Thrint Question

Erik Max Francis wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
>
> > PP 36 of paperback World of Ptavvs: A Kzanol/Greenberg flashback says
> > that "Whitefoods" (AKA Bandersnatchi) were eaten by Tnuctipun.
> >
> > P 49: Kzanol/Greenberg begins to realize that Whitefoods/Bandersnatchi
> > are intelligent. He later speculates that the Tnuctipun created them as
> > spies. I find it intriguing that Bandersnatchi would spy for beings
> > that EAT them! That's like a cow spying for humans!
>
> Why not read the whole book all the way through before posting to
> comment on it?

According to the The Up To Date Known Space Chronology
(http://www.chronology.org/niven/timeline.html), the Bandersnatchi did indeed
spy for the Tnuctipun.
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Tim Bruening wrote:
> norrin wrote:
> > On Jan 6, 3:29 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....RemoveThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> > > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> > > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> > > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> > > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
>
> > The Tnuctipun are vital to the Thrint economy. If they die,
> > the Thrint will waste away. For a long time, the Thrint had
> > no enemies and they lost the knack for self preservation.
>
> I have come up with a much better command for the Thrint to give: "Forget all
> thoughts of rebellion!".

The Thrint have the power to compel actions but not beliefs.
The Tnuctipun have no need for loyalty. They're already important,
there's no way to rise in the system without taking over. They
obey because they fear the Thrint.

The power works by causing animals to act and do what the
Thrint wants instead of their own wants. It's impossible to
give false beliefs to dumb animals or to someone who knows
more than the giver can imagine.

The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult to use
against an entire race. The Grogs have control without telepathy.
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

norrin wrote:


> The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult to use
> against an entire race. The Grogs have control without telepathy.

What? The Grogs certainly had telepathy, both send and receive, as well
as control.





Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
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norrin wrote:

> Tim Bruening wrote:
> > norrin wrote:
> > > On Jan 6, 3:29 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru... RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > > > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> > > > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> > > > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> > > > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> > > > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
> >
> > > The Tnuctipun are vital to the Thrint economy. If they die,
> > > the Thrint will waste away. For a long time, the Thrint had
> > > no enemies and they lost the knack for self preservation.
> >
> > I have come up with a much better command for the Thrint to give: "Forget all
> > thoughts of rebellion!".
>
> The Thrint have the power to compel actions but not beliefs.
> The Tnuctipun have no need for loyalty. They're already important,
> there's no way to rise in the system without taking over. They
> obey because they fear the Thrint.
>
> The power works by causing animals to act and do what the
> Thrint wants instead of their own wants. It's impossible to
> give false beliefs to dumb animals or to someone who knows
> more than the giver can imagine.
>
> The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult to use
> against an entire race.

That's what they had amplifier helmets for!
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Tim Bruening wrote:

> That's what they had amplifier helmets for!

Wow, it's almost like you're actually reading the stories now!

--
Erik Max Francis && max.RemoveThis@alcyone.com && http://www.alcyone.com/max/
San Jose, CA, USA && 37 18 N 121 57 W && AIM, Y!M erikmaxfrancis
I would rather understand one cause than be king of Persia.
-- Democritus
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Default User wrote:
> norrin wrote:
> > The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult to use
> > against an entire race. The Grogs have control without telepathy.
>
> What? The Grogs certainly had telepathy, both send and receive, as well
> as control.
>
> Brian

Telepathy in the narrow sense, they can send and receive. They show
no ability to discover hidden memories or to create hallucinations.
It's
possible they can, which is why humans don't trust them. It's possible
they can manipulate humans, there may be a grog conspiracy. Even
if there isn't the grogs know something they aren't telling.
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

