TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake

Raymond Daley wrote:
> I don't know if anyone's spotted this mistake yet but here goes.
> Terry is normally very good on his research but he well & truly screwed up
> on this one & I'm surprised I didn't spot it before.
>
> Page 239
>
> When Keith is talking to the Rat Piper & they give Keith a trombone to play
> it says he "pressed keys".
> Sorry Terry. A Trombone has NO KEYS! It has a slider. Not even a valve
> trombone has keys.
>
> No brass intrument I'm aware of has "keys", even trumpets & such use valves.
> A trombone has nothing to press, I should know as I learnt to play one when
> I was 10.
>
>
>
>
1. You should not assume that in translation from Discworld to
Roundworld everything is 100% identical!

2. It may be that you are being pedantic as after a quick Google I found
http://www.normans.co.uk/Image.aspx?URL=http://images.channeladvisor.c...Sell/SS
This shows a valve trombone with what look like keys to me . If
these are valves - stops - fruit bats - on spongles I don't care as to
many a man on the Clapham Omnibus they are keys.

3. That done your post could have enlightened us that there is such a
thing as a valve trombone (which I did not know - but knew that
trombones are called slide trombones which presumes another sort) and
that the valves are probably what are erroneously (allowing for DW to RW
change of parlance) referred to as keys.

--
Reader in Invisible Writings.. Something to Ponder upon!
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

"Raymond Daley" wrote in message

>I don't know if anyone's spotted this mistake yet but here goes.
> Terry is normally very good on his research but he well & truly screwed up
> on this one & I'm surprised I didn't spot it before.
>
> Page 239
>
> When Keith is talking to the Rat Piper & they give Keith a trombone to
> play it says he "pressed keys".
> Sorry Terry. A Trombone has NO KEYS! It has a slider. Not even a valve
> trombone has keys.
>
> No brass intrument I'm aware of has "keys", even trumpets & such use
> valves.
> A trombone has nothing to press, I should know as I learnt to play one
> when I was 10.
>
>
>
In my copy "Keith took it, wiped the mouthpiece, put it to his mouth,
grasped the slider and then blew one long note." I assume this is the
sentence that you refered to?
Oh yes, I have the Corgi paperback.

Otto
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

"Otto" writes:

> In my copy "Keith took it, wiped the mouthpiece, put it to his mouth,
> grasped the slider and then blew one long note." I assume this is the
> sentence that you refered to?

In my first-edition hardback, it reads "Keith took it, wiped the
mouthpiece, put it to his mouth, pressed the keys a few times and then
blew one long note." So yes, it looks like this was an error that was
corrected in later editions.

--
Adam Sampson <http://offog.org/>
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

"Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
I suppose the valve actuators on a French horn could be called "keys".

no they can't. their valves. theres bloody HUGE difference between valves &
keys.
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

"Reader in Invisible Writings" wrote
> Raymond Daley wrote:
>> Not even a valve trombone has keys (NOTE USAGE OF WORDS VALVE TROMBONE!)
> 2. It may be that you are being pedantic as after a quick Google I found
> http://www.normans.co.uk/Image.aspx?URL=http://images.channeladvisor.c...Sell/SS
> This shows a valve trombone with what look like keys to me . If these
> are valves - stops - fruit bats - on spongles I don't care as to many a
> man on the Clapham Omnibus they are keys.
No they are valves. Not keys. Look at a piano, organ or accordian if you
want to see what keys look like.
> 3. That done your post could have enlightened us that there is such a
> thing as a valve trombone (
I DID mention the valve trombone! Look. I even edited to the bit where I
mentioned it!.
The things you see on that image of the valve trombone are still valves.
There is a HUGE difference between vavles and keys.
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

"Adam Sampson" wrote in message

> "Otto" writes:
>> In my copy "Keith took it, wiped the mouthpiece, put it to his mouth,
>> grasped the slider and then blew one long note." I assume this is the
>> sentence that you refered to?
> In my first-edition hardback, it reads "Keith took it, wiped the
> mouthpiece, put it to his mouth, pressed the keys a few times and then
> blew one long note." So yes, it looks like this was an error that was
> corrected in later editions.

