Something doesn't add up

Sean_Q_ wrote:
> Larry Swain wrote:
>
>> Kind of. It was more a fictional time than a fictional geography.
>
>
> True, but I meant that JRRT wanted an "English" legend and yet there's
> no identifiable geographic England in his legendarium.

Yes and no. Others over the years have certainly noted a number of
similarities in the geography between Middle Earth and Europe, no, not
an exact correspondance, but a similarity.

More importantly however is the early use of the migration myth of the
English for the Hobbits and their obvious linguistic and cultural ties
to the other "Germanic" peoples in the novel, the Rohirrim. For
example, the Stoors coming into the Angle mentioned by Troels, the fact
that like the English coming into Britain there are 3 tribes (Angles,
Saxons, Jutes compare Stoors, Fallohides, Harfoots), and those who first
enter England and the Shire have names that are related to horses: Horsa
and Hengest lead the English migration, Blanco and Marcho found the
Shire (both sets of brothers as I recall); and the names Frodo likely
comes from Froda, a Germanic word, and a name in Beowulf and a few late
charters in England, (we in fact are told just that in the Appendix!
Tolkien says that he has retained some hobbit names without translation,
but changed the ending, the -a being the masculine ending, and so FrodO
was originally FrodA, the form of the OE name) and on the continent, nor
have I touched on yet the use of English names and words for place names
(particularly in and around the Shire, Bree-hill, Chetwood, etc), the
calendar, the influence of English literature etc....there is much that
is "English" about the novel, fundamentally English. So perhaps not
geographic in the literal sense, but the landscape certainly is English.

The Shire may
> resemble an English village and the Rohirrim may use Anglo-Saxon style
> alliterative verse, but part of English culture has always been a sort
> of insular mentality; it belongs to Europe and yet stands slightly
> apart. ("Heavy fog blocks Channel shipping - Continent isolated.")

But this is precisely the view of the inhabitants of the Shire. Even
though the East-West Road runs through the Shire, and so they have some
contact with the outside world, they certainly don't want as a whole any
part in the outside world and would prefer if they didn't have much
contact...but to be a place apart, an island if you will in fact if not
in geography.
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Matthew T Curtis wrote:
> On Wed, 28 May 2008 21:32:09 GMT, Sean_Q_ <nospam.RemoveThis@no.sapm> wrote:
>
>
>>According to a documentary on Tolkien, he wanted an "English" national
>>legend. Apparently the Arthurian legends wouldn't do because they were
>>a "French import".
>>
>>And yet Arthur himself was supposed to be a "Briton" -- in his case
>>a Romanized Celt in the latter part of the 5th century.
>>
>
> Yes. The Arthur stories were in origin Celtic legends from the
> post-Roman period, about a warlord who fought the Saxons, originally
> transmitted orally, and collected by Geoffrey of Monmouth in _The
> History of the Kings of Britain_.

Well, so he claims. As far as I recall, we have no Breton sources, and
the Welsh sources only mention 1 battle, the Annals of Wales, the other
tales don't mention this (though do correct me if I'm wrong) until
Nennius, and as you probably know Nennius is fraught with difficulty.

The story was then used by the
> minstrels of France and Italy as the basis of the 'Matter of Britain'
> - one of the three great story-cycles from which their popular stories
> in the vernacular languages - 'romances' - were drawn. The others were
> the 'Matter of France' - Charlemagne and his paladins - and the
> 'Matter of Rome' - the ancient Greek and Roman myths.
>
> The minstrels included in the Matter of Britainfantastic
> embellishments not in the original,

HMMM, probably not....magic rings, magic places, astoninshingly
beautiful women, grotesque monsters and servants are all par for the
course in Celtic literature of the time, and are all elements of course
in the Arthurian romances.

plus some stories from other
> sources that were not in the original: the Grail quest, the Lancelot
> stories, Tristan and Isolde and so on.