On Jan 15, 12:11 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>
wrote:
> norrin wrote:
> > Tim Bruening wrote:
> > > norrin wrote:
> > > > On Jan 6, 3:29 am, Tim Bruening <tsbru....DeleteThis@pop.dcn.davis.ca.us> wrote:
> > > > > To put down the Tnuctipun uprising, the Thrint elders built a super
> > > > > duper amplifier helmet and used it to order everyone in the galaxy to
> > > > > commit suicide, including themselves. Why didn't the Thrint apply the
> > > > > suicide order only to the Tnuctipun? ("All Tnuctipun commit suicide at
> > > > > once. All other slaves take a one day nap").
>
> > > > The Tnuctipun are vital to the Thrint economy. If they die,
> > > > the Thrint will waste away. For a long time, the Thrint had
> > > > no enemies and they lost the knack for self preservation.
>
> > > I have come up with a much better command for the Thrint to give: "Forget all
> > > thoughts of rebellion!".
>
> > The Thrint have the power to compel actions but not beliefs.
> > The Tnuctipun have no need for loyalty. They're already important,
> > there's no way to rise in the system without taking over. They
> > obey because they fear the Thrint.
>
> > The power works by causing animals to act and do what the
> > Thrint wants instead of their own wants. It's impossible to
> > give false beliefs to dumb animals or to someone who knows
> > more than the giver can imagine.
>
> > The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult to use
> > against an entire race.
>
> That's what they had amplifier helmets for!

Telepaths have a hard time receiving from crowds. The noise is
too much to handle. If they use an amplifier they'll go deaf.
The amplifier wasn't headphones but a megaphone.

The Thrint developed technology to improve their own natural
ability to control. They didn't do as much with information
gathering technologies. The reason was the other races were
merely ptaavs, they were expendable.
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

In article <478B2893.701804B9 RemoveThis @pop.dcn.davis.ca.us>, Tim Bruening wrote:
> I find it intriguing that Bandersnatchi would spy for beings
> that EAT them! That's like a cow spying for humans!
>
Is that more or less intrusive than a cow producing milk for
human beings?
Considering that the Frumious Bandersnatch is far more the
product of design than a cow is, the Bandersnatch gets less choice than
the cow.

--
Aidan Karley,
Written at Tue, 15 Jan 2008 07:33 GMT, but posted later.
"Please turn your monitors off when you leave the building. Not only
does it save power, but the flickering of the monitors annoys the
pterosaur."
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

norrin wrote:

> Default User wrote:
> > norrin wrote:
> > > The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult to use
> > > against an entire race. The Grogs have control without telepathy.
> >
> > What? The Grogs certainly had telepathy, both send and receive, as
> > well as control.
> >
> > Brian
>
> Telepathy in the narrow sense, they can send and receive. They show
> no ability to discover hidden memories or to create hallucinations.

I think the ability to read the human's mind and to send it "crystal
certainties" fits the usual definition of telepathy.





Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Default User wrote:
> norrin wrote:
> > Default User wrote:
> > > norrin wrote:
> > > > The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult to use
> > > > against an entire race. The Grogs have control without telepathy.
>
> > > What? The Grogs certainly had telepathy, both send and receive, as
> > > well as control.
>
> > > Brian
>
> > Telepathy in the narrow sense, they can send and receive. They show
> > no ability to discover hidden memories or to create hallucinations.
>
> I think the ability to read the human's mind and to send it "crystal
> certainties" fits the usual definition of telepathy.
>
> Brian
>

Interesting choice of words. When somebody says they're certain, it
usually means they're wrong. It usually mean they're unwilling to
debate,
it's too painful. There is tension between the certainties and other
things that they know.

If the Thrint were only able to make people certain then they didn't
have mind control. Mind control requires false beliefs, but also
redaction and emotion control.
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

norrin wrote:

> Default User wrote:
> > norrin wrote:
> > > Default User wrote:
> > > > norrin wrote:
> > > > > The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult
> > > > > to use against an entire race. The Grogs have control without
> > > > > telepathy.
> >
> > > > What? The Grogs certainly had telepathy, both send and receive,
> > > > as well as control.
> >
> > > > Brian
> >
> > > Telepathy in the narrow sense, they can send and receive. They
> > > show no ability to discover hidden memories or to create
> > > hallucinations.
> >
> > I think the ability to read the human's mind and to send it "crystal
> > certainties" fits the usual definition of telepathy.

> Interesting choice of words.

It's right out of the story, hence the quotes. The main character can
recognize "facts" inserted by the Grogs that way.

> When somebody says they're certain, it usually means they're wrong.

That sounds unlikely. I'm certain of the year and place of my birth.
I'm certain of the year I first graduated from college.

> It usually mean they're unwilling to debate,
> it's too painful. There is tension between the certainties and other
> things that they know.

He didn't necessarily believe the certainies.