Result!
Trombone. No keys.
"What a mistake-a to make-a!"
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

Raymond Daley wrote:
> "Reader in Invisible Writings" wrote
>> Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> Not even a valve trombone has keys (NOTE USAGE OF WORDS VALVE TROMBONE!)
>> 2. It may be that you are being pedantic as after a quick Google I found
>> http://www.normans.co.uk/Image.aspx?URL=http://images.channeladvisor.c...Sell/SS
>> This shows a valve trombone with what look like keys to me . If these
>> are valves - stops - fruit bats - on spongles I don't care as to many a
>> man on the Clapham Omnibus they are keys.
> No they are valves. Not keys. Look at a piano, organ or accordian if you
> want to see what keys look like.
To you - YES - to me and those without the specialist knowledge - NO.
The tops of the valves look just like old fashioned typewriter keys for
instance.
>> 3. That done your post could have enlightened us that there is such a
>> thing as a valve trombone (
> I DID mention the valve trombone! Look. I even edited to the bit where I
> mentioned it!.
As I noticed when I was replying - not on the initial read. My comment
was that you took a negative - nah nah de nah na attitude rather than a
helpful - well lookie here chaps one.
> The things you see on that image of the valve trombone are still valves.
> There is a HUGE difference between vavles and keys.
Not on this here Omnibus there 'aint. What do you call the lever
thingies on the big flute and recorder do dah's that cover holes your
fingers can't reach? Keys is what I would call 'em.
>

I would never criticise a fiction author who in a story referred to a
motorway crash barrier. There is no such thing. They used to be safety
fences and recently I found myself corrected as they are now safety
barriers. These are not the same as parapets or guardrail and to
highway engineers this is important. To Joe Public it is not.
>


--
Reader in Invisible Writings.. Something to Ponder upon!
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

Raymond Daley wrote:
> "Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
> I suppose the valve actuators on a French horn could be called "keys".
>
> no they can't. their valves. theres bloody HUGE difference between valves &
> keys.

Valves might be what make the note change, but keys might be a term for
the component between the fingers and the 'guts'. Whether that's a key
like a lever (which some musical instruments like clarinets have, in one
form or other) or just "the finger-sized tip of the valve mechanism" (no
less a 'key' as the things arrayed to allow my fingers to tap to create
this abomination of a message).


(And "They're valves", though I'm not overly happy about the
contraction, either. I can forgive your other errors, but that the
"their/there/they're" one makes my head hurt and I had to mention it.
Pedant's Curse rules doubtless apply.)
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

Raymond Daley wrote:
> "Reader in Invisible Writings" wrote
>> Raymond Daley wrote:
>>> Not even a valve trombone has keys (NOTE USAGE OF WORDS VALVE
>>> TROMBONE!)
>> 2. It may be that you are being pedantic as after a quick Google I
>> found
>> http://www.normans.co.uk/Image.aspx?URL=http://images.channeladvisor.c...Sell/SS
>> This shows a valve trombone with what look like keys to me . If
>> these are valves - stops - fruit bats - on spongles I don't care as
>> to many a man on the Clapham Omnibus they are keys.
> No they are valves. Not keys. Look at a piano, organ or accordian if
> you want to see what keys look like.

Or a xylophone[0], marimba, glockenspiel, vibraphone, etc....

>> 3. That done your post could have enlightened us that there is such a
>> thing as a valve trombone (
> I DID mention the valve trombone! Look. I even edited to the bit
> where I mentioned it!.
> The things you see on that image of the valve trombone are still
> valves. There is a HUGE difference between vavles and keys.

To a *musician*, yes there's a big difference. As the Reader says,
though, the average man on the street doesn't know (or care) about
the difference.

Another such mistake is in (from memory) RM, where Pterry writes
about a clicking noise and then has the characters utter phrases about
maracas [1]. As a percussionist, I know full-well that the intended
instrument is actually _castanets_ and that maracas don't make
clicking sounds.[2] The point, however, is that what's common
knowledge to a specialist in the field (a muso) might not be such
common knowledge to people not in the field.

I have no doubt whatsoever that Pterry could run rings around us
in any discussion about journalism for instance.

Geoff

[0] A word which many people incorrectly use to describe
what is actually a glockenspiel. "Xylos" is Greek for "tree",
according to a Greek percussionist I know.

[1] Death even says something like "I don't need maracas."

[2] This was discussed some years ago on either this
group or AFP.