Indeed! The original Lancelot story, Lanval by Marie de France, has a
MUCH different take on Lancelot than the later tradition.

<snip some interesting stuff>
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Troels Forchhammer <Troels.RemoveThis@thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
> Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.RemoveThis@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:

>> I'm probably stupid, and I know my English is worse than yours
>> , so may I ask what the connection between "stoor" and "short"
>> is?

> the Stoors did, at one time, live in the Angle.

Yes, that part was indeed obvious

> My wife is short (only about a foot more than the Hobbit record-
> holders, Peregrin Took and Meriadoc Brandybuck)

Ah, you meant "short as a hobbit"; and not "'short' and 'stoor' have
a obvious connection". Thanks, I misunderstood that. (BTW, Tolkien says in
the /Guide to Names/: "This is early English /stor, stoor/ 'large, strong',
now obsolete.", so I was confused).

- Dirk
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In message
<news:20080530104711.1B97.1.NOFFLE@dthierbach.news.arcor.de>
Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.TakeThisOut@usenet.arcornews.de> spoke these staves:
>

<snip>

>> My wife is short (only about a foot more than the Hobbit record-
>> holders, Peregrin Took and Meriadoc Brandybuck)
>
> Ah, you meant "short as a hobbit";

Indeed

> and not "'short' and 'stoor' have a obvious connection".

I wouldn't presume to make public comments on whether my wife, besides
her height, can be considered in any other way "stoor" (the Danish word
is "stor"). I cherish my marriage too much for that

> Thanks, I misunderstood that. (BTW, Tolkien says in the /Guide to
> Names/: "This is early English /stor, stoor/ 'large, strong', now
> obsolete.", so I was confused).

Understandably.

BTW -- weren't the Stoors generally larger than the other Hobbit
branches? Or is that just me misremembering again? In any case the
Danish translation was, in this case, quite easy, since removing a
single 'o' gave the appriate Danish word in the singular (I'm less
happy about the translation of 'Fallohides' who became 'Gyldenhuder' --
'Golden-skins').

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom
of thought which they avoid.
- Soren Kierkegaard
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On May 29, 5:32 pm, Erik Trulsson <ertr1....RemoveThis@student.uu.se> wrote:
> In rec.arts.books.tolkien JJ <j....RemoveThis@jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On May 29, 9:58 am, Erik Trulsson <ertr1....RemoveThis@student.uu.se> wrote:
> > eyes to blind me from the truth (as Morpheus in _Matrix_ might say).
>
> >> The Arthur legends are an anachronistic mixture of some scant historical
> >> sources that have very few details, some older story-cycles, and lots of
> >> fanciful writers adding their own ideas and embellishments to it.
>
> > And they still are - read Bernard Cornwell's trilogy, Winter King,
> > Enemy of God and Excalibur.
>
> I have never heard of that particular trilogy, nor of the writer, but over
> the last century there must have been several hundred writers (if not more)
> adding their takes on the Arthur legends in various books, movies, games,
> and comics (and probably songs, poems and theatre plays as well.) I don't
> expect people to stop mining the Arturian legends for material any time
> soon.

Hundreds? Wow! But I totally believe it.

My favorites (among the small percentage I have read) include Mary
Stewart (of course!), especially /The Crystal Cave/, and, stragely
enough, Marion Zimmer Bradley's /The Mists of Avalon/ which tells the
story from the point of view of Morgan LeFay, an evil witch in
Mallory's version.

I'll also note /The Silver Chalice/ by, uh, it's on the tip of my
tongue (and somewhere on my bookshelf) but it's out of print and even
abebooks can't find it, but it is notable mostly in that it tries to
be historically plausible. No shining armor in that one!

Jim Deutch (JimboCat)
--
"While some fools seem to think that strength is the ability to
destroy and to defeat, strength is more importantly the ability to
give and to aid." - Raven
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Troels Forchhammer <Troels RemoveThis @thisisfake.invalid> wrote:

> I wouldn't presume to make public comments on whether my wife, besides
> her height, can be considered in any other way "stoor" (the Danish word
> is "stor").

