Something doesn't add up

"Tom Hook" <tomhook DeleteThis @hookwork.com> wrote in message news:2008060216012716807-

>Thinking further about it, I'm not
> sure the Kennedys would like that incorrect description of their
> regional "Bastan" dialect being proud of their ascent from a place in
> society just a century ago when those same Brahmins were more apt to
> say "No Irish allowed" than welcome to the club.

Niether group would likely love it.
Sure the Kennedys are "new money" - but if the accent fits, wear it.

-W
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

In message <news:e6cr6bfg5tk.fsf@krk.inf.ed.ac.uk> Julian Bradfield
<jcb.DeleteThis@inf.ed.ac.uk> spoke these staves:
>
> Troels Forchhammer <Troels.DeleteThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> writes:
>>

<snip>

> Firstly, there's no difference (in RP either today or a hundred
> years ago) between the vowels of 'floor' and 'store'. Today,
> they're also the same as the vowel of 'flaw'. You'll still find
> dictionaries claiming that 'store' and 'floor' are pronounced with
> /O@/, with a schwa acting as a remnant of the /r/ we don't
> pronounce, but I'd be surprised if you could find a standard
> English speaker who still does that.

Thanks all for the help here.

As far as I understand, you're using SAMPA notaion, right?
<http://www.phon.ucl.ac.uk/home/sampa/index.html>

Listening carefully at the words 'pore', 'poor' and 'paw' as they're
pronounced at howjsay.com, I'm not sure that there actually is any
difference between the three, though I believe there's a slight
difference in the ending of 'paw' (as if the speaker is ending the
vowel shaping the mouth towards a 'w' rather than a very open 'r' --
but that might be just me hearing hallucinations . . .).

This, /-O:/, seems common for all the '-oor' words that I can find,
though a couple of them have the /U@/ as an alternative.

Obviously I've been using the /-U@/ version for both 'poor' and
'moor' (I'll insist that's what my teacher taught me back when I was
at school, years ago) and have been applying that to 'stoor' as well.
Of course my real hope was to learn how Tolkien would have pronounced
'stoor', though lacking that, standard English is quite OK

Incidentally, using the SAMPA notation, the Danish word, 'stor' is
/"sdo6/

/"tRo@ls/

--
Troels Forchhammer
Valid e-mail is <troelsfo(a)gmail.com>
Please put [AFT], [RABT] or 'Tolkien' in subject.

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong.
- Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
(Thus speaks the quantum physicist)
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

On 2008-06-02 19:23:45 -0400, "Clams Canino" <cc-marine DeleteThis @earthdink.net> said:

>
> "Tom Hook" <tomhook DeleteThis @hookwork.com> wrote in message news:2008060216012716807-
>
>> Thinking further about it, I'm not
>> sure the Kennedys would like that incorrect description of their
>> regional "Bastan" dialect being proud of their ascent from a place in
>> society just a century ago when those same Brahmins were more apt to
>> say "No Irish allowed" than welcome to the club.
>
> Niether group would likely love it.
> Sure the Kennedys are "new money" - but if the accent fits, wear it.
>
> -W

Mr. Casino (aka Dubya)

To make my excuses before you take me too seriously, I will attest that
I should avoid this group during the cocktail hour because liquor's
loose tongue tends to meander - but sometimes I simply can't help
myself.

I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make or if it's a joke, I
simply don't get it. I thought this thread was about how words are
pronounced.

You state: "but if the accent fits, wear it." What accent are you
talking about - Endicott Peabody's or Joseph Kennedy's? And as for new
money, that has nothing to do with it as far as I can can see. Whether
you made your money from the China trade or Hollywood movies, the same
rapacious will prevails. The point is - Boston Brahmin is a name given
to a certain group of people, a group to which the Kennedys do not
belong. That in no way is meant to slight the Kennedys, it is simply
the way I know it to be.

By the way, are you a fan of New England or Manhattan clam chowder?