--
Geoff Field
Professional Geek,
Amateur Stage-Levelling Gauge
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

Geoff Field wrote:
> Raymond Daley wrote:
>> The things you see on that image of the valve trombone are still
>> valves. There is a HUGE difference between vavles and keys.
What you press them to get different notes. Keyboards have keys
irrespective of how they get letters to appear.
>
> To a *musician*, yes there's a big difference. As the Reader says,
> though, the average man on the street doesn't know (or care) about
> the difference.
>
> Another such mistake is in (from memory) RM, where Pterry writes
> about a clicking noise and then has the characters utter phrases about
> maracas [1]. As a percussionist, I know full-well that the intended
> instrument is actually _castanets_ and that maracas don't make
> clicking sounds.[2] The point, however, is that what's common
> knowledge to a specialist in the field (a muso) might not be such
> common knowledge to people not in the field.

You are right - I thought "don't maracas rattle?" and moved on. Of
course it could have been all his joints cracking rather than his
fingers clicking.
>
> I have no doubt whatsoever that Pterry could run rings around us
> in any discussion about journalism for instance.
>
> Geoff
>
> [0] A word which many people incorrectly use to describe
> what is actually a glockenspiel. "Xylos" is Greek for "tree",
> according to a Greek percussionist I know.
>
> [1] Death even says something like "I don't need maracas."
Tis' true - incredibly like it.
>
> [2] This was discussed some years ago on either this
> group or AFP.
>


--
Reader in Invisible Writings.. Something to Ponder upon!
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

"Raymond Daley" writes:

> "Reader in Invisible Writings" wrote

>> This shows a valve trombone with what look like keys to me

> No they are valves. Not keys. Look at a piano, organ or accordian if you
> want to see what keys look like.

Hmmm... well, I will certainly cede the piano case to you. But an
organ? Or an accordian? If we accept the argument up thread that a
French Horn does not have keys to operate its valves, then are these
not likewise controls that open sections of pipe work for air to flow
through, and hence valves in exactly the same way that the controls on
a brass instrument are valves?

Contrarywise, if a key on a musical instrument is a short manually
operated lever[*] that operates some connected mechanism (hammer,
valve, electronic switch etc.) to generate or control the emission of
sound, then the French Horn and the Valve Trombone[!] have keys even
if they aren't /keyboard/ instruments. Also by this argument many
varieties of accordian technically don't have keys, although they
/are/ keyboard instruments.

This sort of confusion is what you get by applying common sense to
language rather than strict logic. And so tomtatoes are vegetables
and rhubarb is a fruit.

Cheers,

Matthew

[*] Because if you operate it with your foot, then it's a pedal[+].

[!] We haven't even started on the woodwinds yet. That's a whole other
sack of butt.

[+] but playing an 11 note chord on a piano does not make the 11th key
a nasal...

--
Dr Matthew J Seaman MA, D.Phil. 7 Priory Courtyard
Flat 3
PGP: http://www.infracaninophile.co.uk/pgpkey Ramsgate
Kent, CT11 9PW
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

Geoff Field wrote:

<snip>

> Another such mistake is in (from memory) RM, where Pterry writes
> about a clicking noise and then has the characters utter phrases about
> maracas [1]. As a percussionist, I know full-well that the intended
> instrument is actually _castanets_ and that maracas don't make
> clicking sounds.[2] The point, however, is that what's common
> knowledge to a specialist in the field (a muso) might not be such
> common knowledge to people not in the field.
>
> I have no doubt whatsoever that Pterry could run rings around us
> in any discussion about journalism for instance.
>
> Geoff
>
> [0] A word which many people incorrectly use to describe
> what is actually a glockenspiel. "Xylos" is Greek for "tree",
> according to a Greek percussionist I know.
>
> [1] Death even says something like "I don't need maracas."

Perhaps he was thinking of a quijada [1], the jawbone of a donkey? A
/dead/ donkey. The sound is that of the teeth rattling loose in their
sockets, now that the periodontal ligaments are gone. So that's why
Death doesn't need somebody else's jawbone, even if it is called by
another name, and it's still a funny line.

[1] Which I thought had another, better-known name, but I can't remember
it and Google is not my friend.

--
Lesley Weston

The addy above is real, but I won't see anything posted to it for a long
time. To reach me, use leswes att shaw dott ca, adjusting as necessary.
 >> Stay informed about: TAMAHER - pointing out a howler of a mistake 

Len Oil wrote:

> Raymond Daley wrote:
> > "Cindy Hamilton" wrote in message
> > I suppose the valve actuators on a French horn could be called "keys".
> >
> > no they can't. their valves. theres bloody HUGE difference between valves &
> > keys.
>
> Valves might be what make the note change, but keys might be a term for
> the component between the fingers and the 'guts'.

It might, but it isn't, just as the term for the things I'm typing on
now might be buttons, but isn't.

Richard, ex-brassplayer
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