Sorry, I'm confused again Is "stoor" still a valid English word?
If yes, what's the meaning? There's the German word "stur"
("headstrong", "stubborn"), which would be pronounced identically, but
I don't think there's any connection. Then there's also "störrisch"
("stubborn" in a negative sense, "obstinate").

> BTW -- weren't the Stoors generally larger than the other Hobbit
> branches?

LotR says "broader, heavier in build; their feet and hands were large".

> In any case the Danish translation was, in this case, quite easy, since
> removing a single 'o' gave the appriate Danish word in the singular

Ah, so Danish "stor" still means "large, strong"?

BTW, the German translation followed Tolkien's directions "may be
represented by a more or less 'phonetic' spelling" and so it became
"Starren" (which hasn't any clear meaning).

> (I'm less happy about the translation of 'Fallohides' who became
> 'Gyldenhuder' -- 'Golden-skins').

That one was easy in German -- the /Guide/ already says "fallow + hide
(cognates of German falb and Haut)", so "Falbhäute" was the obvious
choice

- Dirk
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Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach.DeleteThis@usenet.arcornews.de> writes:

> Sorry, I'm confused again Is "stoor" still a valid English word?

Not really, according to the OED. stour,stoor had a whole range of
meanings, centered around the concepts of "big" (as in German stor)
and "wild, furious" (cf. an apparently rare Dutch word stuursch) -
apparently two different words confused.

In the "big" sense, it seems to have survived in (the ancestors of)
standard English until about 1600-1700. In some other dialects, and in
Scotland, it lived longer, at least up to the late 1800s. I've never
heard it in the twenty years I've been in Scotland, but I don't get to
hear much in the way of actual Scots.
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Dirk Thierbach wrote:

> Troels Forchhammer <Troels RemoveThis @thisisfake.invalid> wrote:
>
>> I wouldn't presume to make public comments on whether my wife, besides
>> her height, can be considered in any other way "stoor" (the Danish word
>> is "stor").
>
> Sorry, I'm confused again Is "stoor" still a valid English word?
> If yes, what's the meaning? There's the German word "stur"
> ("headstrong", "stubborn"), which would be pronounced identically,

Ack! In English, you can't get any two people to agree on pronunciation
(and given what people think of the German accent I acquired from an
Afrikaans teacher, I'm not sure German is any more uniform), but I would
pronounce the English word "Stoor" more like "Stür".
--
derek
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JimboCat wrote:

> On May 29, 5:32 pm, Erik Trulsson <ertr1... DeleteThis @student.uu.se> wrote:
>> In rec.arts.books.tolkien JJ <j... DeleteThis @jones5011.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> > On May 29, 9:58 am, Erik Trulsson <ertr1... DeleteThis @student.uu.se> wrote:
>> > eyes to blind me from the truth (as Morpheus in _Matrix_ might say).
>>
>> >> The Arthur legends are an anachronistic mixture of some scant
>> >> historical sources that have very few details, some older
>> >> story-cycles, and lots of fanciful writers adding their own ideas and
>> >> embellishments to it.
>>
>> > And they still are - read Bernard Cornwell's trilogy, Winter King,
>> > Enemy of God and Excalibur.
>>
>> I have never heard of that particular trilogy, nor of the writer, but
>> over the last century there must have been several hundred writers (if
>> not more) adding their takes on the Arthur legends in various books,
>> movies, games, and comics (and probably songs, poems and theatre plays as
>> well.) I don't expect people to stop mining the Arturian legends for
>> material any time soon.
>
> Hundreds? Wow! But I totally believe it.

