Woot! I'm in the program

"Joyce Haslam" <pendle.DeleteThis@ukgateway.invalid> wrote in message
news:4fbf6dce99pendle@ukgateway.invalid...
> In article <70np74h9jo0fcmqls1oehp5kmg850eim4m.DeleteThis@4ax.com>,
> Tristaan <tristaanus.DeleteThis@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> Considering the totalitarian (for lack of a better word)
>> heirarchy within the Catholic church, it is harder to bring about
>> reforms like this than it is in protestant faiths where there is
>> not one overseeing "ruler" of the church other than the obvious
>> (being God).
>
>> This is not to say reforms won't happen and can't happen within
>> the Catholic church, just that they tend to move a little slower
>> when it comes to changes that come about from cultural and
>> sociological differences in time and place.
>
> Funny, I thought (back when I thought about such things) that
> change was harder in the fundamentalist sects (like the one I
> grew up in - no names no packdrill) where everyone had to agree,
> and there was no one who could say "It shall be *thus*" and make
> it "thus". However, while I've been away (40 years in England),
> things have changed incrementally and my brothers didn't seem to
> have noticed. I managed to keep quiet (nearly).

These also have a lot of trouble changing, especially if they think they
know the one true way to interpret the Holy Bible. {lop-sided} However, the
Roman Catholic Church with it's rigid hierarchy also has more trouble than
more moderate groups. {Smile}

At least that's how it looks to this Episcopalian. {Smile}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin


> IOW you may well be right.
>
> Joyce (ready to return to lurk mode).
>
> Joyce Haslam.
>
> --
>
> "The spear in the Other's heart is in your own: you are he." -- Surak
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

"Mummy Az" <manth.TakeThisOut@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:1qfq741rtnu9i2umtn7oo1l12opk39r1a4@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:22:12 -0400, Tristaan <tristaanus.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>>However, the move to allow female clergy in the protestant (and
>>non-Anglican denominations) has only been within the last half a
>>century (if not more recent... I don't know the specific dates).
>
> Not so!
>
> The Salvation Army, which was an offshoot of the Methodists, has
> allowed female clergy since its inception in 1878. Between 1934 and
> 1939, Evangeline Booth, (daughter of William Booth, the founder of the
> Army) became the 4th General (highest rank among the clergy).

Thanks. I wasn't aware that they were that early. {Smile}

I think they are one of the more moderate-as-opposed-to-extreme
denominations. Am I right? {Smile}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin


> Az
> (former Salvationist)
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:56:31 -1000, "Anne Elizabeth Baldwin"
<anneb @ aloha . net> stomped through my brain with:

> These also have a lot of trouble changing, especially if they think they
>know the one true way to interpret the Holy Bible.

Sad but true... in fact, this is kinda the topic of my sermon
this coming Sunday. If you're curious as to a preview, check out

http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/2008/05/tradition.html

>{lop-sided} However, the
>Roman Catholic Church with it's rigid hierarchy also has more trouble than
>more moderate groups. {Smile}

I think generally speaking, a lot of groups have the problem with
rapid change, specifically because of the tendencies to settle
into the "groove" of "That's the way it's always been done."

Tristaan

--
Beware Spam Trap!: "us" is an "ogre"
*******************************************************
Ogre-Monk, AIM TristaanOgre
"So good-bye for now and I'll see you again
Some way, some how
When it's my time to go to the other side
I'll hold you again and melt at your smile
Now I have all the ones that I am with
You taught me not to take for granted
The time that we have to show that we care
Speak into their lives and their hearts while they're here
And say I LOVE YOU!!"

~Disciple "Things Left Unsaid"

Theologian in training http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/
*******************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:52:47 -1000, "Anne Elizabeth Baldwin"
<anneb @ aloha . net> stomped through my brain with:

> But where's the alternate translation? Isn't there always an alternate
>translation that's pretty much unrelated? {puzzled smile}

Well, yes... I think the alternative translation based upon the
southern Indonesian dialect is something on the lines of:

Bill Clinton is a fish that eats Obama on his waffles while
McCain swings from the trees due to the BigFoot that is wandering
through Bush's rose garden.

But, in context, that translation doesn't make much sense so we
throw it out as trivial.

Tristaan
--
Beware Spam Trap!: "us" is an "ogre"
*******************************************************
Ogre-Monk, AIM TristaanOgre
"So good-bye for now and I'll see you again
Some way, some how
When it's my time to go to the other side
I'll hold you again and melt at your smile
Now I have all the ones that I am with
You taught me not to take for granted
The time that we have to show that we care
Speak into their lives and their hearts while they're here
And say I LOVE YOU!!"

