Title Question

On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:24:11 -0400, mike weber <fairportfan.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Thu, 29 May 2008 19:54:34 -0500, Tony Whitlow
><anthonywhitlow38106.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:
>
>>This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
>>Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
>>Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
>>
>>Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
>>inherits the White Haven title.
>>
>>Just something that made me go hmmm..
>
>It's possible that Henke and Webster's titles are "courtesy" titles -
>often the heir to a title will have a courtesay title, which is
>actually one of the current holder of the main title's secondary
>titles - as, for instance, in Georgette Heyer's historical novel
>"Devil's Cub", the son of the Duke of Avon id the MArquis of Vidal,
>though that is actually one of his father's secondary titles.
>
>In our own era, the titles "Duke of Wales" and "Duke of Cornwall" (not
>"Prince of Wales") are secondary titles of the Queen, and are granted
>as courtesy titles to her sons.
>
>White Haven, OTOH, holds that title in his own persona propria.

Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike Henke is
Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

Leaving aside the obvious "Weber goofed" answer, perhaps you have to
hold a high enough position in the naval structure to use your noble title?
i.e. Hamish isn't just an admiral, he's also usually one of the Lords of the
Admiralty (i.e. Nth Space Lord, that sort of thing).

Dave Van Domelen, not interested in doing the slogwork to confirm this,
though.
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

"Doug Jones" <norbrookc.TakeThisOut@spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:nftv349o3k0r9r3qm4fa1ql0235ursalqa@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:24:11 -0400, mike weber <fairportfan.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 29 May 2008 19:54:34 -0500, Tony Whitlow
>><anthonywhitlow38106.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
>>>Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
>>>Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
>>>
>>>Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
>>>inherits the White Haven title.
>>>
>>>Just something that made me go hmmm..
>>
>>It's possible that Henke and Webster's titles are "courtesy" titles -
>>often the heir to a title will have a courtesay title, which is
>>actually one of the current holder of the main title's secondary
>>titles - as, for instance, in Georgette Heyer's historical novel
>>"Devil's Cub", the son of the Duke of Avon id the MArquis of Vidal,
>>though that is actually one of his father's secondary titles.
>>
>>In our own era, the titles "Duke of Wales" and "Duke of Cornwall" (not
>>"Prince of Wales") are secondary titles of the Queen, and are granted
>>as courtesy titles to her sons.
>>
>>White Haven, OTOH, holds that title in his own persona propria.
>
> Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike Henke is
> Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.

Could just be a case of mental inertia. Maybe Dave's just used to thinking
of her as Captain or Admiral Henke. Or maybe he's forgotten that she is
apparantly now Countess Gold Peak.

Of course, then there's the "fact" that readers may be confused to think of
her as Admiral Gold Peak after being refered to as Admiral (or Captain,
etc.)
Henke, whereas White Haven's always been White Haven.
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

"Fred Burton" <fburton.DeleteThis@biteme2.com> wrote in message
news:g1peme$18s7$1@pyrite.mv.net...
>
> "Doug Jones" <norbrookc.DeleteThis@spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote in message
> news:nftv349o3k0r9r3qm4fa1ql0235ursalqa@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:24:11 -0400, mike weber <fairportfan.DeleteThis@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 29 May 2008 19:54:34 -0500, Tony Whitlow
>>><anthonywhitlow38106.DeleteThis@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
>>>>Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
>>>>Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
>>>>
>>>>Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
>>>>inherits the White Haven title.
>>>>
>>>>Just something that made me go hmmm..
>>>
>>>It's possible that Henke and Webster's titles are "courtesy" titles -
>>>often the heir to a title will have a courtesay title, which is
>>>actually one of the current holder of the main title's secondary
>>>titles - as, for instance, in Georgette Heyer's historical novel
>>>"Devil's Cub", the son of the Duke of Avon id the MArquis of Vidal,
>>>though that is actually one of his father's secondary titles.
>>>
>>>In our own era, the titles "Duke of Wales" and "Duke of Cornwall" (not
>>>"Prince of Wales") are secondary titles of the Queen, and are granted
>>>as courtesy titles to her sons.
>>>
>>>White Haven, OTOH, holds that title in his own persona propria.
>>
>> Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike Henke is
>> Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.
>
> Could just be a case of mental inertia. Maybe Dave's just used to
> thinking
> of her as Captain or Admiral Henke. Or maybe he's forgotten that she is
> apparantly now Countess Gold Peak.
>
> Of course, then there's the "fact" that readers may be confused to think
> of
> her as Admiral Gold Peak after being refered to as Admiral (or Captain,
> etc.)
> Henke, whereas White Haven's always been White Haven.
>

Minor Nit, I believe Hamish was introduced (as a character) before he
inherited his title. Of course, he was White Haven in _Honor Of The Queen_
(book 2).