Best regards

Tom
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

Tom Hook wrote:

> On 2008-06-02 19:23:45 -0400, "Clams Canino" <cc-marine.RemoveThis@earthdink.net>
> said:
>
>>
>> Niether group would likely love it.
>> Sure the Kennedys are "new money" - but if the accent fits, wear it.
>
> You state: "but if the accent fits, wear it." What accent are you
> talking about - Endicott Peabody's or Joseph Kennedy's? And as for new
> money, that has nothing to do with it as far as I can can see. Whether
> you made your money from the China trade or Hollywood movies, the same
> rapacious will prevails. The point is - Boston Brahmin is a name given
> to a certain group of people, a group to which the Kennedys do not
> belong. That in no way is meant to slight the Kennedys, it is simply
> the way I know it to be.

Are you claiming that Peabody's and Kennedy's accent are different? Because
if you aren't, I will

> By the way, are you a fan of New England or Manhattan clam chowder?

Ahem! Nova Scotia fish chowder, if you please...
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

On 2008-06-02 22:09:57 -0400, Derek Broughton <news RemoveThis @pointerstop.ca> said:

> Tom Hook wrote:
>
>> On 2008-06-02 19:23:45 -0400, "Clams Canino" <cc-marine RemoveThis @earthdink.net>
>> said:
>>
>>>
>>> Niether group would likely love it.
>>> Sure the Kennedys are "new money" - but if the accent fits, wear it.
>>
>> You state: "but if the accent fits, wear it." What accent are you
>> talking about - Endicott Peabody's or Joseph Kennedy's? And as for new
>> money, that has nothing to do with it as far as I can can see. Whether
>> you made your money from the China trade or Hollywood movies, the same
>> rapacious will prevails. The point is - Boston Brahmin is a name given
>> to a certain group of people, a group to which the Kennedys do not
>> belong. That in no way is meant to slight the Kennedys, it is simply
>> the way I know it to be.
>
> Are you claiming that Peabody's and Kennedy's accent are different? Because
> if you aren't, I will

In my indirect way, I was. My lack of clarity is attributable to any
number of factors none of which I want to go into at the present time
being my bedtime and any such explanations might give me nightmares!
>
>> By the way, are you a fan of New England or Manhattan clam chowder?
>
> Ahem! Nova Scotia fish chowder, if you please...

I have not had the pleasure of tasting that dish although I have had
the pleasure many years ago of visiting the Maritime Provinces (all of
them even Newfoundland...). Nova Scotia was my favorite where once
looking down from the cliffs of Cape Breton, I saw eagles soaring
between me and the water below. JRRT would have been impressed, I
certainly was. Quite a sight, quite a lovely place.
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

Derek Broughton wrote:

> Ahem! Nova Scotia fish chowder, if you please...

A Maritimer!

I was in New Scotland once, with my g/f (at the time) because
her brother was working in Halifax. We all went down to Peggy's Cove
and then we found a rocky field green with moss somewhere sloping down
to cliffs above the sea and her brother got out his bagpipes
and wailed away on it with the wind off the ocean in our faces.
It was quite a moment.

SQ
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 19:22:50 +0100, Julian Bradfield
<jcb.TakeThisOut@inf.ed.ac.uk> wrote:

>Paul S. Person <psperson.TakeThisOut@ix.netscom.com.invalid> writes:
>
>> In my area, while "floor" and "store" use the same vowel, "flaw"
>> certainly does not.
>
>So what is your area? Is it one of those areas which gave rise to
>modern standard English?

Seattle, the dialect of which, of course, since I live here, is the
very epitome of modern standard English. Yes, that's right, we speak
it like TV anchormen did in the 50's (you can't get much more
"standard" than that!)! Our parents and teachers insisted on this!

If the Queen's English differs, well, so much for /that/ as a
standard! Can't distinguish "floor" and "flaw" indeed!
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:40:26 -0500, "Clams Canino"
<cc-marine.RemoveThis@earthdink.net> wrote:

<snippo>

>That said, I always felt a true "dialect" needed many of it's own words and
>idioms to separate it from others. But I could be mistaken.