~Disciple "Things Left Unsaid"

Theologian in training http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/
*******************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:59:51 -0400, Tristaan stomped through my
brain with:

>Bill Clinton is a fish that eats Obama on his waffles while
>McCain swings from the trees due to the BigFoot that is wandering
>through Bush's rose garden.
>
>But, in context, that translation doesn't make much sense so we
>throw it out as trivial.


Note that I said "in context". By itself, that translation
probably means MUCH more than we could POSSIBLY imagine.

Tristaan

--
Beware Spam Trap!: "us" is an "ogre"
*******************************************************
Ogre-Monk, AIM TristaanOgre
"So good-bye for now and I'll see you again
Some way, some how
When it's my time to go to the other side
I'll hold you again and melt at your smile
Now I have all the ones that I am with
You taught me not to take for granted
The time that we have to show that we care
Speak into their lives and their hearts while they're here
And say I LOVE YOU!!"

~Disciple "Things Left Unsaid"

Theologian in training http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/
*******************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:14:54 -1000, "Anne Elizabeth Baldwin" <anneb @
aloha . net> wrote:

>
>"Mummy Az" <manth.RemoveThis@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
>news:1qfq741rtnu9i2umtn7oo1l12opk39r1a4@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:22:12 -0400, Tristaan <tristaanus.RemoveThis@yahoo.com>
>> wrote:
>>>However, the move to allow female clergy in the protestant (and
>>>non-Anglican denominations) has only been within the last half a
>>>century (if not more recent... I don't know the specific dates).
>>
>> Not so!
>>
>> The Salvation Army, which was an offshoot of the Methodists, has
>> allowed female clergy since its inception in 1878. Between 1934 and
>> 1939, Evangeline Booth, (daughter of William Booth, the founder of the
>> Army) became the 4th General (highest rank among the clergy).
>
> Thanks. I wasn't aware that they were that early. {Smile}
>
> I think they are one of the more moderate-as-opposed-to-extreme
>denominations. Am I right? {Smile}
>
>
> Anne Elizabeth Baldwin

Moderate is a very good way to describe the Army. I know it looks a
bit ... odd ... to those who haven't been brought up in it. Uniforms
and ranks and so on and so forth are a bit hard for some people to
take. But it works.

One of the things I have always loved about the army is that is 'faith
in action' based. Outreach always works by making sure the person is
*physically* OK, fed and appropriately clothed and so forth before the
saving of souls. Souls are important but William Booth always said
it's hard for a man to hear the Word when his belly is rumbling so
loudly.

While I no longer classify myself as Christian, I look back on my
upbringing with the Salvation Army as good. Many of the lessons I
learned in the Army (like fairness, justice, equality of the sexes
before God, acceptance, lending a hand) are ones I have tried to teach
my own girls, just without the religion aspect of it all.

Az
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

"Mummy Az" <manth.TakeThisOut@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:02ut74l5b3r6hat229n0aoiffkfh1qfr21@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:14:54 -1000, "Anne Elizabeth Baldwin" <anneb @
> aloha . net> wrote:
>>"Mummy Az" <manth.TakeThisOut@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
>>news:1qfq741rtnu9i2umtn7oo1l12opk39r1a4@4ax.com...
>>> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 13:22:12 -0400, Tristaan <tristaanus.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>However, the move to allow female clergy in the protestant (and
>>>>non-Anglican denominations) has only been within the last half a
>>>>century (if not more recent... I don't know the specific dates).
>>>
>>> Not so!
>>>
>>> The Salvation Army, which was an offshoot of the Methodists, has
>>> allowed female clergy since its inception in 1878. Between 1934 and
>>> 1939, Evangeline Booth, (daughter of William Booth, the founder of the
>>> Army) became the 4th General (highest rank among the clergy).
>>
>> Thanks. I wasn't aware that they were that early. {Smile}
>>
>> I think they are one of the more moderate-as-opposed-to-extreme
>>denominations. Am I right? {Smile}
>>
>>
>> Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
>
> Moderate is a very good way to describe the Army. I know it looks a
> bit ... odd ... to those who haven't been brought up in it. Uniforms
> and ranks and so on and so forth are a bit hard for some people to
> take. But it works.

I know of no denomination that's better at spreading the social gospel
as the Salvation Army. {Smile}

> One of the things I have always loved about the army is that is 'faith
> in action' based. Outreach always works by making sure the person is
> *physically* OK, fed and appropriately clothed and so forth before the
> saving of souls. Souls are important but William Booth always said
> it's hard for a man to hear the Word when his belly is rumbling so
> loudly.