--

Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that "Fred Burton"
<fburton RemoveThis @biteme2.com> wrote on Fri, 30 May 2008 13:49:14 -0400 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>"Doug Jones" <norbrookc RemoveThis @spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote in message
>news:nftv349o3k0r9r3qm4fa1ql0235ursalqa@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:24:11 -0400, mike weber <fairportfan RemoveThis @gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>>On Thu, 29 May 2008 19:54:34 -0500, Tony Whitlow
>>><anthonywhitlow38106 RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
>>>>Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
>>>>Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
>>>>
>>>>Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
>>>>inherits the White Haven title.
>>>>
>>>>Just something that made me go hmmm..
>>>
>>>It's possible that Henke and Webster's titles are "courtesy" titles -
>>>often the heir to a title will have a courtesay title, which is
>>>actually one of the current holder of the main title's secondary
>>>titles - as, for instance, in Georgette Heyer's historical novel
>>>"Devil's Cub", the son of the Duke of Avon id the MArquis of Vidal,
>>>though that is actually one of his father's secondary titles.
>>>
>>>In our own era, the titles "Duke of Wales" and "Duke of Cornwall" (not
>>>"Prince of Wales") are secondary titles of the Queen, and are granted
>>>as courtesy titles to her sons.
>>>
>>>White Haven, OTOH, holds that title in his own persona propria.
>>
>> Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike Henke is
>> Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.
>
>Could just be a case of mental inertia. Maybe Dave's just used to thinking
>of her as Captain or Admiral Henke. Or maybe he's forgotten that she is
>apparantly now Countess Gold Peak.
>
>Of course, then there's the "fact" that readers may be confused to think of
>her as Admiral Gold Peak after being refered to as Admiral (or Captain,
>etc.)
>Henke, whereas White Haven's always been White Haven.

David, as an American, is probably not use to the European/English
practice of referring to people by their property, and differently
according to their current situation. Dang, the only one which comes
to mind is "Is Harrington here?" could mean Steadholder Harrington,
Duchess Harrington, Or the Admiral commanding the GNS Harrington.
Likewise, Minke could be referred to as Gold Peak, or $SHIPNAME or
whatever detachment she commands. Wit enough titles, she could be
meeting herself coming and going
But I am also aware of that "multiple title" confusion being
downplayed for those who are not used to 'thinking' of the member from
Wainscoting also being the Prime Minister. Or the Duke being also the
Prince, as well as the Colonel, etc, etc.

Almost as bad as trying to keep track of characters in Russian
novels, where there is first name, first name and patronymic,
patronymic alone, family name, ... and diminutives. How Michael
Sergeiovich Andropov becomes "Sasha", is just one of those things.




pyotr

>
>
>
>
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

"Doug Jones" <norbrookc RemoveThis @spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote in message
news:nftv349o3k0r9r3qm4fa1ql0235ursalqa@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:24:11 -0400, mike weber <fairportfan RemoveThis @gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 29 May 2008 19:54:34 -0500, Tony Whitlow
>><anthonywhitlow38106 RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>>This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
>>>Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
>>>Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
>>>
>>>Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
>>>inherits the White Haven title.
>>>
>>>Just something that made me go hmmm..
>>
>>It's possible that Henke and Webster's titles are "courtesy" titles -
>>often the heir to a title will have a courtesay title, which is
>>actually one of the current holder of the main title's secondary
>>titles - as, for instance, in Georgette Heyer's historical novel
>>"Devil's Cub", the son of the Duke of Avon id the MArquis of Vidal,
>>though that is actually one of his father's secondary titles.
>>
>>In our own era, the titles "Duke of Wales" and "Duke of Cornwall" (not
>>"Prince of Wales") are secondary titles of the Queen, and are granted
>>as courtesy titles to her sons.
>>
>>White Haven, OTOH, holds that title in his own persona propria.
>
> Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike Henke is
> Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.