Well, I don't know, but I thought I'd do a quick search for subject "King
Arthur" in our local library - I get 198 titles, and 153 books. Some of
those are probably for the same item in different formats (eg, hardcover or
softcover) but it still seems like a pretty good number. I don't have a
simple way to find out how many authors that is, but in the past century I
believe it's been mandatory that every author use at least three volumes to
tell the story, so it's probably less than 50 authors. otoh, the library
only serves around 300,000 people, so a big-city library will no doubt have
many more.

>
> My favorites (among the small percentage I have read) include Mary
> Stewart (of course!), especially /The Crystal Cave/, and, stragely
> enough, Marion Zimmer Bradley's /The Mists of Avalon/ which tells the
> story from the point of view of Morgan LeFay, an evil witch in
> Mallory's version.

Both very good. I've read the Cornwell, too, and I enjoy it. I can't stand
T.H. White. I keep meaning to check out Jack Whyte.
>
> I'll also note /The Silver Chalice/ by, uh, it's on the tip of my
> tongue (and somewhere on my bookshelf)

Thomas Costain

> but it's out of print and even
> abebooks can't find it, but it is notable mostly in that it tries to

I've just put it on hold from my library, thanks.
--
derek
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Julian Bradfield <jcb.DeleteThis@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
> to the OED. stour,stoor had a whole range of meanings, centered
> around the concepts of "big" (as in German stor)

I cannot think of any German word with a meaning of "big" and similar
to "stor". And I'm a native speaker My OED (one of the "smaller"
editions) only says "late middle english, of uncertain origin"
for "stour".

Are there any details about the germanic variant of "stor"?

- Dirk
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Dirk Thierbach <dthierbach DeleteThis @usenet.arcornews.de> writes:

> Julian Bradfield <jcb DeleteThis @inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:
>> to the OED. stour,stoor had a whole range of meanings, centered
>> around the concepts of "big" (as in German stor)
>
> I cannot think of any German word with a meaning of "big" and similar
> to "stor".

Sorry, momentary brain failure. I meant "Danish", not "German".
(DE, DK, it's just one letter;-)
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Derek Broughton <news.TakeThisOut@pointerstop.ca> wrote:

> Ack! In English, you can't get any two people to agree on pronunciation
> (and given what people think of the German accent I acquired from an
> Afrikaans teacher

I don't think Afrikaans is a valid German accident

> I'm not sure German is any more uniform

No, it isn't, though agreement on Hochdeutsch ("high-german") is quite
uniform (with a few minor variants). Dialects can distort the pronounciation
so far that even native speakers from a different region have trouble
understanding it

> but I would pronounce the English word "Stoor" more like "Stür".

Interesting. Many English and American people I met have real trouble
even approximating "ü" naturally My OED has no pronounciation for
"stoor", and /stue/ (with open u and schwa) for "stour", which is indeed
close to German "stur". So I'm a bit sceptic about the umlaut version.

- Dirk
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Dirk Thierbach wrote:

> Derek Broughton <news RemoveThis @pointerstop.ca> wrote:
>
>> Ack! In English, you can't get any two people to agree on pronunciation
>> (and given what people think of the German accent I acquired from an
>> Afrikaans teacher
>
> I don't think Afrikaans is a valid German accident

Well, not as such - but he learned his German from somewhere.
>
>> I'm not sure German is any more uniform
>
> No, it isn't, though agreement on Hochdeutsch ("high-german") is quite
> uniform (with a few minor variants). Dialects can distort the
> pronounciation so far that even native speakers from a different region
> have trouble understanding it
>
>> but I would pronounce the English word "Stoor" more like "Stür".
>
> Interesting. Many English and American people I met have real trouble
> even approximating "ü" naturally My OED has no pronounciation for
> "stoor", and /stue/ (with open u and schwa) for "stour", which is indeed
> close to German "stur". So I'm a bit sceptic about the umlaut version.

Well, remember, my German accent is suspect! I wasn't even getting into the
fact that I wouldn't pronounce the "st" in German with nearly the sibilance
of English...
--
derek
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