I think he has a point. {Smile} That approach to outreach is what I mean
by "the social gospel," by the way. {SMILE}

> While I no longer classify myself as Christian, I look back on my
> upbringing with the Salvation Army as good. Many of the lessons I
> learned in the Army (like fairness, justice, equality of the sexes
> before God, acceptance, lending a hand) are ones I have tried to teach
> my own girls, just without the religion aspect of it all.

They do sound like good goals. I hope the Little Goddesses think so too.
{SMILE}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

"Tristaan" <tristaanus RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:f9gu74hls1urf0eorbbmactff5i1fks9ln@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:56:31 -1000, "Anne Elizabeth Baldwin"
> <anneb @ aloha . net> stomped through my brain with:
>
>> These also have a lot of trouble changing, especially if they think
>> they
>>know the one true way to interpret the Holy Bible.
>
> Sad but true... in fact, this is kinda the topic of my sermon
> this coming Sunday. If you're curious as to a preview, check out
>
> http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/2008/05/tradition.html

I remember that one. I found it particularly thought-provoking. I bet it
will be a good sermon. {SMILE}

>>{lop-sided} However, the
>>Roman Catholic Church with it's rigid hierarchy also has more trouble
>>than
>>more moderate groups. {Smile}
>
> I think generally speaking, a lot of groups have the problem with
> rapid change, specifically because of the tendencies to settle
> into the "groove" of "That's the way it's always been done."

You're probably right. Sometimes it's terribly hard to break away from
habits and ruts, even if you recognize they aren't good. If you aren't sure
how bad they are, it's that much worse. {small smile}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

"Tristaan" <tristaanus.TakeThisOut@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jfgu74pm2lve7ppkkerk7umdtf31jmdajf@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 20:52:47 -1000, "Anne Elizabeth Baldwin"
> <anneb @ aloha . net> stomped through my brain with:
>
>> But where's the alternate translation? Isn't there always an alternate
>>translation that's pretty much unrelated? {puzzled smile}
>
> Well, yes... I think the alternative translation based upon the
> southern Indonesian dialect is something on the lines of:
>
> Bill Clinton is a fish that eats Obama on his waffles while
> McCain swings from the trees due to the BigFoot that is wandering
> through Bush's rose garden.
>
> But, in context, that translation doesn't make much sense so we
> throw it out as trivial.

Okay. I guess I can see the problem. {GRIN, wink}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

"Tristaan" <tristaanus RemoveThis @yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:apgu74h76416i33h3ihft6v2uh76b2paqb@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 17 Jul 2008 08:59:51 -0400, Tristaan stomped through my
> brain with:
>
>>Bill Clinton is a fish that eats Obama on his waffles while
>>McCain swings from the trees due to the BigFoot that is wandering
>>through Bush's rose garden.
>>
>>But, in context, that translation doesn't make much sense so we
>>throw it out as trivial.
>
>
> Note that I said "in context". By itself, that translation
> probably means MUCH more than we could POSSIBLY imagine.

Maybe so.

At least it makes as much sense as most of politics. {SMILE, wink}


Anne Elizabeth Baldwin
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

Tristaan wrote:

> http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/2008/05/tradition.html

Good sermon. And yes, the end is love: that *is* what will endure.
For the tricky bits, well, I don't think Jesus taught non-violence
in the way that Gandhi (for example) did. And some 1st century
Roman soldiers were Christians (they brought Christianity to
England long before the Canterbury guy - sorry, senior moment
here). There is a story (made into a West End play?) about the
soldier who nailed Jesus to the cross praying for guidance and in a
vision being given the nails again - to use again. Paul said "work
out your own salvation with fear and trembling", which I'm told was
a current idiom for "very carefully". No one promised us an easy
ride.

Just to pull the thread further off topic: I'm very glad to see
that the Pope has rebuffed those who wanted to go by parish-loads
from the Anglican to the Roman communion. They've been told to stay
where they are and work for church unity. Hurrah!

Joyce Haslam.