> If the Thrint were only able to make people certain then they didn't
> have mind control. Mind control requires false beliefs, but also
> redaction and emotion control.

We're discussing Grogs. Grogs could certainly control to a certain
extent. The first contact with the main character in the story finds
himself under control initially. How effective the control would be if
the human really tried to resist wasn't clear. Thrints could completely.



Brian

--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

Default User wrote:
> norrin wrote:
> > Default User wrote:
> > > norrin wrote:
> > > > Default User wrote:
> > > > > norrin wrote:
> > > > > > The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult
> > > > > > to use against an entire race. The Grogs have control without
> > > > > > telepathy.
>
> > > > > What? The Grogs certainly had telepathy, both send and receive,
> > > > > as well as control.
>
> > > > > Brian
>
> > > > Telepathy in the narrow sense, they can send and receive. They
> > > > show no ability to discover hidden memories or to create
> > > > hallucinations.
>
> > > I think the ability to read the human's mind and to send it "crystal
> > > certainties" fits the usual definition of telepathy.
> > Interesting choice of words.
>
> It's right out of the story, hence the quotes. The main character can
> recognize "facts" inserted by the Grogs that way.

Do you think it's possible to tell if you're awake or not?

> > When somebody says they're certain, it usually means they're wrong.
>
> That sounds unlikely. I'm certain of the year and place of my birth.
> I'm certain of the year I first graduated from college.

You have physical evidence, a birth certificate and a diploma. A
birth certificate is a reliable indicator of time and place, not as
reliable
for names. Even so, I expect some authentic birth certificates are
inaccurate on those things.

> > It usually mean they're unwilling to debate,
> > it's too painful. There is tension between the certainties and other
> > things that they know.
>
> He didn't necessarily believe the certainies.
>
> > If the Thrint were only able to make people certain then they didn't
> > have mind control. Mind control requires false beliefs, but also
> > redaction and emotion control.
>
> We're discussing Grogs. Grogs could certainly control to a certain
> extent. The first contact with the main character in the story finds
> himself under control initially. How effective the control would be if
> the human really tried to resist wasn't clear. Thrints could completely.
>
> Brian
>

Grogs have coercion but do they have redaction?
 >> Stay informed about: Thrint Question 

norrin wrote:

> Default User wrote:
> > norrin wrote:
> > > Default User wrote:
> > > > norrin wrote:
> > > > > Default User wrote:
> > > > > > norrin wrote:
> > > > > > > The Thrint may have telepathy, but if so it's too difficult
> > > > > > > to use against an entire race. The Grogs have control without
> > > > > > > telepathy.
> >
> > > > > > What? The Grogs certainly had telepathy, both send and receive,
> > > > > > as well as control.
> >
> > > > > > Brian
> >
> > > > > Telepathy in the narrow sense, they can send and receive. They
> > > > > show no ability to discover hidden memories or to create
> > > > > hallucinations.
> >
> > > > I think the ability to read the human's mind and to send it "crystal
> > > > certainties" fits the usual definition of telepathy.
> > > Interesting choice of words.
> >
> > It's right out of the story, hence the quotes. The main character can
> > recognize "facts" inserted by the Grogs that way.
>
> Do you think it's possible to tell if you're awake or not?
>
> > > When somebody says they're certain, it usually means they're wrong.
> >
> > That sounds unlikely. I'm certain of the year and place of my birth.
> > I'm certain of the year I first graduated from college.
>
> You have physical evidence, a birth certificate and a diploma. A
> birth certificate is a reliable indicator of time and place, not as
> reliable
> for names. Even so, I expect some authentic birth certificates are
> inaccurate on those things.
>
> > > It usually mean they're unwilling to debate,
> > > it's too painful. There is tension between the certainties and other
> > > things that they know.
> >
> > He didn't necessarily believe the certainies.
> >
> > > If the Thrint were only able to make people certain then they didn't
> > > have mind control. Mind control requires false beliefs, but also
> > > redaction and emotion control.
> >
> > We're discussing Grogs. Grogs could certainly control to a certain
> > extent. The first contact with the main character in the story finds
> > himself under control initially. How effective the control would be if
> > the human really tried to resist wasn't clear. Thrints could completely.
> >
> > Brian
> >
>
> Grogs have coercion but do they have redaction?

Grogs in the CIA?
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