Perhaps it is like some British titles where these days the holder can
choose whether the title is used in everyday speech.
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

In article <nQg1k.126161$UP6.72332@newsfe14.ams2>,
"deu" <david.deuchar1.RemoveThis@ntlworld.com> wrote:

> "Doug Jones" <norbrookc.RemoveThis@spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote in message
> news:nftv349o3k0r9r3qm4fa1ql0235ursalqa@4ax.com...
> > On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:24:11 -0400, mike weber <fairportfan.RemoveThis@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>On Thu, 29 May 2008 19:54:34 -0500, Tony Whitlow
> >><anthonywhitlow38106.RemoveThis@comcast.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>>This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
> >>>Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
> >>>Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
> >>>
> >>>Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
> >>>inherits the White Haven title.
> >>>
> >>>Just something that made me go hmmm..
> >>
> >>It's possible that Henke and Webster's titles are "courtesy" titles -
> >>often the heir to a title will have a courtesay title, which is
> >>actually one of the current holder of the main title's secondary
> >>titles - as, for instance, in Georgette Heyer's historical novel
> >>"Devil's Cub", the son of the Duke of Avon id the MArquis of Vidal,
> >>though that is actually one of his father's secondary titles.
> >>
> >>In our own era, the titles "Duke of Wales" and "Duke of Cornwall" (not
> >>"Prince of Wales") are secondary titles of the Queen, and are granted
> >>as courtesy titles to her sons.
> >>
> >>White Haven, OTOH, holds that title in his own persona propria.
> >
> > Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike Henke is
> > Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.
>
> Perhaps it is like some British titles where these days the holder can
> choose whether the title is used in everyday speech.

We also have the example of Abigail Hearns, whose title is "Miss Owens"
but she prefers to go by Hearns, to de-emphasize her connection to the
Owens Steadholdership.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

Don Sample wrote:

> In article <nQg1k.126161$UP6.72332@newsfe14.ams2>,
> "deu" <david.deuchar1.TakeThisOut@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > "Doug Jones" <norbrookc.TakeThisOut@spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote in message
> > news:nftv349o3k0r9r3qm4fa1ql0235ursalqa@4ax.com...
> > > On Thu, 29 May 2008 22:24:11 -0400, mike weber <fairportfan.TakeThisOut@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >>On Thu, 29 May 2008 19:54:34 -0500, Tony Whitlow
> > >><anthonywhitlow38106.TakeThisOut@comcast.net> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
> > >>>Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
> > >>>Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
> > >>>
> > >>>Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
> > >>>inherits the White Haven title.
> > >>>
> > >>>Just something that made me go hmmm..
> > >>
> > >>It's possible that Henke and Webster's titles are "courtesy" titles -
> > >>often the heir to a title will have a courtesay title, which is
> > >>actually one of the current holder of the main title's secondary
> > >>titles - as, for instance, in Georgette Heyer's historical novel
> > >>"Devil's Cub", the son of the Duke of Avon id the MArquis of Vidal,
> > >>though that is actually one of his father's secondary titles.
> > >>
> > >>In our own era, the titles "Duke of Wales" and "Duke of Cornwall" (not
> > >>"Prince of Wales") are secondary titles of the Queen, and are granted
> > >>as courtesy titles to her sons.
> > >>
> > >>White Haven, OTOH, holds that title in his own persona propria.
> > >
> > > Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike Henke is
> > > Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.
> >
> > Perhaps it is like some British titles where these days the holder can
> > choose whether the title is used in everyday speech.
>
> We also have the example of Abigail Hearns, whose title is "Miss Owens"
> but she prefers to go by Hearns, to de-emphasize her connection to the
> Owens Steadholdership.
>
> --
> Quando omni flunkus moritati
> Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>

I thought about that. But, if you look at how Weber has developed White Haven's
character, he would be the type to not use his title, but his surname. As for
Ms. Owens, remember she needs people to forget who/what she is, especially when
serving aboard ship with Graysons. She is a novelty whereas Manticoran female
nobles serving aboard ship are not.

I think it's more of a goof on Weber's part and the fact that I think too much.

<grin>
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

In article <48461661.F9979A91 RemoveThis @comcast.net>,
Tony Whitlow <anthonywhitlow38106 RemoveThis @comcast.net> wrote:

> Don Sample wrote:
>
> > In article <nQg1k.126161$UP6.72332@newsfe14.ams2>,
> > "deu" <david.deuchar1 RemoveThis @ntlworld.com> wrote:
> >
> > > "Doug Jones" <norbrookc RemoveThis @spamlessfrontiernet.net> wrote in message
> > > news:nftv349o3k0r9r3qm4fa1ql0235ursalqa@4ax.com...

> > > > Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike
> > > > Henke is Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.
> > >
> > > Perhaps it is like some British titles where these days the
> > > holder can choose whether the title is used in everyday speech.
> >
> > We also have the example of Abigail Hearns, whose title is "Miss
> > Owens" but she prefers to go by Hearns, to de-emphasize her
> > connection to the Owens Steadholdership.