Perhaps "dialectical pronounciation" would better express the idea,
which is that the pronounciation differs in different groups, whether
the words used do or not. Then again, perhaps the proper term is
something else altogether.
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 00:02:04 +0200, Troels Forchhammer
<Troels.RemoveThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> wrote:

<snippo>

>Of course my real hope was to learn how Tolkien would have pronounced
>'stoor', though lacking that, standard English is quite OK

Aren't there recordings of JRRT? Do they include "stoor"? I mean, if
such a recording exists, that would be pretty definitive, would it
not?
--
"A portent, therefore, happens not contrary to nature,
but contrary to what we know as nature."
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

Tom Hook wrote:

> I have not had the pleasure of tasting that dish although I have had
> the pleasure many years ago of visiting the Maritime Provinces (all of
> them even Newfoundland...). Nova Scotia was my favorite where once
> looking down from the cliffs of Cape Breton, I saw eagles soaring
> between me and the water below. JRRT would have been impressed, I
> certainly was. Quite a sight, quite a lovely place.

Eagles are pretty commonplace around here But looking _down_ on them,
would always be impressive! We have a pair and a single eagle that are
year-round residents close by.
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

(Everything I say here concerns RP.)

Troels Forchhammer <Troels.RemoveThis@ThisIsFake.invalid> writes:

> As far as I understand, you're using SAMPA notaion, right?

If I had been careful enough to have checked, I would have been using
SAMPA. In fact, I was using intuitive IPA in ASCII, which we used on
the net before some bunch of geeks codified it into SAMPA! But yes, I
hope that everything I wrote was also correct in SAMPA.

> This, /-O:/, seems common for all the '-oor' words that I can find,
> though a couple of them have the /U@/ as an alternative.

The monomorphemic '-oor' words in English are boor, door, floor, moor,
poor, spoor. I use /O:/ for 'floor' and 'door' (as does everybody),
and I use /U@/ for the rest. I think most people use now /O:/ for all of
them, but I like to make it clear whether I'm calling somebody a
'bore' or a 'boor'!
Of the words I pronounce with /U@/, the OED second edition records
the /O:/ variant for 'moor' and 'poor', with the others only recorded
as /U@/. (In fact, it records /O@/, not /O:/, but as I said in the
previous posting that's obsolete - and was on its way to obsolescence
when the OED was first compiled, never mind in the second edition!)

> Obviously I've been using the /-U@/ version for both 'poor' and
> 'moor' (I'll insist that's what my teacher taught me back when I was
> at school, years ago) and have been applying that to 'stoor' as well.
> Of course my real hope was to learn how Tolkien would have pronounced
> 'stoor', though lacking that, standard English is quite OK

Tolkien's English was basically conservative RP, although he had a
number of oddities, maybe coming from less-standard aspects of the
Midlands pronunciation, or maybe just idiosyncratic. If I remember
rightly, there's a fairly detailed analysis of his pronunciation in
"An Introduction to Elvish", which I don't have in the office.
I'm very confident that he said /stU@/.
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

Julian Bradfield wrote:

> The monomorphemic '-oor' words in English are boor, door, floor, moor,
> poor, spoor. I use /O:/ for 'floor' and 'door' (as does everybody),
> and I use /U@/ for the rest. I think most people use now /O:/ for all of
> them, but I like to make it clear whether I'm calling somebody a
> 'bore' or a 'boor'!

That comes as a complete surprise to me. I _have_ heard "poor" pronounced
with /O:/ - particularly by Americans - but I've never heard "moor"
and "spoor" pronounced that way (and who uses boor? - that probably gets
the /O:/ treatment because the average person using it doesn't even realize
it's a different word from "bore").
--
derek
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up 

"Michelle J. Haines" <mhaines.TakeThisOut@nanc.com> writes:

> Julian Bradfield wrote:
>> Firstly, there's no difference (in RP either today or a hundred years
>> ago) between the vowels of 'floor' and 'store'. Today, they're also
>> the same as the vowel of 'flaw'.

> I quite assure you, that while I saw "floor" and "store" the same way,
> I do not saw "flaw" using the same vowel at all.

Do you claim to speak RP?
 >> Stay informed about: Something doesn't add up