--

"The spear in the Other's heart is in your own: you are he." -- Surak
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

Tristaan wrote:
> On Tue, 15 Jul 2008 20:56:49 +0100, Joyce Haslam stomped through
> my brain with:
>
>> Funny, I thought (back when I thought about such things) that
>> change was harder in the fundamentalist sects (like the one I
>> grew up in - no names no packdrill) where everyone had to agree,
>> and there was no one who could say "It shall be *thus*" and make
>> it "thus". However, while I've been away (40 years in England),
>> things have changed incrementally and my brothers didn't seem to
>> have noticed. I managed to keep quiet (nearly).
>
> Perhaps that might be the case as of 40 years ago, but in the
> post-modernistic sociological/cultural landscape that exists now
> in the United States, change is inevitable.
>
> I belong to a so-called "fundamentalist" sect (I've heard the
> Mennonite church called such, or at least ultra-conservative) and
> it's only been within the past 40 or 50 years that a LOT of
> changes have occurred.
>
> However, considering the Roman Catholic church, any change in
> church function, doctrine, etc, must flow up the line to the Pope
> and then flow back down. In the protestant denominations, while
> you have "committee decisions", most of the time (in my
> experience) those committee decisions are made only after the
> cultural pressure from the individual congregations has made it
> moot.
>
> I could be wrong in this evaluation (not having intimate
> knowledge of the Roman Catholic church and it's hierarchical
> processes) but that's what appears to be the case.
>
> Tristaan

The same does happen in the Roman Catholic church, because the
bishops become cardinals and the cardinals elect/become the pope.
The thing is, the American Bishops of the Roman Catholic Church
are far far more progressive than their European and 3rd world
counterparts. They have even been chided by the Pope, on occasion.

It is interesting, because most of our associate pastors are now
coming from places like the Phillipines or hispanic countries.
They can lose an entire congregation when they stand up and start
preaching about how absolute obedience to all of the strictures of
the Catholic church is required to be considered Catholic.

And they lose me faster than the rest...

SAMK, a not very good Roman Catholic
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program 

On Fri, 25 Jul 2008 21:59:30 -0500, SAMK stomped through my brain
with:

>It is interesting, because most of our associate pastors are now
>coming from places like the Phillipines or hispanic countries.
>They can lose an entire congregation when they stand up and start
>preaching about how absolute obedience to all of the strictures of
>the Catholic church is required to be considered Catholic.

At the risk of sounding judgemental, this type of stance by any
denomination sounds so much like the Pharasical practices of the
1st Century CE... Jesus himself specifical spoke against the
legalistic adherance to human-created laws and practices at the
expense of the grace, mercy, and love implicit (and in some
cases, explicit) in the law. So much of the practices of that
era were from rabbinical interpretation of scripture and, in
fact, those rabbinical interpretations were given as much
credance (if not, in some extreme cases, more) than the law
itself.

The Catholic church is not alone in this. Mennonites, Baptists,
Lutherans, etc... All have their own interpretations of the
"right" way of doing church. There are a few things in Christian
faith that are concrete, indisputably accepted truths. But there
are a LOT of things that are based on interpretation. The sad
part is that it is on those areas that the church has split and
split again over the last 2 millenia.

While all these convictions have solid arguments based upon
scripture to back them up, they are still, to a point, human
construction based upon a limited understanding of the big
picture.

Jesus summed it up best:

"The Most Important Command
34-36When the Pharisees heard how he had bested the Sadducees,
they gathered their forces for an assault. One of their religion
scholars spoke for them, posing a question they hoped would show
him up: "Teacher, which command in God's Law is the most
important?"
37-40Jesus said, "'Love the Lord your God with all your passion
and prayer and intelligence.' This is the most important, the
first on any list. But there is a second to set alongside it:
'Love others as well as you love yourself.' These two commands
are pegs; everything in God's Law and the Prophets hangs from
them."
" Matthew 22:34-40 MEssage paraphrase.

There's a lot that goes along with these but, if you get down to
core faith, this is what it is all about... showing love to God
and showing love to Man... by doing the second, you are also
doing the first. By doing the first, you are ultimately going to
do the second. Aim ultimately for showing love for God... and to
truly show love, you need to get to KNOW him and understand him
to the best you are able.

....

....sorry... another sermon in the works, there. Apologies if
I've caused any offense.

Tristaan
--
Beware Spam Trap!: "us" is an "ogre"
*******************************************************
Ogre-Monk, AIM TristaanOgre
"So good-bye for now and I'll see you again
Some way, some how
When it's my time to go to the other side
I'll hold you again and melt at your smile
Now I have all the ones that I am with
You taught me not to take for granted
The time that we have to show that we care
Speak into their lives and their hearts while they're here
And say I LOVE YOU!!"

~Disciple "Things Left Unsaid"

Theologian in training http://ballymennoniteblogger.blogspot.com/
*******************************************************
 >> Stay informed about: Woot! I'm in the program