> I thought about that. But, if you look at how Weber has developed
> White Haven's character, he would be the type to not use his title,
> but his surname. As for Ms. Owens, remember she needs people to
> forget who/what she is, especially when serving aboard ship with
> Graysons. She is a novelty whereas Manticoran female nobles serving
> aboard ship are not.
>
> I think it's more of a goof on Weber's part and the fact that I think
> too much.

But she goes by Hearns aboard Manticoran ships, where her being a
Steadholder's daughter really isn't that big a deal, to nearly everyone
aboard. Most Manties still don't really appreciate how big a deal being
a Steadholder is.

--
Quando omni flunkus moritati
Visit the Buffy Body Count at <http://homepage.mac.com/dsample/>
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Don Sample
<dsample.DeleteThis@synapse.net> wrote on Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:20:40 -0400 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>> > Except that since the death of her father and brother, Mike Henke is
>> > Countess Gold Peak, IIRC.
>>
>> Perhaps it is like some British titles where these days the holder can
>> choose whether the title is used in everyday speech.
>
>We also have the example of Abigail Hearns, whose title is "Miss Owens"
>but she prefers to go by Hearns, to de-emphasize her connection to the
>Owens Steadholdership.

Lt Abigail Hearns family name is "Hearns". The Hearns are the
Steadholders of the Owens Steading.
If you call for Ms Hearns, it is naval business. If you ask for
Miss Hearns, it is a "civilian" matter. But if you are addressing
Miss Owens, it is a formal matter.
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

I missed the Staff meeting, but the Memos showed that Don Sample
<dsample DeleteThis @synapse.net> wrote on Wed, 04 Jun 2008 01:45:41 -0400 in
alt.books.david-weber :
>
>> I thought about that. But, if you look at how Weber has developed
>> White Haven's character, he would be the type to not use his title,
>> but his surname. As for Ms. Owens, remember she needs people to
>> forget who/what she is, especially when serving aboard ship with
>> Graysons. She is a novelty whereas Manticoran female nobles serving
>> aboard ship are not.
>>
>> I think it's more of a goof on Weber's part and the fact that I think
>> too much.
>
>But she goes by Hearns aboard Manticoran ships, where her being a
>Steadholder's daughter really isn't that big a deal, to nearly everyone
>aboard. Most Manties still don't really appreciate how big a deal being
>a Steadholder is.

Like I said "Hearns" is the family name. "Owens" is the family
title.
If you replace "Owens" with "Bismarck" or "Gotha-Haxburg" or
"Bedford", you'll get a better grasp of the difference. That the
Steadhold has a name which is also a "family" name is what causes the
difficulties.

In some military traditions, divisions have names, and the
commander is just as often refereed to by the division name as their
own.
--
pyotr filipivich
The two oldest cliches in the book are "The Good Old Days were
better." and "After all, these are Modern TImes."
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

On 30 May, 01:54, Tony Whitlow <anthonywhitlow38....RemoveThis@comcast.net>
wrote:
> This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
> Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
> Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
>
> Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
> inherits the White Haven title.
>
> Just something that made me go hmmm..

I think people just like confusing other people .

In real life, Prince Charles' sons are referred to as $Rank Wales, not
the generally more anticipated $Rank Windsor (which in it's own right
isn't entirely correct...).

In my personal opinion, I'd've gone with Henke as well, not her title.
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question 

"JohnFair" <john.RemoveThis@johnsbooks.co.uk> wrote in message
news:a314ee98-2275-4536-b23a-f17e02624ff5@m73g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> On 30 May, 01:54, Tony Whitlow <anthonywhitlow38....RemoveThis@comcast.net>
> wrote:
>> This is something that sturck me recently when rereading AAC: Why is
>> Mike Henke always referred to as Adm. Henke instead of Adm. Gold Peak?
>> Same thing for Adm. Webster, why not Adm. New Dallas.
>>
>> Hamish Alexander is never referred to as Adm. Alexander after he
>> inherits the White Haven title.
>>
>> Just something that made me go hmmm..
>
> I think people just like confusing other people .
>
> In real life, Prince Charles' sons are referred to as $Rank Wales, not
> the generally more anticipated $Rank Windsor (which in it's own right
> isn't entirely correct...).
>
> In my personal opinion, I'd've gone with Henke as well, not her title.
>

In Henke's case, there's an upcoming snippet (from _Storm From The Shadows_)
that gives personal reasons. The public one is that she's been Henke all of
her life and didn't want to change her name. The private one is that she
feels taking the title (in the navy) means her father and brother are
'really' dead. It's implied of course that a Noble in the Honorverse can
decided to use the Noble title as part of his/her Navy title.

--

Paul Howard (Alias Drak Bibliophile)
*
Sometimes The Dragon Wins! [Polite Dragon Smile]
*
 >> Stay informed about: Title Question