>> I am a Control System Engineer professionally and I work with displays
>> and operators frequently, and believe me - if it shows in the display
>> it WILL get read out when the person verbalizes the display.
>>
>> I'm not arguing in the least that it is correct - but it seems to be
>> the way the human mind does things.
>>
>> But I certainly agree that the stories are written to be enjoyed and
>> this really does constitute a "quibble".
>
>When someone asks you the time, do you look at your digital watch, and
>give the time, to the second? I usually round to the nearest 5 minutes.

Depends on the watch and the reason. I used to have a digital that had
really small numbers for seconds. I would not be wearing it to work if I
need to keep track of the seconds as they crawled by. If I was talking to
someone and could hear the automatic clock in the background I might
interject my time if I thought it was necessary (Old style Teletype Van,
listening to the atomic clock transmission, I logged the time change in the
van clock if it was off as the transmission log was kept in HH:MM:SS
format). But I usually round to the nearest minuet, as I set mine by one
of the several atomic wall clocks every month or so.
--

Terry FitzSimons
FITZSIMONS RemoveThis @MINTEL.NET(Small Letters Only)
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Gunfighter40

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Since: Dec 18, 2007
Posts: 7



(Msg. 8) Posted: Fri Jul 25, 2008 8:03 pm
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Here's an example of anal precision - on our semi-annual tac evals we
were given individual time-on-target times with an allowable tolerance
plus or minus one minute. (This was for deconfliction when under
actual war-time conditions ) Of course we competed so see who could
get the closest to the actual TOT. Pus or minus 5 seconds wasn't too
hard to achieve even at an attack speed of 500 knots.
As for DW's 11000+ KPS, I wonder what the ship speed is measured by;
without reference to a known object about all they have to go by is
some sort of inertial device, and those will always have some sort of
unavoidable built-in error.
MY one objection is those million-missile salvos. Even at a million
bucks a shot (cheap!) a trillion bucks a salvo doesn't sound
reasonable at all.
Walt BJ
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Brian McDonald

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Since: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 180



(Msg. 9) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 12:28 am
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 22:08:42 -0400, Don Sample <dsample.TakeThisOut@synapse.net>
wrote:


>
>When someone asks you the time, do you look at your digital watch, and
>give the time, to the second? I usually round to the nearest 5 minutes.

to be fair do you need more precision than that? a navy officer
timing some evolution or missile launch probably needs things cut a
bit finer than 5 min.
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Loren Pechtel

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Since: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 342



(Msg. 10) Posted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 11:25 am
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On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:03:52 -0700 (PDT), Gunfighter40
<waltbj01.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:

>MY one objection is those million-missile salvos. Even at a million
>bucks a shot (cheap!) a trillion bucks a salvo doesn't sound
>reasonable at all.

It was something like a million missiles involved in the big battle.
That was the clash of the fleets of two interstellar empires with
economies far more productive than ours. It's quite possible.
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phamp

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Since: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 296



(Msg. 11) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:10 pm
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I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Loren Pechtel
<lorenpechtel.DeleteThis@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote on Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:25:25
-0700 in alt.books.david-weber :
>On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:03:52 -0700 (PDT), Gunfighter40
><waltbj01.DeleteThis@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>MY one objection is those million-missile salvos. Even at a million
>>bucks a shot (cheap!) a trillion bucks a salvo doesn't sound
>>reasonable at all.
>
>It was something like a million missiles involved in the big battle.
>That was the clash of the fleets of two interstellar empires with
>economies far more productive than ours. It's quite possible.

The real question, when it comes to military expenditures is "how
much is victory worth?"
Unless you intend victory, and the defeat of your enemies, why
spend a lot of money on it in the first place?

Manticore has the money and resources to spend big bucks to offset
their disadvantages. Haven is having to 'think smart' and use
manpower to overcome their negative tech edge.


tschus
pyotr
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
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rlbell.nsuid

External


Since: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 59



(Msg. 12) Posted: Wed Aug 06, 2008 11:35 pm
Post subject: Re: Storm from the Shadows, Chapter 2 comment [Login to view extended thread Info.]
Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

On Aug 6, 6:10 pm, pyotr filipivich <ph... RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
> I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Loren Pechtel
> <lorenpech... RemoveThis @hotmail.invalid.com> wrote on Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:25:25
> -0700 in alt.books.david-weber :
>
> >On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:03:52 -0700 (PDT), Gunfighter40
> ><waltb... RemoveThis @mindspring.com> wrote:
>
> >>MY one objection is those million-missile salvos. Even at a million
> >>bucks a shot (cheap!) a trillion bucks a salvo doesn't sound
> >>reasonable at all.
>
> >It was something like a million missiles involved in the big battle.
> >That was the clash of the fleets of two interstellar empires with
> >economies far more productive than ours. It's quite possible.
>
> The real question, when it comes to military expenditures is "how
> much is victory worth?"
> Unless you intend victory, and the defeat of your enemies, why
> spend a lot of money on it in the first place?
>
> Manticore has the money and resources to spend big bucks to offset
> their disadvantages. Haven is having to 'think smart' and use
> manpower to overcome their negative tech edge.
>

Haven is in the marvelous position of being able to employ Stalin's
maxim: Quantity has a quality all its own.

Haven cannot build a ship as fast as Manticore, but it can have more
on the go at any given time. Haven's losses, as horrific as they are,
do not exceed their building capacity. Manticore's economy has picked
the low-hanging fruit, the fruit from the middle branches, and is
working on the top limbs. Haven's productivity has gone from
pathetically low to mediochre, and still has many simple improvements
available to it, so Haven's economy is growing. Once Foraker figures
out how to shoehorn a grav-pulse transmitter into a missile frame,
both sides will have Apollo, and Manticores tech edge goes from great
strides to merely a few degrees (the combination of Moriarty and
Apollo would enable Haven to protect its spacebased industry from RMN
predations).
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rlbell.nsuid

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Since: Feb 27, 2007
Posts: 59



(Msg. 13) Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 12:14 am
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On Aug 7, 10:04 pm, Don Sample <dsam....RemoveThis@synapse.net> wrote:
> In article <been94tddurepcrviu4ttgff4t2l2dq....RemoveThis@4ax.com>,
> Brian McDonald <Brian_knowspam.McDon....RemoveThis@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>
> > there is a trite old expression something like the only thing more
> > expensive than winning a war is losing a war.
>
> Japan and Germany came out of pretty well in the aftermath of WW-II
>
Were it not for the Soviet Union being such a scary power, they might
have been left to rot. If the Depression had not been so bad, it
might have happened, anyways. The Marshall plan was a way to
kickstart the US peacetime economy by giving economically exhausted
countries the money to rebuild their industries (which would be spent
buying US goods).
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Brian McDonald

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Since: Dec 02, 2006
Posts: 180



(Msg. 14) Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:13 am
Post subject: Re: Storm from the Shadows, Chapter 2 comment [Login to view extended thread Info.]
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On Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:10:34 -0800, pyotr filipivich
<phamp.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:

>I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Loren Pechtel
><lorenpechtel.TakeThisOut@hotmail.invalid.com> wrote on Sat, 26 Jul 2008 11:25:25
>-0700 in alt.books.david-weber :
>>On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 20:03:52 -0700 (PDT), Gunfighter40
>><waltbj01.TakeThisOut@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
>>>MY one objection is those million-missile salvos. Even at a million
>>>bucks a shot (cheap!) a trillion bucks a salvo doesn't sound
>>>reasonable at all.
>>
>>It was something like a million missiles involved in the big battle.
>>That was the clash of the fleets of two interstellar empires with
>>economies far more productive than ours. It's quite possible.
>
> The real question, when it comes to military expenditures is "how
>much is victory worth?"
> Unless you intend victory, and the defeat of your enemies, why
>spend a lot of money on it in the first place?
>
> Manticore has the money and resources to spend big bucks to offset
>their disadvantages. Haven is having to 'think smart' and use
>manpower to overcome their negative tech edge.
>
>
>tschus
>pyotr


there is a trite old expression something like the only thing more
expensive than winning a war is losing a war.
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dsample

External


Since: Jul 01, 2004
Posts: 270



(Msg. 15) Posted: Fri Aug 08, 2008 3:13 am
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Archived from groups: per prev. post (more info?)

In article <been94tddurepcrviu4ttgff4t2l2dqfh3 DeleteThis @4ax.com>,
Brian McDonald <Brian_knowspam.McDonald DeleteThis @shaw.ca> wrote:

>
> there is a trite old expression something like the only thing more
> expensive than winning a war is losing a war.

Japan and Germany came out of pretty well in the aftermath of WW-II

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
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1632 Series personnal comment - Since I bought the first two hardcover's and subscriptions to the subsequent ebooks, I guess I should have the right to express a opinion, at least once. The first two books in the 1633 series were OK, but I've found the following material to be..

Who's In Command?! - So we have many examples of the bridge crew running simulated combat scenarios actually using the bridge rather than a simulator (a good idea - the simulator will be a generic thing and each bridge will have its 'personal' quirks). However, it does..

I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but... - ....War of Honor has to be the most turgid piece of fiction in any of the countless genres in which it fits. Not because Weber (like Forrester or Clancy or Tolstoy or (as of recent) Blumenthal) inundate the reader with page after page of unconscionably....

My book review - http://www.webleyweb.com/tle/libe231-20030713-03.html For those interested, my review of The Order of the Phoenix has finally been published. Warning: political content. Frank Ney N4ZHG WV/EMT-B NRA(L) GOA CCRKBA JPFO ProvNRA LPWV -- Harry Potter...

Hello and Welcome - Just wanted to drop a quick note to introduce myself and say hello. If you don't mind, I would like to hang around a bit and have some fun, meet some people and chat. -- ******************************************* Marcel Beaudoin & Moogli..
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